Yeah, so first G1 cheated on his wife Sophia Dorothea of Celle with Melusine, then she cheated on him, then because of double standards, her lover got "disappeared" one night while she got locked up and forbidden to see her children for the rest of her life (some 30 years).
That is some spectacular double standards.
Because when your husband locks you up for decades because you cheated on him, and your lover was murdered in connection with this, you might be highly motivated to help overthrow him! SDC would have been a very powerful piece in the chess game of Hanovers vs. Jacobites, and G1 knew this.
Ah, okay, that makes sense.
the Jacobites tried to drag C12 into the mess too, but he was having none of it
I just read about that, actually! According to my source (Daniel Szechi) Sweden was actively flirting with the Jacobites because of being at war with Hanover. Maybe they never actually meant to commit, but still, it was probably a good way of getting concessions from Britain/Hanover just to make them stop considering it. Quoting from Szechi's book:
In February 1715, a syndicate of forty Tory financiers secretly offered to provide Sweden with a much needed loan of £200,000 (a huge sum in contemporary terms) on the understanding that Charles XII would invade Britain as soon as he could.¹⁰ The Swedes were definitely interested, but nothing was concluded before the ’15 intervened. When the dust settled on that affair, however, it was likely that the two sides would re-engage, and this indeed proved to be the case in August 1716 when the overtures of the Swedish ambassador to Paris, Count Erik Sparre, drew a prompt, positive response from the Jacobites. Within a short time the Swedish ambassador to Britain, Count Karl Gyllenborg, and his superior, Charles XII’s éminence grise, Baron Georg Heinrich von Görtz, were deeply involved in talks with prominent Jacobites, such as Atterbury and Mar, in Britain and France. As in 1715, what the Jacobites were offering was a substantial loan to be raised by the Jacobite movement in Britain and the diaspora in return for a Swedish invasion of northern England by an army of about 10,000 men.¹¹ The Swedish diplomats, while sympathetic to the Jacobites’ objectives, refused definitively to commit their master to waging war directly on Britain, but the negotiations nonetheless proceeded.¹²
In 1717, Charles was given a "loan" of £90,000 pounds, but then G1 got wind of it and arrested Gyllenborg. Charles had never made a real commitment but I'm sure he appreciated the money. Then later negotiations started up again, Spain also got into the deal, but then Charles was shot.
Maybe you had read all this already! I see that a few of the references are to Hatton but not all of them.
Yep, have read about this in multiple places! My sources agree that while Gyllenborg and Görtz got involved in talks with the Jacobites and borrowed money, as soon as Charles found out, he was like, "Nope, nope, nope, I don't overthrow hereditary monarchs, and you have to pay that money back to the Jacobites pronto." (Elective monarchs were fine to overthrow, which was why he was all about forcing an election to put his own puppet on the throne of Poland. Election just didn't carry as much sacred legitimacy with him.)
But some points my sources differ on.
Hatton says that when Görtz got arrested in connection with his Jacobite conspiring, it wasn't because G1 thought there was a serious threat from Sweden, but because G1 wanted to use the threat of a conspiracy to rally his supporters around him.
Whereas another source (I forget, but probably Henrik Lunde), says that while Charles would never overthrow a hereditary monarch, he wasn't above keeping G1 guessing about whether he would use the Swedish invasion of Norway (the campaign that C12 died in) to invade Scotland from across the North Sea. That threat would force the Brits to divert ships to patrolling the North Sea, which would mean less naval force in the main theater of operations, the Baltic Sea, which was what Charles really cared about.
What is true, I do not know.
(I've also read that Charles hedged in other cases that if there was an *internal* resurrection and a king got overthrown, he might decide to support the new king on the grounds "will of the people" and all that. But here we're getting into the part where I've read several secondary sources on Charles but haven't done a deep dive into reliability.)
Did he pay the money back, though? And yeah, I also got the bit where diverting RN from the Baltic is what C12 really cared about here.
Oh, and you might appreciate this hilarious bit from the same book:
The last encounter between the Jacobites and Sweden, in 1784, was motivated, however, not by any desire to restore Charles Edward (by then Charles ‘III’) to his putative thrones, but by Gustav III’s obsession with the notion of gaining control of Europe’s network of Freemasons. Swedish Masonic mythology ascribed to Charles Edward the secret headship of the ‘Templar’ Masonic order. Gustav correspondingly believed Charles could supply him with the authority to command the allegiance of these lodges from one end of the Continent to the other. Charles Edward, who knew of the legend and that it was bogus but was running short of drinking money, duly milked him of some ready cash and required Gustav to arrange a financial separation with Charles Edward’s estranged wife, Louise von Stolberg. Gustav successfully accomplished this, then persuaded Charles to transfer his ‘authority’ and promptly decamped, leaving Charles Edward waiting in vain for the lucrative payments he had been led to expect.²²
Oh, right, I remember this! I think it's in Horowski. Or someone else, but I remember reading it in German, and he's our hilarious tidbits guy.
(I may well have learned it in my Jacobite days*, but if so I forgot and had to relearn it in the last 2 years.)
* I did actually read a lot about the Jacobite+various weird societies/legends/occult connections, so it's quite likely I got this anecdote but forgot, since at the time I had no idea who Gustav III was.
Did he pay the money back, though?
According to Hatton, yes! The sum given to Sparre was promptly repaid at Charles' order as soon as he found out about it, and the money Görtz acquired privately was gradually paid back by the Swedish crown, with interest, until it was fully paid back in 1755.
And sorry for yet again skewing the subject towards Jacobites, ha ha. I really did appreciate learning about G1 and his wife!
(Btw, just read a further book on Jacobites, are you interested in me summing up the bits of it that were new to me and posting here? Might not be new to you, of course.)
Jacobites are just as on-topic as G1, no apologies! It's difficult to go off-topic in salon. Jacobites are even in cahn's description of what this post is all about! (I've been chuckling about how we had 30 consecutive Frederick the Great posts for over two years, then one "Frederick the Great and Other 18th-C Characters", and have quickly progressed to "18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great.")
Yes, share all your Jacobite findings! Some might be new to me, but all will be new to cahn!
Haha, I am totally interested in learning about the Jacobites now (especially now that I'm reading Heron)! But regardless, you should definitely go for it! :D ETA: that should be, of course, I'm glad you went for it :D
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Re: Sophia Dorothea of Celle, the Hatton take
That is some spectacular double standards.
Because when your husband locks you up for decades because you cheated on him, and your lover was murdered in connection with this, you might be highly motivated to help overthrow him! SDC would have been a very powerful piece in the chess game of Hanovers vs. Jacobites, and G1 knew this.
Ah, okay, that makes sense.
the Jacobites tried to drag C12 into the mess too, but he was having none of it
I just read about that, actually! According to my source (Daniel Szechi) Sweden was actively flirting with the Jacobites because of being at war with Hanover. Maybe they never actually meant to commit, but still, it was probably a good way of getting concessions from Britain/Hanover just to make them stop considering it. Quoting from Szechi's book:
In February 1715, a syndicate of forty Tory financiers secretly offered to provide Sweden with a much needed loan of £200,000 (a huge sum in contemporary terms) on the understanding that Charles XII would invade Britain as soon as he could.¹⁰ The Swedes were definitely interested, but nothing was concluded before the ’15 intervened. When the dust settled on that affair, however, it was likely that the two sides would re-engage, and this indeed proved to be the case in August 1716 when the overtures of the Swedish ambassador to Paris, Count Erik Sparre, drew a prompt, positive response from the Jacobites. Within a short time the Swedish ambassador to Britain, Count Karl Gyllenborg, and his superior, Charles XII’s éminence grise, Baron Georg Heinrich von Görtz, were deeply involved in talks with prominent Jacobites, such as Atterbury and Mar, in Britain and France. As in 1715, what the Jacobites were offering was a substantial loan to be raised by the Jacobite movement in Britain and the diaspora in return for a Swedish invasion of northern England by an army of about 10,000 men.¹¹ The Swedish diplomats, while sympathetic to the Jacobites’ objectives, refused definitively to commit their master to waging war directly on Britain, but the negotiations nonetheless proceeded.¹²
In 1717, Charles was given a "loan" of £90,000 pounds, but then G1 got wind of it and arrested Gyllenborg. Charles had never made a real commitment but I'm sure he appreciated the money. Then later negotiations started up again, Spain also got into the deal, but then Charles was shot.
Maybe you had read all this already! I see that a few of the references are to Hatton but not all of them.
Charles XII and the Jacobites
But some points my sources differ on.
Hatton says that when Görtz got arrested in connection with his Jacobite conspiring, it wasn't because G1 thought there was a serious threat from Sweden, but because G1 wanted to use the threat of a conspiracy to rally his supporters around him.
Whereas another source (I forget, but probably Henrik Lunde), says that while Charles would never overthrow a hereditary monarch, he wasn't above keeping G1 guessing about whether he would use the Swedish invasion of Norway (the campaign that C12 died in) to invade Scotland from across the North Sea. That threat would force the Brits to divert ships to patrolling the North Sea, which would mean less naval force in the main theater of operations, the Baltic Sea, which was what Charles really cared about.
What is true, I do not know.
(I've also read that Charles hedged in other cases that if there was an *internal* resurrection and a king got overthrown, he might decide to support the new king on the grounds "will of the people" and all that. But here we're getting into the part where I've read several secondary sources on Charles but haven't done a deep dive into reliability.)
Re: Charles XII and the Jacobites
Oh, and you might appreciate this hilarious bit from the same book:
The last encounter between the Jacobites and Sweden, in 1784, was motivated, however, not by any desire to restore Charles Edward (by then Charles ‘III’) to his putative thrones, but by Gustav III’s obsession with the notion of gaining control of Europe’s network of Freemasons. Swedish Masonic mythology ascribed to Charles Edward the secret headship of the ‘Templar’ Masonic order. Gustav correspondingly believed Charles could supply him with the authority to command the allegiance of these lodges from one end of the Continent to the other. Charles Edward, who knew of the legend and that it was bogus but was running short of drinking money, duly milked him of some ready cash and required Gustav to arrange a financial separation with Charles Edward’s estranged wife, Louise von Stolberg. Gustav successfully accomplished this, then persuaded Charles to transfer his ‘authority’ and promptly decamped, leaving Charles Edward waiting in vain for the lucrative payments he had been led to expect.²²
Re: Charles XII and the Jacobites
(I may well have learned it in my Jacobite days*, but if so I forgot and had to relearn it in the last 2 years.)
* I did actually read a lot about the Jacobite+various weird societies/legends/occult connections, so it's quite likely I got this anecdote but forgot, since at the time I had no idea who Gustav III was.
Did he pay the money back, though?
According to Hatton, yes! The sum given to Sparre was promptly repaid at Charles' order as soon as he found out about it, and the money Görtz acquired privately was gradually paid back by the Swedish crown, with interest, until it was fully paid back in 1755.
Re: Charles XII and the Jacobites
And sorry for yet again skewing the subject towards Jacobites, ha ha. I really did appreciate learning about G1 and his wife!
(Btw, just read a further book on Jacobites, are you interested in me summing up the bits of it that were new to me and posting here? Might not be new to you, of course.)
Re: Charles XII and the Jacobites
Yes, share all your Jacobite findings! Some might be new to me, but all will be new to
Re: Charles XII and the Jacobites