You will if I have anything to say about it!!! :DDD
My face is hurting from all the smiling today.
I've been wanting those too and have already asked them about that when I visited in August! They gave me the e-mail adress of Dr. Maria von Katte
!!!!
You're way ahead of me. Asking for this has been on my to-do list for a while, but...yeah. I know how it feels to be super awkward about asking.
The brochure from Wust says he wrote a letter to his, quote, "Engelsschwesterken" when he was a child and I just about died and need more context for this."
ZOMG, yes, we extremely need this.
selenak sent me a copy of the Hans Heinrich brochure, btw, but not the fuller one, from which she translated the two letters from Hans Heinrich about his struggles to forgive FW.
I hoped that she would show up to the thing on Saturday (apparently she does vistit Wust at times) so I could ask in person and use my big shiny student eyes to convince her to help me, but she didn't (show up, that is).
Oh, man. You know the other thing we need? Apparently at least one painting by Hans Hermann survives and is in the Katte collection and was on display in an exhibition some years ago, but I've never even seen a picture of it so I don't know what it's even a painting of!
But manuscripts come first, definitely get your hands on all the manuscripts and letters you can. :D
I'm not sure if we are on that level of friendship yet :'DD
Ahahhaha, yes, wait until you're interning for the crypt restorer guy. (Doooo iiiit! Although also definitely get a job at the auction house, just in case something comes along! It's still too bad about the book you found online that Katte owned and inscribed. Even with my recent raise and offer to help buy salon books, though, 2000 euros for a book is a bit outside my price range. :'D)
I'm at work right now, so I'm not in the best headspace to concentrate on this, but I'll get back to it later :D
Awesome, thank you!
The article about the Franckesche Stiftungen is here. Apparently it's partially a reaction to Roes' depiction of the school in Zeithain :'D Dr. Grunewald did not like that one, according to the Wust people.
Lololol, that's hilarious! Well, we found indirect evidence that Hans Heinrich had no problem with Hans Hermann playing the flute, so we consider that slander. :'D
Aaah, thank you! :DD I'm still working on chapter 3, getting shit done is not my strong suit.
I can't throw stones! My fic output has been woeful lately. I really just want someone to nag and encourage me about the two nonfiction articles-in-progress. It's sooo tedious looking up tons of references in two languages I barely know, half of them in a font that makes me cry. This is not going to get done unless someone is asking me every week, "Hey, Mildred, when it's it going to be done? The world needs more Keith and Fredersdorf!"
If you want more old timey german and more Katte there's the one shot i wrote... :'D aka The Sad Thing I Published
Oh, right! Also on my to-read list when my German is just a little better. (I couldn't resist the road trip, even though I had to download it and convert it to a pdf to be able to read it--road trips are my jam!)
apparently the one in Golzow, where Katte's sister (and her husband, Rochow. The historically relevant of the two.) is buried, has been subject to, uh... incredible violence. I'm talking heads ripped off of mummies.
Wow. I didn't know where she was buried, thank you! And zomg. Is her head ripped off, do you know?
If you know/find out where Peter Keith was buried, let us know! It's kind of funny we know his even more obscure wife's burial place, but not his.
I'll tell them you'd be happy to have new contributors over here. Gotta admit though, the salon is a little intimidating to, I quote, "humble shitposters" :'D
Hee, but we welcome humble shitposting! We have come up with playlists and sorted them into Hogwarts houses and whatnot!
I'm afraid to go over to Discord both because I'm working 40 hours again these days, and also because I'm of the opinion that all Frederician discussion should take place in salon where we can track it and consolidate it in Rheinsberg. :D
I saw Wilhelmine's travel diary too, thought about buying it :DD Good to see you've got it covered!
Nag me and the digitizing and translating will go faster! I respond well to external encouragement when I have to do super tedious things!
I'll keep an eye out for the prussian archives too ^^
Sweet! You are the best and welcome back! Please don't be intimidated by us and spend as much time here being as frivolous as you want! (And also transcriber, ilu so much, tell us everything!)
Also, get us those manuscripts! I have a very specific point I need to research about whether Katte went to Madrid like Kloosterhuis said Martin von Katte said Hans Heinrich said he did, or not!
(Now that I'm reading Kloosterhuis, researching his sources on Rottembourg is on my to-do list, because I need to compare their reliability to the reliability of the sources that are telling me Rottembourg wasn't in Madrid that year. Also the Schulenburgs, I need to research the contradictions between Kloosterhuis' genealogy and Wikipedia's. So much salon, so little time! My number one priority is I need to finish studying German so I can start studying French!)
Oh, if the Wust people have any definitive proof for the claim that Ludolf von Katte married Mme. du Rosey in 1755, that would be awesome. Lehndorff says his hopes of marrying her are fading in 1753, so if it took her another 2 years to marry Ludolf, that would be super interesting.
(Now that I'm reading Kloosterhuis, researching his sources on Rottembourg is on my to-do list, because I need to compare their reliability to the reliability of the sources that are telling me Rottembourg wasn't in Madrid that year.
I found the book Kloosterhuis cited for this claim. Snippet view shows me it does indeed say 1727-1734 in Madrid, and there's a footnote I can't view. Since the book costs 75 euros, I've put in a request with my local Interlibrary Loan, and we'll see what happens. (I send them such obscure requests that 50% get canceled because they can't find a library willing to lend, but this one seems easier to acquire, so fingers crossed.) It's a 2004 secondary source that seems reputable, but my 19th century collection of instructions to French ambassadors still seems more reliable. But until I see the footnote, I will reserve judgment.
Also the Schulenburgs, I need to research the contradictions between Kloosterhuis' genealogy and Wikipedia's.
This one I tracked down, and it really looks like Wikipedia is right and Kloosterhuis is wrong! (Oh, how the mighty have fallen. :P)
Kloosterhuis:
Über seine Großmutter väterlicherseits, Eva Auguste von Stammer, war Hans Hermann von Katte mit dieser altadligen Familie verwandt, denn deren Schwester Anna Elisabeth hatte den brandenburgischen Kammerpräsidenten Gustav Adolf von der Schulenburg geheiratet. Von dessen Kindern war insbesondere Matthias Johann von der Schulenburg...berühmt geworden; nicht minder seine Schwester Ehrengard Melusine unter dem Titel einer Herzogin von Kendal.
Through his paternal grandmother, Eva Auguste von Stammer, Hans Hermann von Katte was related with this old noble family, since her sister Anna Elisabeth had married the Brandenburg chamber-president Gustav Adolf von der Schulenburg. Of their children, Matthias Johann von der Schulenburg especially became famous; not less his sister Ehrengard Melusine under the title Duchess of Kendal.
He cites Georg Schmidt, Das Geschlecht von der Schulenburg, II. Teil: Die Stammreihe, Beetzendorf 1899, 416 – 418.
I tracked that down on FamilySearch, and the page in question says his first wife was Petronella Ottilie Schwenken, and his second wife was Anna Elisabeth von Stammer. The children of the first marriage include Matthias Johann and Ehrengard Melusine. The children of the second marriage do not. The fact that Melusine's mother was the wife named Petronella is also way more consistent with her daughter being Petronella than her being descended from the other wife.
So in this case, Kloosterhuis' source doesn't say what he says it does.
There's also the part where he might be right, but he's not telling me where to find the info that Anna Elisabeth and Eva Auguste were sisters. Schmidt says Anna Elisabeth's parents were Jürgen Arnd auf Wörmlitz, Wedelitz, and Ballenstedt, and Anna Elisabeth von Königsmarck. Schmidt says nothing about Eva Auguste's parentage, but this other 19th century, possibly wrong, source (Nachrichten zur Geschichte des Geschlechts derer von Rochow und ihrer Besitzungen, by Adolph Friedrich August von Rochow, 1861) says Eva Auguste's parents were Hans Heinrich von Stammer and Margarethe Judith von Benningsen.
So even now that I've gotten away from Wikipedia and online genealogy sites that probably draw on Wikipedia or vice versa, I'm still not seeing how Eva Auguste and Anna Elisabeth were related. And all evidence points to Melusine and Katte being related by marriage, not blood. Evidently they kept close enough ties for him to call her "Aunt", but that kind of thing happens in families.
(And yes, I will get to the Melusine write-up at some point, now that I'm winding down on the Great Northern War. Also SDC!)
Oh, what the heck, I'll do the "best of" for Melusine now, and the rest only if I get inspired and have time.
Of most interest to salon:
Melusine was apparently a stickler when it came to proper behavior. We've seen that she was a regular churchgoer, and increasingly devout in her later years, and Hatton speculates that her breaking the silence about her illegitimate daughters in her will is because of the religious context of the will, where she didn't feel she could tell a lie.
New examples have emerged: G1 appears to have been more forgiving than Melusine of their eldest daughter, who took lovers and was divorced when her husband caught her in flagrante. G1 granted the divorce and gave her a title (Gräfin von Delitz). In later years, he gave her a small palace, and in a record in which he's drawing a money order from the Hanoverian treasury for her use, George asks that this 'be done without the knowledge of the Duchess of Kendal' (i.e. her mother Melusine).
Moreover:
She disapproved so strongly of the gambling habits of Philip Dormer Stanhope 4th earl of Chesterfield, who married young Melusine, that he was too scared to confess his losses at cards during a visit to Bath: he pretended he had not played at all.
In her will:
The sums donated to nephews and nieces were quite modest (£300 to each); and the somewhat straitlaced attitude of Melusine as she got older (which we have already noticed in her dislike of gambling for high stakes) is evident in her leaving out one nephew from the list of bequests with the explanation that she did so because he had married against his parents' wishes.
Why is this relevant? Well, Selena pointed out that historical Katte was obviously willing to brave (relative) poverty in exile for Fritz, since he had to know Aunt Melusine might not be willing to host/bankroll him indefinitely.
But now that I've read these examples, I'm not convinced she would have given a deserter and flouter of his father's wishes anything! Remember, Hans Heinrich didn't want his son leaving Prussian service for British even without it being desertion. (And Hans Hermann was reprimanded for overstaying his leave.)
And this is of course relevant to any AU in which he shows up in England in 1730. :D (As an out for the author who needs one, there's always Petronella/young Melusine, whom he was infatuated1, and who might have found a way to get him some money.)
Speaking of Petronella/young Melusine, Hatton tells me that she and her mother were inseparable, and that they continued living together even after young Melusine married Chesterfield. And that young Melusine seems not to have lived with her husband:
Young Melusine's marriage seems to have made little difference: there is hardly a mention of her in Chesterfield, Letters, and her husband's biographers have concluded that, though he behaved towards her with great politeness in society, they lived more or less apart. The duchess of Kendal could not have approved of him; in her will of 1743 she makes sure that he cannot touch any of the money left to the younger Melusine.
Things you would not have guessed!
1. The original Selena summary said "had a fling with", but the text reads "umschwärmte". I take it to mean he was admiring her, with no implications as to whether or not she reciprocated. And while my German admittedly misses a lot of nuances like this, summarizing from memory is also a feature of Selena summaries (just like Mildred summaries), so I'm asking. Do we know from "umschwärmte" whether they had a fling?
Tangent: Oh, and this is interesting. Rereading that passage, Kloosterhuis describes Petronella Melusine as a relative ("Verwandte") of the duchess of Kendal, not a daughter. He cites Schmidt again, who, remember, is writing in 1899. And remember that Hatton told us that the equation of the "nieces" of Melusine with her illegitimate children by G1 was recent as of 1978.
Ooh, Schmidt is saying that that the ADB erroneously says that she was the illegitimate daughter of G1 and Melusine. And Kloosterhuis seems to be going along with this. Okay, guys, but Hatton cites evidence and you don't, so...Schmidt might be 19th century whitewashing and Kloosterhuis might be trustingly following him. Evidence or it didn't happen!
(I may not be able to read entire books or even essays in old-fashioned German font yet, but I can do detective work like this now, which is a huge step forward in terms of my productivity!)
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Re: A mixture of stuff, mostly Katte related
You will if I have anything to say about it!!! :DDD
My face is hurting from all the smiling today.
I've been wanting those too and have already asked them about that when I visited in August! They gave me the e-mail adress of Dr. Maria von Katte
!!!!
You're way ahead of me. Asking for this has been on my to-do list for a while, but...yeah. I know how it feels to be super awkward about asking.
The brochure from Wust says he wrote a letter to his, quote, "Engelsschwesterken" when he was a child and I just about died and need more context for this."
ZOMG, yes, we extremely need this.
I hoped that she would show up to the thing on Saturday (apparently she does vistit Wust at times) so I could ask in person and use my big shiny student eyes to convince her to help me, but she didn't (show up, that is).
Oh, man. You know the other thing we need? Apparently at least one painting by Hans Hermann survives and is in the Katte collection and was on display in an exhibition some years ago, but I've never even seen a picture of it so I don't know what it's even a painting of!
But manuscripts come first, definitely get your hands on all the manuscripts and letters you can. :D
I'm not sure if we are on that level of friendship yet :'DD
Ahahhaha, yes, wait until you're interning for the crypt restorer guy. (Doooo iiiit! Although also definitely get a job at the auction house, just in case something comes along! It's still too bad about the book you found online that Katte owned and inscribed. Even with my recent raise and offer to help buy salon books, though, 2000 euros for a book is a bit outside my price range. :'D)
I'm at work right now, so I'm not in the best headspace to concentrate on this, but I'll get back to it later :D
Awesome, thank you!
The article about the Franckesche Stiftungen is here. Apparently it's partially a reaction to Roes' depiction of the school in Zeithain :'D Dr. Grunewald did not like that one, according to the Wust people.
Lololol, that's hilarious! Well, we found indirect evidence that Hans Heinrich had no problem with Hans Hermann playing the flute, so we consider that slander. :'D
Aaah, thank you! :DD I'm still working on chapter 3, getting shit done is not my strong suit.
I can't throw stones! My fic output has been woeful lately. I really just want someone to nag and encourage me about the two nonfiction articles-in-progress. It's sooo tedious looking up tons of references in two languages I barely know, half of them in a font that makes me cry. This is not going to get done unless someone is asking me every week, "Hey, Mildred, when it's it going to be done? The world needs more Keith and Fredersdorf!"
If you want more old timey german and more Katte there's the one shot i wrote... :'D aka The Sad Thing I Published
Oh, right! Also on my to-read list when my German is just a little better. (I couldn't resist the road trip, even though I had to download it and convert it to a pdf to be able to read it--road trips are my jam!)
apparently the one in Golzow, where Katte's sister (and her husband, Rochow. The historically relevant of the two.) is buried, has been subject to, uh... incredible violence. I'm talking heads ripped off of mummies.
Wow. I didn't know where she was buried, thank you! And zomg. Is her head ripped off, do you know?
If you know/find out where Peter Keith was buried, let us know! It's kind of funny we know his even more obscure wife's burial place, but not his.
I'll tell them you'd be happy to have new contributors over here. Gotta admit though, the salon is a little intimidating to, I quote, "humble shitposters" :'D
Hee, but we welcome humble shitposting! We have come up with playlists and sorted them into Hogwarts houses and whatnot!
I'm afraid to go over to Discord both because I'm working 40 hours again these days, and also because I'm of the opinion that all Frederician discussion should take place in salon where we can track it and consolidate it in Rheinsberg. :D
I saw Wilhelmine's travel diary too, thought about buying it :DD Good to see you've got it covered!
Nag me and the digitizing and translating will go faster! I respond well to external encouragement when I have to do super tedious things!
I'll keep an eye out for the prussian archives too ^^
Sweet! You are the best and welcome back! Please don't be intimidated by us and spend as much time here being as frivolous as you want! (And also transcriber, ilu so much, tell us everything!)
Also, get us those manuscripts! I have a very specific point I need to research about whether Katte went to Madrid like Kloosterhuis said Martin von Katte said Hans Heinrich said he did, or not!
(Now that I'm reading Kloosterhuis, researching his sources on Rottembourg is on my to-do list, because I need to compare their reliability to the reliability of the sources that are telling me Rottembourg wasn't in Madrid that year. Also the Schulenburgs, I need to research the contradictions between Kloosterhuis' genealogy and Wikipedia's. So much salon, so little time! My number one priority is I need to finish studying German so I can start studying French!)
Oh, if the Wust people have any definitive proof for the claim that Ludolf von Katte married Mme. du Rosey in 1755, that would be awesome. Lehndorff says his hopes of marrying her are fading in 1753, so if it took her another 2 years to marry Ludolf, that would be super interesting.
Schulenburgs and Rottembourgs
I found the book Kloosterhuis cited for this claim. Snippet view shows me it does indeed say 1727-1734 in Madrid, and there's a footnote I can't view. Since the book costs 75 euros, I've put in a request with my local Interlibrary Loan, and we'll see what happens. (I send them such obscure requests that 50% get canceled because they can't find a library willing to lend, but this one seems easier to acquire, so fingers crossed.) It's a 2004 secondary source that seems reputable, but my 19th century collection of instructions to French ambassadors still seems more reliable. But until I see the footnote, I will reserve judgment.
Also the Schulenburgs, I need to research the contradictions between Kloosterhuis' genealogy and Wikipedia's.
This one I tracked down, and it really looks like Wikipedia is right and Kloosterhuis is wrong! (Oh, how the mighty have fallen. :P)
Kloosterhuis:
Über seine Großmutter väterlicherseits, Eva Auguste von Stammer, war Hans Hermann von Katte mit dieser altadligen Familie verwandt, denn deren Schwester Anna Elisabeth hatte den brandenburgischen Kammerpräsidenten Gustav Adolf von der Schulenburg geheiratet. Von dessen Kindern war insbesondere Matthias Johann von der Schulenburg...berühmt geworden; nicht minder seine Schwester Ehrengard Melusine unter dem Titel einer Herzogin von Kendal.
Through his paternal grandmother, Eva Auguste von Stammer, Hans Hermann von Katte was related with this old noble family, since her sister Anna Elisabeth had married the Brandenburg chamber-president Gustav Adolf von der Schulenburg. Of their children, Matthias Johann von der Schulenburg especially became famous; not less his sister Ehrengard Melusine under the title Duchess of Kendal.
He cites Georg Schmidt, Das Geschlecht von der Schulenburg, II. Teil: Die Stammreihe, Beetzendorf 1899, 416 – 418.
I tracked that down on FamilySearch, and the page in question says his first wife was Petronella Ottilie Schwenken, and his second wife was Anna Elisabeth von Stammer. The children of the first marriage include Matthias Johann and Ehrengard Melusine. The children of the second marriage do not. The fact that Melusine's mother was the wife named Petronella is also way more consistent with her daughter being Petronella than her being descended from the other wife.
So in this case, Kloosterhuis' source doesn't say what he says it does.
There's also the part where he might be right, but he's not telling me where to find the info that Anna Elisabeth and Eva Auguste were sisters. Schmidt says Anna Elisabeth's parents were Jürgen Arnd auf Wörmlitz, Wedelitz, and Ballenstedt, and Anna Elisabeth von Königsmarck. Schmidt says nothing about Eva Auguste's parentage, but this other 19th century, possibly wrong, source (Nachrichten zur Geschichte des Geschlechts derer von Rochow und ihrer Besitzungen, by Adolph Friedrich August von Rochow, 1861) says Eva Auguste's parents were Hans Heinrich von Stammer and Margarethe Judith von Benningsen.
So even now that I've gotten away from Wikipedia and online genealogy sites that probably draw on Wikipedia or vice versa, I'm still not seeing how Eva Auguste and Anna Elisabeth were related. And all evidence points to Melusine and Katte being related by marriage, not blood. Evidently they kept close enough ties for him to call her "Aunt", but that kind of thing happens in families.
(And yes, I will get to the Melusine write-up at some point, now that I'm winding down on the Great Northern War. Also SDC!)
Melusine
Of most interest to salon:
Melusine was apparently a stickler when it came to proper behavior. We've seen that she was a regular churchgoer, and increasingly devout in her later years, and Hatton speculates that her breaking the silence about her illegitimate daughters in her will is because of the religious context of the will, where she didn't feel she could tell a lie.
New examples have emerged: G1 appears to have been more forgiving than Melusine of their eldest daughter, who took lovers and was divorced when her husband caught her in flagrante. G1 granted the divorce and gave her a title (Gräfin von Delitz). In later years, he gave her a small palace, and in a record in which he's drawing a money order from the Hanoverian treasury for her use, George asks that this 'be done without the knowledge of the Duchess of Kendal' (i.e. her mother Melusine).
Moreover:
She disapproved so strongly of the gambling habits of Philip Dormer Stanhope 4th earl of Chesterfield, who married young Melusine, that he was too scared to confess his losses at cards during a visit to Bath: he pretended he had not played at all.
In her will:
The sums donated to nephews and nieces were quite modest (£300 to each); and the somewhat straitlaced attitude of Melusine as she got older (which we have already noticed in her dislike of gambling for high stakes) is evident in her leaving out one nephew from the list of bequests with the explanation that she did so because he had married against his parents' wishes.
Why is this relevant? Well, Selena pointed out that historical Katte was obviously willing to brave (relative) poverty in exile for Fritz, since he had to know Aunt Melusine might not be willing to host/bankroll him indefinitely.
But now that I've read these examples, I'm not convinced she would have given a deserter and flouter of his father's wishes anything! Remember, Hans Heinrich didn't want his son leaving Prussian service for British even without it being desertion. (And Hans Hermann was reprimanded for overstaying his leave.)
And this is of course relevant to any AU in which he shows up in England in 1730. :D (As an out for the author who needs one, there's always Petronella/young Melusine, whom he was infatuated1, and who might have found a way to get him some money.)
Speaking of Petronella/young Melusine, Hatton tells me that she and her mother were inseparable, and that they continued living together even after young Melusine married Chesterfield. And that young Melusine seems not to have lived with her husband:
Young Melusine's marriage seems to have made little difference: there is hardly a mention of her in Chesterfield, Letters, and her husband's biographers have concluded that, though he behaved towards her with great politeness in society, they lived more or less apart. The duchess of Kendal could not have approved of him; in her will of 1743 she makes sure that he cannot touch any of the money left to the younger Melusine.
Things you would not have guessed!
1. The original Selena summary said "had a fling with", but the text reads "umschwärmte". I take it to mean he was admiring her, with no implications as to whether or not she reciprocated. And while my German admittedly misses a lot of nuances like this, summarizing from memory is also a feature of Selena summaries (just like Mildred summaries), so I'm asking. Do we know from "umschwärmte" whether they had a fling?
Tangent: Oh, and this is interesting. Rereading that passage, Kloosterhuis describes Petronella Melusine as a relative ("Verwandte") of the duchess of Kendal, not a daughter. He cites Schmidt again, who, remember, is writing in 1899. And remember that Hatton told us that the equation of the "nieces" of Melusine with her illegitimate children by G1 was recent as of 1978.
Ooh, Schmidt is saying that that the ADB erroneously says that she was the illegitimate daughter of G1 and Melusine. And Kloosterhuis seems to be going along with this. Okay, guys, but Hatton cites evidence and you don't, so...Schmidt might be 19th century whitewashing and Kloosterhuis might be trustingly following him. Evidence or it didn't happen!
(I may not be able to read entire books or even essays in old-fashioned German font yet, but I can do detective work like this now, which is a huge step forward in terms of my productivity!)