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18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 32
:) Still talking about Charles XII of Sweden / the Great Northern War and the Stuarts and the Jacobites, among other things!
Selena, do you have a counter perspective on this, or is the illegal seizing and exporting of treasures a thing that FS did the moment he got the chance?
Honestly, I have no idea. I don't recall it from the MT and Joseph biographies that I've read, but then it's not something important to either of their lives, so their biographers would have no need to mention it. I really should get around to that FS biography his German wiki entry mentions anyway. And/or to a Leopold biography since you want me to read one anyway, because without having any date to back this up, my instinct is to point out that Leopold, who actually lived in Tuscany most of the time for decades before becoming Emperor, would have had far more opportunity and motive to select art treasury to take with him to Vienna than FS, who didn't live in Tuscany and thus would have to rely on minions to make a good selection. (For a given value of "good".) One possible source to look at would be the catalogue of the various art and treasury collections in the various palaces (Schönbrunn, or the one in Innsbruck which was also a former Lorraine owned seat and FS' favourite) which these days usually lit the provenience (i.e. where a given painting came from, and when).
I could see arguments either way, especially considering the common attitude for non Italian aristocrats visiting Italy in the 18th century was "cheap Italian art to be had! Yay!" (see also Wilhelmine writing to Fritz that she'd send him so many more things if it weren't for the cost of transport, because you could get the most amazing things for a bread and butter, and of course Sir William Hamilton taking a lot of antiquities to Britain over the decades), and FS when becoming Duke of Tuscany was also just newly married to MT, heiress of the Empire (with A LOT of debts as she'd find out), had to trade away his own duchy and yet would end up a very wealthy man indeed. Yes, most of that money came from manufacturing and great investments, but he had to get a starting capital somewhere. And he did like art (and jewelry).
Otoh: Florence does still have most of those Medici treasures for tourists to admire. If FS' Lorraine minions grabbed what they could get once Gian Gastone kicked it, when were they restituted, and why? Because that usually only happens if the grabber later loses a war. (See also, Napoleon, where only a part from all the art he freely helped himself to in both Italy and Germany was restituted, while some remains in the Louvre to this day. But some was indeed brought back. Jacob Grimm of fairy tale fame as a young man had among other things the job to track down the art from Hessen Kassel and see it was transported back there, for example. He got ca. 350 of ca 900 items.) And by the time Italy got sort of, kinda, independent, it still wasn't in a position to demand art from Vienna. The first heavyweight who could have done it when Austria was down and he was up was Mussolini, and he was more into styling himself as the heir of the Romans.
But like I said: all of this is speculation, and right now, I can only offer guesswork.
Honestly, I have no idea. I don't recall it from the MT and Joseph biographies that I've read, but then it's not something important to either of their lives, so their biographers would have no need to mention it. I really should get around to that FS biography his German wiki entry mentions anyway. And/or to a Leopold biography since you want me to read one anyway, because without having any date to back this up, my instinct is to point out that Leopold, who actually lived in Tuscany most of the time for decades before becoming Emperor, would have had far more opportunity and motive to select art treasury to take with him to Vienna than FS, who didn't live in Tuscany and thus would have to rely on minions to make a good selection. (For a given value of "good".) One possible source to look at would be the catalogue of the various art and treasury collections in the various palaces (Schönbrunn, or the one in Innsbruck which was also a former Lorraine owned seat and FS' favourite) which these days usually lit the provenience (i.e. where a given painting came from, and when).
I could see arguments either way, especially considering the common attitude for non Italian aristocrats visiting Italy in the 18th century was "cheap Italian art to be had! Yay!" (see also Wilhelmine writing to Fritz that she'd send him so many more things if it weren't for the cost of transport, because you could get the most amazing things for a bread and butter, and of course Sir William Hamilton taking a lot of antiquities to Britain over the decades), and FS when becoming Duke of Tuscany was also just newly married to MT, heiress of the Empire (with A LOT of debts as she'd find out), had to trade away his own duchy and yet would end up a very wealthy man indeed. Yes, most of that money came from manufacturing and great investments, but he had to get a starting capital somewhere. And he did like art (and jewelry).
Otoh: Florence does still have most of those Medici treasures for tourists to admire. If FS' Lorraine minions grabbed what they could get once Gian Gastone kicked it, when were they restituted, and why? Because that usually only happens if the grabber later loses a war. (See also, Napoleon, where only a part from all the art he freely helped himself to in both Italy and Germany was restituted, while some remains in the Louvre to this day. But some was indeed brought back. Jacob Grimm of fairy tale fame as a young man had among other things the job to track down the art from Hessen Kassel and see it was transported back there, for example. He got ca. 350 of ca 900 items.) And by the time Italy got sort of, kinda, independent, it still wasn't in a position to demand art from Vienna. The first heavyweight who could have done it when Austria was down and he was up was Mussolini, and he was more into styling himself as the heir of the Romans.
But like I said: all of this is speculation, and right now, I can only offer guesswork.
"Gerechtigeit" I only know as "justice", but "interests" or "businesses" makes more sense in context here.
Let me remind you of my write up of the Gundling biography, and specifically this bit from how he impressed FW at first: What's more, it's also documented that he made the suggestion to discontinue allowing every little estate to brew their beer according to their own standards but to introduce a single state standard which the breweries had to adher to, which made a lot of nobility hate his gut because it essentially created both state control and a state monopoly on said quality control; FW, though, was delighted.
Also of Fredersdorf making the Kiekemal colonists buy only his beer. Gerechtigkeit in this old fashioned sense is the right/privilege of a liege lord to brew and sell their beer ("Höker" has nothing to do with hawks, it's another old fashioned word which lives on in the modern German slang word "verhökern" = sell) and make their dependents take it as opposed to buying someone else's beer.
This lawsuit, btw, does sound very much like the entire Kiekemal business to me. I note no one thought Hans Heinrich lost his honor over it.
Since it's a small Stuart world: I see the executioner who executed Grandpa Russell was the same Jack Ketch who would go on to execute Monmouth. And his Russell execution was just as gruesomely botched, which is why Monmouth asked him to do it better this time than with Russell, and Ketch replied "I shall try". :(
Incidentally, what all this underlines is why Dr. Guillontin thought he'd made an invention to benefit humanity, and why the executioner of Paris, Charles-Henri Sanson, heartily concurred and said just this, that it would mean no more tired/worn out/incompetend executioners making the condemned criminals suffer extra long.
Going off on a tangent here: I refreshed my executioner trivia, and it strikes me that this Jack Ketch fellow became proverbial (and a synonym for devil or executioner - if anyone has read Neil Gaiman's "Graveyard Book", the name is used in this capacity there, not meaning the historical person) because he was so bad at his trade, contributing to the executioner = sadist image. Whereas the most famous German executioner I can think of was the diary keeping Franz Schmidt and the most famous French executioner the above mentioned Charles-Henri Sanson, who came from a line of six executioners. Both of whom were also working as doctors (to those who couldn't afford a "real" one, but with arguably much better knowledge of the human body than many a university educated one), neither of whom wanted to the job to begin with, but both were stuck with it because their father had had it, and both in German territories and in France, this meant that executioner's children could not have an "honest" trade, they were pariahs. Franz Schmidt petitioned the Emperor all his life to allow his children to be freed from this and finally succeeded. (His father had not started out a s an executionoer but had been made one by the local Margrave who wanted a man killed, but could not get the actual local executioner to do it, who was sick. So he commissioned a man who until then had been a harmless tradesman and who was thereafter condemned to do nothing else, because like I said, once you were an executioner...) Now, both Schmidt and Sanson at least according to their notes and the account of them did have an understanding of their job that would have precluded this kind of incompetent butchery. They also both had to be apprenticed and learn (the Guillontine not having been invented yet in Sanson's case). So I wonder whether British executioners didn't have to through an apprenticeship but that anyone who wanted to have such job was taken (since not many did), which meant that you got the worst-inclined people for it?
Incidentally, what all this underlines is why Dr. Guillontin thought he'd made an invention to benefit humanity, and why the executioner of Paris, Charles-Henri Sanson, heartily concurred and said just this, that it would mean no more tired/worn out/incompetend executioners making the condemned criminals suffer extra long.
Going off on a tangent here: I refreshed my executioner trivia, and it strikes me that this Jack Ketch fellow became proverbial (and a synonym for devil or executioner - if anyone has read Neil Gaiman's "Graveyard Book", the name is used in this capacity there, not meaning the historical person) because he was so bad at his trade, contributing to the executioner = sadist image. Whereas the most famous German executioner I can think of was the diary keeping Franz Schmidt and the most famous French executioner the above mentioned Charles-Henri Sanson, who came from a line of six executioners. Both of whom were also working as doctors (to those who couldn't afford a "real" one, but with arguably much better knowledge of the human body than many a university educated one), neither of whom wanted to the job to begin with, but both were stuck with it because their father had had it, and both in German territories and in France, this meant that executioner's children could not have an "honest" trade, they were pariahs. Franz Schmidt petitioned the Emperor all his life to allow his children to be freed from this and finally succeeded. (His father had not started out a s an executionoer but had been made one by the local Margrave who wanted a man killed, but could not get the actual local executioner to do it, who was sick. So he commissioned a man who until then had been a harmless tradesman and who was thereafter condemned to do nothing else, because like I said, once you were an executioner...) Now, both Schmidt and Sanson at least according to their notes and the account of them did have an understanding of their job that would have precluded this kind of incompetent butchery. They also both had to be apprenticed and learn (the Guillontine not having been invented yet in Sanson's case). So I wonder whether British executioners didn't have to through an apprenticeship but that anyone who wanted to have such job was taken (since not many did), which meant that you got the worst-inclined people for it?
Maybe he did! Incidentally, I noticed that the Monmouth Rebellion happened with huge Scottish participation - the Scottish branch was known as Argyll's Rising, see here, with Mildred's favourite thing, lots of maps. (I only just found this website which is all about this particular rebellion, it seems.) It's not the first time that I wondered whether the Scottish/Jacobite connection was a case depending on James NOT being King and far, far away, and later, after his death, his son never having been in Scotland at all, for as long as James was King, Scotland doesn't exactly come acrosss as a stronghold to him.
Re: pettiness, though, how's this for James being petty even before his daughter and son-in-law toppled him, but after they were bff with Monmouth:
(Mary) was dismayed when James refused to help when the Catholic king of France, Louis XIV, invaded Orange and persecuted Huguenot refugees there. In an attempt to damage William, James encouraged his daughter's staff to inform her that William was having an affair with Elizabeth Villiers, the daughter of her childhood governess Frances Villiers. Acting on the information, Mary waited outside Villiers's room and caught her husband leaving it late at night. William denied adultery, and Mary apparently believed and forgave him. Possibly, Villiers and William were not meeting as lovers but to exchange diplomatic intelligence. Mary's staff was dismissed and sent back to Britain. (From Mary's wiki entry.)
Sarah Churchill, wife of not yet Marlborough, after Mary has returned to London and shows signs of being glad to be back in England: Wow, you're such a bad daughter. How can you be happy when you and your husband just kicked your old man out!
Btw, since you and Mildred are the military experts: takes on why Monmouth (and Argyll) and BPC both failed, and William scored with the invading and driving the current King into exile? Was it just that James had managed to piss off way more people in the intervening years (between Monmoouth the Glorious Revolution) than G2, or was William just better armed and organized? Both?
Re: pettiness, though, how's this for James being petty even before his daughter and son-in-law toppled him, but after they were bff with Monmouth:
(Mary) was dismayed when James refused to help when the Catholic king of France, Louis XIV, invaded Orange and persecuted Huguenot refugees there. In an attempt to damage William, James encouraged his daughter's staff to inform her that William was having an affair with Elizabeth Villiers, the daughter of her childhood governess Frances Villiers. Acting on the information, Mary waited outside Villiers's room and caught her husband leaving it late at night. William denied adultery, and Mary apparently believed and forgave him. Possibly, Villiers and William were not meeting as lovers but to exchange diplomatic intelligence. Mary's staff was dismissed and sent back to Britain. (From Mary's wiki entry.)
Sarah Churchill, wife of not yet Marlborough, after Mary has returned to London and shows signs of being glad to be back in England: Wow, you're such a bad daughter. How can you be happy when you and your husband just kicked your old man out!
Btw, since you and Mildred are the military experts: takes on why Monmouth (and Argyll) and BPC both failed, and William scored with the invading and driving the current King into exile? Was it just that James had managed to piss off way more people in the intervening years (between Monmoouth the Glorious Revolution) than G2, or was William just better armed and organized? Both?
Hello, I'm still alive even though Uni is still actively trying to kill me!
At least I don't have any more papers to write rn.
Anyway, I've been to Wust twice this year, once two days ago (what does it say about me that I drove 500km for a dead guy's 291st Jahrgedächtnis...?), and have apparently been promoted to the local historical association's transcription specialist because they don't have anyone who can read Kurrent and I can. So now I have some 18th century documents on my desk at home. Which I still can't believe. Some bills, some official documents with Prussian seals, a letter to Hans Heinrich from 1705, a letter to his wife from 1743, and an envelope of a letter to one of the younger sons with a seal from another Katte. I have yet to transcribe them, but I'll notify you if I find anything fun :D Also there's more where this came from which i could possibly get. Needless to say I'm hyped and will actually pass away immediately if the next stack of unorganized documents contains a letter that mentions new stuff on Katte jr.
Speaking of Katte, I got an article about the punishment methods at his boarding school by a Thomas Grunewald, don't know if you've already covered that...? I haven't read the whole thing yet, but what I've seen is very interesting. Teen Katte, along with some other students, got reprimanded for throwing snow and "wird besonders ermahnt, weil er sich vieles sagen lassen kann, aber nachher so tut als sei nichts gewesen". He also got investigated for trading things with his classmates and being "nicht genügsam erwecket"
Finally, I made some art during the last few months. I don't remember if I shared my latest comic with you...? It's not even that new, but I sorta forgot... Anyway:
Silly comic featuring Fritz and Algarotti
And two Kattes. It's rather obvious which one was made in a medium i know how to use and which one was an experiment with new things... They both have their charm, even though both faces didn't turn out the way I usually want my Kattes to look. The coloured pencil one was gifted to the people in Wust and will apparently end up on some wall there :'D
Oil Pastels:
and coloured pencils:
Alright, this was my quick dump of stuff that could be interesting :'D I might make more coloured pencil portraits in the near future, I'd like to have a proper, nice looking picture of Fredersdorf... Maybe I'll make it a small series of Fritz and his boyfriends, I kinda like the portrait on white background look ^^ Anyway, I hope y'all are doing well :D
At least I don't have any more papers to write rn.
Anyway, I've been to Wust twice this year, once two days ago (what does it say about me that I drove 500km for a dead guy's 291st Jahrgedächtnis...?), and have apparently been promoted to the local historical association's transcription specialist because they don't have anyone who can read Kurrent and I can. So now I have some 18th century documents on my desk at home. Which I still can't believe. Some bills, some official documents with Prussian seals, a letter to Hans Heinrich from 1705, a letter to his wife from 1743, and an envelope of a letter to one of the younger sons with a seal from another Katte. I have yet to transcribe them, but I'll notify you if I find anything fun :D Also there's more where this came from which i could possibly get. Needless to say I'm hyped and will actually pass away immediately if the next stack of unorganized documents contains a letter that mentions new stuff on Katte jr.
Speaking of Katte, I got an article about the punishment methods at his boarding school by a Thomas Grunewald, don't know if you've already covered that...? I haven't read the whole thing yet, but what I've seen is very interesting. Teen Katte, along with some other students, got reprimanded for throwing snow and "wird besonders ermahnt, weil er sich vieles sagen lassen kann, aber nachher so tut als sei nichts gewesen". He also got investigated for trading things with his classmates and being "nicht genügsam erwecket"
Finally, I made some art during the last few months. I don't remember if I shared my latest comic with you...? It's not even that new, but I sorta forgot... Anyway:
Silly comic featuring Fritz and Algarotti
And two Kattes. It's rather obvious which one was made in a medium i know how to use and which one was an experiment with new things... They both have their charm, even though both faces didn't turn out the way I usually want my Kattes to look. The coloured pencil one was gifted to the people in Wust and will apparently end up on some wall there :'D
Oil Pastels:
and coloured pencils:
Alright, this was my quick dump of stuff that could be interesting :'D I might make more coloured pencil portraits in the near future, I'd like to have a proper, nice looking picture of Fredersdorf... Maybe I'll make it a small series of Fritz and his boyfriends, I kinda like the portrait on white background look ^^ Anyway, I hope y'all are doing well :D
OMG, no, I cannot believe this, you cannot be real, you are my new hero!!
We were just admiring your guide to Fritzian siblings that Selena pointed us to and wondering where you were and hoping you would come back. But I wasn't expecting THIS! :DDD
Anyway, I've been to Wust twice this year, once two days ago (what does it say about me that I drove 500km for a dead guy's 291st Jahrgedächtnis...?)
That you are LUCKY and also dedicated and also MY HERO! (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
selenak, your 45 pictures of Wust taken specifically for me are the best thing that ever happened to me in salon and the only thing that's reconciled me to not having been there myself. <333)
We extremely need your help with the paleographical side of things, and now you're telling us the Wust association does too??! OMG! I have two sets of historical documents (one Fredersdorf, one Peter Keith) that if we can figure out how to get them from the archives, I will legit pay you for a transcription.
ALSO! See if the Wust people can help you get a copy of Martin von Katte's unpublished manuscripts on the Katte family and on Hans Hermann! They form the basis for Kloosterhuis' Katte monograph, but I haven't been able to get them! Tell them I'm writing an article. (I am, probably. :P)
Also also, one of the reasons I've been eagerly waiting for you to come back is that we need some transcription help with this very short record! Top of the right hand page, the one that starts v. Keith. That's Peter's widow's death record, turned up courtesy ofcahn!
Felis and Selena were able to read all but a few words. This discussion has what Felis was able to interpret. Can you help?
Speaking of Katte, I got an article about the punishment methods at his boarding school by a Thomas Grunewald, don't know if you've already covered that...? I haven't read the whole thing yet, but what I've seen is very interesting.
We don't know this, please share! Is it online? If not, can you scan a copy?
"wird besonders ermahnt, weil er sich vieles sagen lassen kann, aber nachher so tut als sei nichts gewesen".
LOLOL, oh Katte. Was this Francke's Pietest pedagogium at Halle?
Finally, I made some art during the last few months. I don't remember if I shared my latest comic with you...? It's not even that new, but I sorta forgot... Anyway:
I had not seen this! LOLOL Algarotti, Fritz needs a sex therapist, clearly!
Speaking of constructive criticism, since we know that 1) Andrew Mitchell was one the "tastiest dish" for Algarotti, 2) Fritz showed some of his poetry to Mitchell, Selena has embraced as headcanon my joke that Fritz and Mitchell obviously talked about how their ex Algarotti was hot stuff, and also Mitchell critiqued the orgasm poem for realism wrt Algarotti's orgasms. :'D
Your art is so great. <3 If you'd come back in time for Rare Male Slash Exchange, I would have begged for your help with the flyer in my modern-day Fritzian corporate AU. Instead, I ended up with this ridiculous thing and had the characters mock my graphic design skills or lack thereof in-universe, lol. :'D
Speaking of fic, I read your road-trip fic and loved it! I didn't leave a comment solely because in order to quote my favorite parts, I would have had to reread the fic, and you have to understand that my German, while massively improved over 2 years ago, is extreeeemely slow and painful. I'm working on it and plan to leave a juicy comment with quotes once I can do so without it taking two weeks! (Also, it was super useful for teaching me some modern vocabulary, since all the vocab I have is for things like "fortress" and "bloodletting", not "seatbelt", lol forever, but also takes me even longer than usual to read for that reason.)
Btw, I'm currently reading Kloosterhuis, and once I'm finished, I'm going to try Zeithain again. (Zeithain will be much better German practice, but I wanted to do it in this order, because I wanted to see what Roes fictionalized vs. drew from history.)
The coloured pencil one was gifted to the people in Wust and will apparently end up on some wall there :'D
OMG! Btw, if you're tight with the local historical association and talk Katte portraits with them, do you want to tell them that the Katte portrait they do have on the wall is almost certainly Catt, per our discussion here?
In other news, I'm currently trying to turn some of our historical research into publishable articles! This is why I need help getting materials from the archives and then someone to transcribe them. :D
Article 1: Biographical sketch of Peter Keith. According to the Prussian archives, there's an unpublished correspondence that appears to be between him and Fritz, 1745-1750. (I know you don't know French, but I have someone who can almost certainly help with that part!) Kloosterhuis also gives two different months for his marriage to Ariane, and he gives the citation the marriage record, and I'd love to get a copy of that as well.
Article 2: Thanks to my persistent detective work,cahn's emotional and financial investment (lol), and selenak's reading and summarizing of books written in German, we have figured out almost all of what's up with Fredersdorf's embezzlement accusation (in Wikipedia as well as Fahlenkamp), and solved another mystery while we were at it! But in order to make this production-grade material, I have one item from the box bills project, from Fredersdorf's successor to him asking about Glasow's embezzlement, that I need to get my hands on the original of, because I'm relying on the box bill project's summary on their webpage. This one will be in German, at least.
Your art is going straight into Rheinsberg!
Meanwhile, if any of our German speakers want to see if it's possible to order online from the Prussian archives, I would appreciate the help. Whengambitten checked, there was a form, but also it said the cashier's office was closed due to the pandemic. Every time I check, it still says closed. But maybe there's some way for us to order anyway?
If not, we'll have to wait, and I will let you know, transcription specialistprinzsorgenfrei, when I have more materials for you to transcribe! (Don't forget to ask the Wust people about Martin von Katte's stuff! I've been dying to get my hands on those manuscripts since Selena first told me about them!)
Also, your kattestrophe blog says there's a Fritz & Co. Discord. What kinds of conversations happen there? Is there anyone there who might be interested in joining salon?
We missed you, but you have come back with a bang! Please keep us apprised of your transcription findings!
ETA: Speaking of Rare Male Slash Exchange, I meant to note that Selena wrote me a lovely Peter Keith fic in which Algarotti finds that some Germans, even traumatized ones without a lot of recent experience, are great in bed. :D (Peter, setting a standard that Fritz couldn't live up to? Lol!) But I see from the kudos that you've already found it. :)
In other news, we also turned up Wilhelmine's travel diary from her Italy visit. I'm halfway cleaning up the OCR so we can run it through Google Translate and see if there's anything interesting. So far no, but you never know! There will also be some Fritz & Wilhelmine letters, but I'm not sure if they're ones that have already been found elsewhere by salon or not.
We were just admiring your guide to Fritzian siblings that Selena pointed us to and wondering where you were and hoping you would come back. But I wasn't expecting THIS! :DDD
Anyway, I've been to Wust twice this year, once two days ago (what does it say about me that I drove 500km for a dead guy's 291st Jahrgedächtnis...?)
That you are LUCKY and also dedicated and also MY HERO! (
selenak, your 45 pictures of Wust taken specifically for me are the best thing that ever happened to me in salon and the only thing that's reconciled me to not having been there myself. <333)We extremely need your help with the paleographical side of things, and now you're telling us the Wust association does too??! OMG! I have two sets of historical documents (one Fredersdorf, one Peter Keith) that if we can figure out how to get them from the archives, I will legit pay you for a transcription.
ALSO! See if the Wust people can help you get a copy of Martin von Katte's unpublished manuscripts on the Katte family and on Hans Hermann! They form the basis for Kloosterhuis' Katte monograph, but I haven't been able to get them! Tell them I'm writing an article. (I am, probably. :P)
Also also, one of the reasons I've been eagerly waiting for you to come back is that we need some transcription help with this very short record! Top of the right hand page, the one that starts v. Keith. That's Peter's widow's death record, turned up courtesy of
cahn! Felis and Selena were able to read all but a few words. This discussion has what Felis was able to interpret. Can you help?
Speaking of Katte, I got an article about the punishment methods at his boarding school by a Thomas Grunewald, don't know if you've already covered that...? I haven't read the whole thing yet, but what I've seen is very interesting.
We don't know this, please share! Is it online? If not, can you scan a copy?
"wird besonders ermahnt, weil er sich vieles sagen lassen kann, aber nachher so tut als sei nichts gewesen".
LOLOL, oh Katte. Was this Francke's Pietest pedagogium at Halle?
Finally, I made some art during the last few months. I don't remember if I shared my latest comic with you...? It's not even that new, but I sorta forgot... Anyway:
I had not seen this! LOLOL Algarotti, Fritz needs a sex therapist, clearly!
Speaking of constructive criticism, since we know that 1) Andrew Mitchell was one the "tastiest dish" for Algarotti, 2) Fritz showed some of his poetry to Mitchell, Selena has embraced as headcanon my joke that Fritz and Mitchell obviously talked about how their ex Algarotti was hot stuff, and also Mitchell critiqued the orgasm poem for realism wrt Algarotti's orgasms. :'D
Your art is so great. <3 If you'd come back in time for Rare Male Slash Exchange, I would have begged for your help with the flyer in my modern-day Fritzian corporate AU. Instead, I ended up with this ridiculous thing and had the characters mock my graphic design skills or lack thereof in-universe, lol. :'D
Speaking of fic, I read your road-trip fic and loved it! I didn't leave a comment solely because in order to quote my favorite parts, I would have had to reread the fic, and you have to understand that my German, while massively improved over 2 years ago, is extreeeemely slow and painful. I'm working on it and plan to leave a juicy comment with quotes once I can do so without it taking two weeks! (Also, it was super useful for teaching me some modern vocabulary, since all the vocab I have is for things like "fortress" and "bloodletting", not "seatbelt", lol forever, but also takes me even longer than usual to read for that reason.)
Btw, I'm currently reading Kloosterhuis, and once I'm finished, I'm going to try Zeithain again. (Zeithain will be much better German practice, but I wanted to do it in this order, because I wanted to see what Roes fictionalized vs. drew from history.)
The coloured pencil one was gifted to the people in Wust and will apparently end up on some wall there :'D
OMG! Btw, if you're tight with the local historical association and talk Katte portraits with them, do you want to tell them that the Katte portrait they do have on the wall is almost certainly Catt, per our discussion here?
In other news, I'm currently trying to turn some of our historical research into publishable articles! This is why I need help getting materials from the archives and then someone to transcribe them. :D
Article 1: Biographical sketch of Peter Keith. According to the Prussian archives, there's an unpublished correspondence that appears to be between him and Fritz, 1745-1750. (I know you don't know French, but I have someone who can almost certainly help with that part!) Kloosterhuis also gives two different months for his marriage to Ariane, and he gives the citation the marriage record, and I'd love to get a copy of that as well.
Article 2: Thanks to my persistent detective work,
cahn's emotional and financial investment (lol), and selenak's reading and summarizing of books written in German, we have figured out almost all of what's up with Fredersdorf's embezzlement accusation (in Wikipedia as well as Fahlenkamp), and solved another mystery while we were at it! But in order to make this production-grade material, I have one item from the box bills project, from Fredersdorf's successor to him asking about Glasow's embezzlement, that I need to get my hands on the original of, because I'm relying on the box bill project's summary on their webpage. This one will be in German, at least.Your art is going straight into Rheinsberg!
Meanwhile, if any of our German speakers want to see if it's possible to order online from the Prussian archives, I would appreciate the help. When
gambitten checked, there was a form, but also it said the cashier's office was closed due to the pandemic. Every time I check, it still says closed. But maybe there's some way for us to order anyway?If not, we'll have to wait, and I will let you know, transcription specialist
prinzsorgenfrei, when I have more materials for you to transcribe! (Don't forget to ask the Wust people about Martin von Katte's stuff! I've been dying to get my hands on those manuscripts since Selena first told me about them!)Also, your kattestrophe blog says there's a Fritz & Co. Discord. What kinds of conversations happen there? Is there anyone there who might be interested in joining salon?
We missed you, but you have come back with a bang! Please keep us apprised of your transcription findings!
ETA: Speaking of Rare Male Slash Exchange, I meant to note that Selena wrote me a lovely Peter Keith fic in which Algarotti finds that some Germans, even traumatized ones without a lot of recent experience, are great in bed. :D (Peter, setting a standard that Fritz couldn't live up to? Lol!) But I see from the kudos that you've already found it. :)
In other news, we also turned up Wilhelmine's travel diary from her Italy visit. I'm halfway cleaning up the OCR so we can run it through Google Translate and see if there's anything interesting. So far no, but you never know! There will also be some Fritz & Wilhelmine letters, but I'm not sure if they're ones that have already been found elsewhere by salon or not.
Edited 2021-11-08 14:41 (UTC)
Btw, since you and Mildred are the military experts
Haha, well, two problems. 1) Monmouth and William were 17th century, which bored me to tears despite my best efforts as a teenager, so I never even remotely looked into the military history there. 2) Jacobite military history falls under "I can't let myself give into the temptation to rehash this or I'll never stop, and I have too many new things I need to learnlike German."
My off-the-cuff response is that William had the kind of support he needed to go straight for London, whereas BPC didn't, and James had managed to piss off way more people, which improved William's chances and harmed BPC's. But BPC also made some *cough* questionable military decisions (that drove Lord George Murray crazy), and there I must stop.
Haha, well, two problems. 1) Monmouth and William were 17th century, which bored me to tears despite my best efforts as a teenager, so I never even remotely looked into the military history there. 2) Jacobite military history falls under "I can't let myself give into the temptation to rehash this or I'll never stop, and I have too many new things I need to learn
My off-the-cuff response is that William had the kind of support he needed to go straight for London, whereas BPC didn't, and James had managed to piss off way more people, which improved William's chances and harmed BPC's. But BPC also made some *cough* questionable military decisions (that drove Lord George Murray crazy), and there I must stop.
Thank you! I was really struggling with that word and guessing as best I could. (Which was not very well, lol.)
And yes, it did remind me of Kiekemal! But I had forgotten about that Gundling detail, and didn't think to apply the concept of the lord of the manor's legal privileges, thank you.
I note no one thought Hans Heinrich lost his honor over it.
Lol, yes, and I notice Fritz is still rewarding Kattes with heiresses after 1748, notwithstanding. Maybe HH being dead helped. But Pfeiffer managed to recover and make a name for himself, to the point where after his death, people thought he was innocent!
And yes, it did remind me of Kiekemal! But I had forgotten about that Gundling detail, and didn't think to apply the concept of the lord of the manor's legal privileges, thank you.
I note no one thought Hans Heinrich lost his honor over it.
Lol, yes, and I notice Fritz is still rewarding Kattes with heiresses after 1748, notwithstanding. Maybe HH being dead helped. But Pfeiffer managed to recover and make a name for himself, to the point where after his death, people thought he was innocent!
the opening word for Ferdinand had me in stitches, not gonna lie
This guide clearly shows the influence of salon. I'm so proud. :'D
Whereas the first sentence of Ulrike's made me think: "I have never considered this aspect before, but it's absolutely true!"
Tell us your secret, Ulrike!
This guide clearly shows the influence of salon. I'm so proud. :'D
Whereas the first sentence of Ulrike's made me think: "I have never considered this aspect before, but it's absolutely true!"
Tell us your secret, Ulrike!
Lol, yes, and I notice Fritz is still rewarding Kattes with heiresses after 1748, notwithstanding.
Though that would be yet another good reason why the Kattes keep the true reason for the duel super secret and go for "love" rather than "financial greed", I bet!
Lehndorff: ....
Though that would be yet another good reason why the Kattes keep the true reason for the duel super secret and go for "love" rather than "financial greed", I bet!
Lehndorff: ....
Though that would be yet another good reason why the Kattes keep the true reason for the duel super secret and go for "love" rather than "financial greed", I bet!
Exactly what I was thinking this morning! (It's been a long morning: I woke up at 4:30, saw your comments, did some database maintenance, the database broke, I had to fix it, I took an inadequate nap, and I'm now half asleep and multitasking salon and keeping an eye on the database, so I'm forgetting about 50% of the things I meant to say, ugh.)
Exactly what I was thinking this morning! (It's been a long morning: I woke up at 4:30, saw your comments, did some database maintenance, the database broke, I had to fix it, I took an inadequate nap, and I'm now half asleep and multitasking salon and keeping an eye on the database, so I'm forgetting about 50% of the things I meant to say, ugh.)
Oh! Dammit! One more thing I forgot to mention.
Since you're now salon's official transcriber, if there are any books or other materials that would either aid you in your noble Katte endeavors, or generally be of interest to salon, that I could help pay for, let me know! I got a raise last month and as official salon librarian, am offering to help buy books for the cause. :D
Since you're now salon's official transcriber, if there are any books or other materials that would either aid you in your noble Katte endeavors, or generally be of interest to salon, that I could help pay for, let me know! I got a raise last month and as official salon librarian, am offering to help buy books for the cause. :D
An overview of upcoming historical tv shows, posted yesterday. Of interest to Salon: a new Russian tv series Elizaveta by the same folk that made the most recent Ekaterina/Catherine series about Elizabeth between Peter the Great's death and her coup making herself Tsarina. Since this includes the time when Anna Ivanova organized the ice palace wedding, I bet they'll include that. However, considering that, Mildred, you told us this Ekaterina show not only gave Fritz fearsome gigantic beasts as dogs instead of Italian greyhounds but also let him attempt to poison the Russian royal family as if he was Vladimir Putin, including his biggest fan Peter, despite the fact this makes no sense whatsoever, I have to wonder which non Russian bad guy will be around for this one. Probably Anna's lover? And now for the really important question: will Suhm have a cameo appearance? Will Algarotti? (Who was there for Anna Leopoldovna's wedding, remember.) Hey, maybe Algarotti will be Fritz' super secret poisoning honeypot spy?
On a less silly note, another upcoming show is about Elizabeth (Tudor) between the death of Henry VIII and her own accension, and as we get glimpses of Thomas Seymour, young Robin Dudley, young Jane Grey etc, I'm cautiously optimistic that we'll get some complicated stuff instead of just doing the Mary vs Elizabeth thing of Mary's reign. And on a personal not salon note, I'm gratefied yet another show is about Varian Fry who saved among many many other people Lion Feuchtwanger and his wife Marta's lives from Hitler.
On a less silly note, another upcoming show is about Elizabeth (Tudor) between the death of Henry VIII and her own accension, and as we get glimpses of Thomas Seymour, young Robin Dudley, young Jane Grey etc, I'm cautiously optimistic that we'll get some complicated stuff instead of just doing the Mary vs Elizabeth thing of Mary's reign. And on a personal not salon note, I'm gratefied yet another show is about Varian Fry who saved among many many other people Lion Feuchtwanger and his wife Marta's lives from Hitler.
Edited 2021-11-08 15:04 (UTC)
Of interest to Salon: a new Russian tv series Elizaveta by the same folk that made the most recent Ekaterina/Catherine series about Elizabeth between Peter the Great's death and her coup making herself Tsarina.
Oh, neat. I don't watch many things, but I did make it through the subtitles of the first season, so I might someday check this out. Thanks.
Probably Anna's lover?
He is a convenient scapegoat!
And now for the really important question: will Suhm have a cameo appearance?
Almost certainly not, but I will pick my favorite nameless extra in the background and announce that it's him. :P
Will Algarotti?
Maybe! I'm also hoping Lynar shows up, although it's too bad the threesome won't, since it's being produced in Russia.
Oh, neat. I don't watch many things, but I did make it through the subtitles of the first season, so I might someday check this out. Thanks.
Probably Anna's lover?
He is a convenient scapegoat!
And now for the really important question: will Suhm have a cameo appearance?
Almost certainly not, but I will pick my favorite nameless extra in the background and announce that it's him. :P
Will Algarotti?
Maybe! I'm also hoping Lynar shows up, although it's too bad the threesome won't, since it's being produced in Russia.
Hiiii! :DD
I have two sets of historical documents (one Fredersdorf, one Peter Keith) that if we can figure out how to get them from the archives, I will legit pay you for a transcription.
I'd love to try! I am by no means infallible (and some handwritings are more hellish than others...), but I'd do my best (and i have more friends who know Kurrent and who could potentially help). Anything to get more stuff on Keith and Fredersdorf. Lots of people have been wanting transcriptions lately, maybe I should just do that full time :'D I've been coddled by the late 19th century and people with good handwriting lately, so I'm still a little sluggish when it comes to the worse parts, but I'll get back into the rhythm of it ^^
See if the Wust people can help you get a copy of Martin von Katte's unpublished manuscripts on the Katte family and on Hans Hermann!
I've been wanting those too and have already asked them about that when I visited in August! They gave me the e-mail adress of Dr. Maria von Katte and I've been trying to construct a proper e-mail since :D I'm an anxious mess though, so i haven't sent anything off yet. Still trying my best not to sound too weird. "Hello, I am emotionally attached to your dead distant cousin and I'd like nothing more than to read his private mail. The brochure from Wust says he wrote a letter to his, quote, "Engelsschwesterken" when he was a child and I just about died and need more context for this." I hoped that she would show up to the thing on Saturday (apparently she does vistit Wust at times) so I could ask in person and use my big shiny student eyes to convince her to help me, but she didn't (show up, that is).
I have not dared to mention that the pic in the church is of de Catt, I'm not sure if we are on that level of friendship yet :'DD It's such an awkward thing to bring up. My friend and i were considering telling them when we visited last year, but alas...
Also also, one of the reasons I've been eagerly waiting for you to come back is that we need some transcription help with this very short record!
Oh boy, gotta love registries. Not the worst handwriting I've seen, I'll see what I can do :D The currency could/should be Reichst(h)aler I think...? The word in front of Queen is reigning, the first line of the heirs column says "ein Majorenner Sohn, (der)", so "one adult son". I'm reading Steckfluß too; that would be a pulmonary edema, so it would make sense. I'm at work right now, so I'm not in the best headspace to concentrate on this, but I'll get back to it later :D
The article about the Franckesche Stiftungen is here. Apparently it's partially a reaction to Roes' depiction of the school in Zeithain :'D Dr. Grunewald did not like that one, according to the Wust people. The list of crimes and punishments is in the appendix; there's also a list of names that's proof that Katte's friend Holtzendorff really was in Glaucha around the same time (I was wondering, since he's 3 to 4 years older than Katte...), the 19th century book that Kloosterhuis used as a source on him didn't mention that :DD I'd love to find out more about Holtzendorff other than "FW hated him, he was possibly a bit of a ho, and he dropped out of the Gens d'armes to basically become a banker"
I read your road-trip fic and loved it!
Aaah, thank you! :DD I'm still working on chapter 3, getting shit done is not my strong suit. There will be a proper kiss eventually, I promise! :'D If you want more old timey german and more Katte there's the one shot i wrote... :'D aka The Sad Thing I Published as opposed to The Modern AU Where Things Go Less Wrong. Speaking of that oneshot, there was a speaker in Wust who restores crypts for a living (very nice man, super interesting conversation, offered me an internship) and apparently the one in Golzow, where Katte's sister (and her husband, Rochow. The historically relevant of the two.) is buried, has been subject to, uh... incredible violence. I'm talking heads ripped off of mummies. I guess poor Fredersdorf was lucky after all, his coffin may have been destroyed, but at least from what I know *all* of his bones are buried somehwere on the churchyard of Zernikow... Also also one of Katte's nephews on that side apparently got murdered by a servant. Fun times in the Mittelmark :'D
The discord server is a fun bunch of people, they're all very sweet :D Mostly around my age, so early 20s. We talk about pretty much everything, there's proper historical work and discussions as well as a lot of memery and injokes (like Fritz and Voltaire's slightly demonic child, born of a Frev era conspiracy theory: The Hatred of Christianity, Prince/ss of Prussia). And fic writing. And more art. One of us is an animation student and made an animatic staring Voltaire (with appearances from Algarotti and Maupertuis) using his song from the weird musical :D I'll tell them you'd be happy to have new contributors over here. Gotta admit though, the salon is a little intimidating to, I quote, "humble shitposters" :'D
I saw Wilhelmine's travel diary too, thought about buying it :DD Good to see you've got it covered!
I'll keep an eye out for the prussian archives too ^^
I have two sets of historical documents (one Fredersdorf, one Peter Keith) that if we can figure out how to get them from the archives, I will legit pay you for a transcription.
I'd love to try! I am by no means infallible (and some handwritings are more hellish than others...), but I'd do my best (and i have more friends who know Kurrent and who could potentially help). Anything to get more stuff on Keith and Fredersdorf. Lots of people have been wanting transcriptions lately, maybe I should just do that full time :'D I've been coddled by the late 19th century and people with good handwriting lately, so I'm still a little sluggish when it comes to the worse parts, but I'll get back into the rhythm of it ^^
See if the Wust people can help you get a copy of Martin von Katte's unpublished manuscripts on the Katte family and on Hans Hermann!
I've been wanting those too and have already asked them about that when I visited in August! They gave me the e-mail adress of Dr. Maria von Katte and I've been trying to construct a proper e-mail since :D I'm an anxious mess though, so i haven't sent anything off yet. Still trying my best not to sound too weird. "Hello, I am emotionally attached to your dead distant cousin and I'd like nothing more than to read his private mail. The brochure from Wust says he wrote a letter to his, quote, "Engelsschwesterken" when he was a child and I just about died and need more context for this." I hoped that she would show up to the thing on Saturday (apparently she does vistit Wust at times) so I could ask in person and use my big shiny student eyes to convince her to help me, but she didn't (show up, that is).
I have not dared to mention that the pic in the church is of de Catt, I'm not sure if we are on that level of friendship yet :'DD It's such an awkward thing to bring up. My friend and i were considering telling them when we visited last year, but alas...
Also also, one of the reasons I've been eagerly waiting for you to come back is that we need some transcription help with this very short record!
Oh boy, gotta love registries. Not the worst handwriting I've seen, I'll see what I can do :D The currency could/should be Reichst(h)aler I think...? The word in front of Queen is reigning, the first line of the heirs column says "ein Majorenner Sohn, (der)", so "one adult son". I'm reading Steckfluß too; that would be a pulmonary edema, so it would make sense. I'm at work right now, so I'm not in the best headspace to concentrate on this, but I'll get back to it later :D
The article about the Franckesche Stiftungen is here. Apparently it's partially a reaction to Roes' depiction of the school in Zeithain :'D Dr. Grunewald did not like that one, according to the Wust people. The list of crimes and punishments is in the appendix; there's also a list of names that's proof that Katte's friend Holtzendorff really was in Glaucha around the same time (I was wondering, since he's 3 to 4 years older than Katte...), the 19th century book that Kloosterhuis used as a source on him didn't mention that :DD I'd love to find out more about Holtzendorff other than "FW hated him, he was possibly a bit of a ho, and he dropped out of the Gens d'armes to basically become a banker"
I read your road-trip fic and loved it!
Aaah, thank you! :DD I'm still working on chapter 3, getting shit done is not my strong suit. There will be a proper kiss eventually, I promise! :'D If you want more old timey german and more Katte there's the one shot i wrote... :'D aka The Sad Thing I Published as opposed to The Modern AU Where Things Go Less Wrong. Speaking of that oneshot, there was a speaker in Wust who restores crypts for a living (very nice man, super interesting conversation, offered me an internship) and apparently the one in Golzow, where Katte's sister (and her husband, Rochow. The historically relevant of the two.) is buried, has been subject to, uh... incredible violence. I'm talking heads ripped off of mummies. I guess poor Fredersdorf was lucky after all, his coffin may have been destroyed, but at least from what I know *all* of his bones are buried somehwere on the churchyard of Zernikow... Also also one of Katte's nephews on that side apparently got murdered by a servant. Fun times in the Mittelmark :'D
The discord server is a fun bunch of people, they're all very sweet :D Mostly around my age, so early 20s. We talk about pretty much everything, there's proper historical work and discussions as well as a lot of memery and injokes (like Fritz and Voltaire's slightly demonic child, born of a Frev era conspiracy theory: The Hatred of Christianity, Prince/ss of Prussia). And fic writing. And more art. One of us is an animation student and made an animatic staring Voltaire (with appearances from Algarotti and Maupertuis) using his song from the weird musical :D I'll tell them you'd be happy to have new contributors over here. Gotta admit though, the salon is a little intimidating to, I quote, "humble shitposters" :'D
I saw Wilhelmine's travel diary too, thought about buying it :DD Good to see you've got it covered!
I'll keep an eye out for the prussian archives too ^^
Oh boy, an official title :'D Pressure's on.
Thank you for the offer! I'm always trying to complete my Katte/trial collection, but most of what I find is really cheap, no need to complicate things ^^ Just got the book of different monarchs' letters related to the trial and am trying to get my hands on Kriegsgericht in Köpenick. Have been for months. The seller had some problems locating his copy :'D Speaking of books, i did an internship at an auction house for books and prints and might start a job there at some point, that would give me access to some great historical books and books about books :D I did find a complete (?) list of Katte-fiction, but i think i lost the photo i took of it... will have to check that book again
Thank you for the offer! I'm always trying to complete my Katte/trial collection, but most of what I find is really cheap, no need to complicate things ^^ Just got the book of different monarchs' letters related to the trial and am trying to get my hands on Kriegsgericht in Köpenick. Have been for months. The seller had some problems locating his copy :'D Speaking of books, i did an internship at an auction house for books and prints and might start a job there at some point, that would give me access to some great historical books and books about books :D I did find a complete (?) list of Katte-fiction, but i think i lost the photo i took of it... will have to check that book again
I'll get back into the rhythm of it ^^
You will if I have anything to say about it!!! :DDD
My face is hurting from all the smiling today.
I've been wanting those too and have already asked them about that when I visited in August! They gave me the e-mail adress of Dr. Maria von Katte
!!!!
You're way ahead of me. Asking for this has been on my to-do list for a while, but...yeah. I know how it feels to be super awkward about asking.
The brochure from Wust says he wrote a letter to his, quote, "Engelsschwesterken" when he was a child and I just about died and need more context for this."
ZOMG, yes, we extremely need this.
selenak sent me a copy of the Hans Heinrich brochure, btw, but not the fuller one, from which she translated the two letters from Hans Heinrich about his struggles to forgive FW.
I hoped that she would show up to the thing on Saturday (apparently she does vistit Wust at times) so I could ask in person and use my big shiny student eyes to convince her to help me, but she didn't (show up, that is).
Oh, man. You know the other thing we need? Apparently at least one painting by Hans Hermann survives and is in the Katte collection and was on display in an exhibition some years ago, but I've never even seen a picture of it so I don't know what it's even a painting of!
But manuscripts come first, definitely get your hands on all the manuscripts and letters you can. :D
I'm not sure if we are on that level of friendship yet :'DD
Ahahhaha, yes, wait until you're interning for the crypt restorer guy. (Doooo iiiit! Although also definitely get a job at the auction house, just in case something comes along! It's still too bad about the book you found online that Katte owned and inscribed. Even with my recent raise and offer to help buy salon books, though, 2000 euros for a book is a bit outside my price range. :'D)
I'm at work right now, so I'm not in the best headspace to concentrate on this, but I'll get back to it later :D
Awesome, thank you!
The article about the Franckesche Stiftungen is here. Apparently it's partially a reaction to Roes' depiction of the school in Zeithain :'D Dr. Grunewald did not like that one, according to the Wust people.
Lololol, that's hilarious! Well, we found indirect evidence that Hans Heinrich had no problem with Hans Hermann playing the flute, so we consider that slander. :'D
Aaah, thank you! :DD I'm still working on chapter 3, getting shit done is not my strong suit.
I can't throw stones! My fic output has been woeful lately. I really just want someone to nag and encourage me about the two nonfiction articles-in-progress. It's sooo tedious looking up tons of references in two languages I barely know, half of them in a font that makes me cry. This is not going to get done unless someone is asking me every week, "Hey, Mildred, when it's it going to be done? The world needs more Keith and Fredersdorf!"
If you want more old timey german and more Katte there's the one shot i wrote... :'D aka The Sad Thing I Published
Oh, right! Also on my to-read list when my German is just a little better. (I couldn't resist the road trip, even though I had to download it and convert it to a pdf to be able to read it--road trips are my jam!)
apparently the one in Golzow, where Katte's sister (and her husband, Rochow. The historically relevant of the two.) is buried, has been subject to, uh... incredible violence. I'm talking heads ripped off of mummies.
Wow. I didn't know where she was buried, thank you! And zomg. Is her head ripped off, do you know?
If you know/find out where Peter Keith was buried, let us know! It's kind of funny we know his even more obscure wife's burial place, but not his.
I'll tell them you'd be happy to have new contributors over here. Gotta admit though, the salon is a little intimidating to, I quote, "humble shitposters" :'D
Hee, but we welcome humble shitposting! We have come up with playlists and sorted them into Hogwarts houses and whatnot!
I'm afraid to go over to Discord both because I'm working 40 hours again these days, and also because I'm of the opinion that all Frederician discussion should take place in salon where we can track it and consolidate it in Rheinsberg. :D
I saw Wilhelmine's travel diary too, thought about buying it :DD Good to see you've got it covered!
Nag me and the digitizing and translating will go faster! I respond well to external encouragement when I have to do super tedious things!
I'll keep an eye out for the prussian archives too ^^
Sweet! You are the best and welcome back! Please don't be intimidated by us and spend as much time here being as frivolous as you want! (And also transcriber, ilu so much, tell us everything!)
Also, get us those manuscripts! I have a very specific point I need to research about whether Katte went to Madrid like Kloosterhuis said Martin von Katte said Hans Heinrich said he did, or not!
(Now that I'm reading Kloosterhuis, researching his sources on Rottembourg is on my to-do list, because I need to compare their reliability to the reliability of the sources that are telling me Rottembourg wasn't in Madrid that year. Also the Schulenburgs, I need to research the contradictions between Kloosterhuis' genealogy and Wikipedia's. So much salon, so little time! My number one priority is I need to finish studying German so I can start studying French!)
Oh, if the Wust people have any definitive proof for the claim that Ludolf von Katte married Mme. du Rosey in 1755, that would be awesome. Lehndorff says his hopes of marrying her are fading in 1753, so if it took her another 2 years to marry Ludolf, that would be super interesting.
You will if I have anything to say about it!!! :DDD
My face is hurting from all the smiling today.
I've been wanting those too and have already asked them about that when I visited in August! They gave me the e-mail adress of Dr. Maria von Katte
!!!!
You're way ahead of me. Asking for this has been on my to-do list for a while, but...yeah. I know how it feels to be super awkward about asking.
The brochure from Wust says he wrote a letter to his, quote, "Engelsschwesterken" when he was a child and I just about died and need more context for this."
ZOMG, yes, we extremely need this.
selenak sent me a copy of the Hans Heinrich brochure, btw, but not the fuller one, from which she translated the two letters from Hans Heinrich about his struggles to forgive FW.I hoped that she would show up to the thing on Saturday (apparently she does vistit Wust at times) so I could ask in person and use my big shiny student eyes to convince her to help me, but she didn't (show up, that is).
Oh, man. You know the other thing we need? Apparently at least one painting by Hans Hermann survives and is in the Katte collection and was on display in an exhibition some years ago, but I've never even seen a picture of it so I don't know what it's even a painting of!
But manuscripts come first, definitely get your hands on all the manuscripts and letters you can. :D
I'm not sure if we are on that level of friendship yet :'DD
Ahahhaha, yes, wait until you're interning for the crypt restorer guy. (Doooo iiiit! Although also definitely get a job at the auction house, just in case something comes along! It's still too bad about the book you found online that Katte owned and inscribed. Even with my recent raise and offer to help buy salon books, though, 2000 euros for a book is a bit outside my price range. :'D)
I'm at work right now, so I'm not in the best headspace to concentrate on this, but I'll get back to it later :D
Awesome, thank you!
The article about the Franckesche Stiftungen is here. Apparently it's partially a reaction to Roes' depiction of the school in Zeithain :'D Dr. Grunewald did not like that one, according to the Wust people.
Lololol, that's hilarious! Well, we found indirect evidence that Hans Heinrich had no problem with Hans Hermann playing the flute, so we consider that slander. :'D
Aaah, thank you! :DD I'm still working on chapter 3, getting shit done is not my strong suit.
I can't throw stones! My fic output has been woeful lately. I really just want someone to nag and encourage me about the two nonfiction articles-in-progress. It's sooo tedious looking up tons of references in two languages I barely know, half of them in a font that makes me cry. This is not going to get done unless someone is asking me every week, "Hey, Mildred, when it's it going to be done? The world needs more Keith and Fredersdorf!"
If you want more old timey german and more Katte there's the one shot i wrote... :'D aka The Sad Thing I Published
Oh, right! Also on my to-read list when my German is just a little better. (I couldn't resist the road trip, even though I had to download it and convert it to a pdf to be able to read it--road trips are my jam!)
apparently the one in Golzow, where Katte's sister (and her husband, Rochow. The historically relevant of the two.) is buried, has been subject to, uh... incredible violence. I'm talking heads ripped off of mummies.
Wow. I didn't know where she was buried, thank you! And zomg. Is her head ripped off, do you know?
If you know/find out where Peter Keith was buried, let us know! It's kind of funny we know his even more obscure wife's burial place, but not his.
I'll tell them you'd be happy to have new contributors over here. Gotta admit though, the salon is a little intimidating to, I quote, "humble shitposters" :'D
Hee, but we welcome humble shitposting! We have come up with playlists and sorted them into Hogwarts houses and whatnot!
I'm afraid to go over to Discord both because I'm working 40 hours again these days, and also because I'm of the opinion that all Frederician discussion should take place in salon where we can track it and consolidate it in Rheinsberg. :D
I saw Wilhelmine's travel diary too, thought about buying it :DD Good to see you've got it covered!
Nag me and the digitizing and translating will go faster! I respond well to external encouragement when I have to do super tedious things!
I'll keep an eye out for the prussian archives too ^^
Sweet! You are the best and welcome back! Please don't be intimidated by us and spend as much time here being as frivolous as you want! (And also transcriber, ilu so much, tell us everything!)
Also, get us those manuscripts! I have a very specific point I need to research about whether Katte went to Madrid like Kloosterhuis said Martin von Katte said Hans Heinrich said he did, or not!
(Now that I'm reading Kloosterhuis, researching his sources on Rottembourg is on my to-do list, because I need to compare their reliability to the reliability of the sources that are telling me Rottembourg wasn't in Madrid that year. Also the Schulenburgs, I need to research the contradictions between Kloosterhuis' genealogy and Wikipedia's. So much salon, so little time! My number one priority is I need to finish studying German so I can start studying French!)
Oh, if the Wust people have any definitive proof for the claim that Ludolf von Katte married Mme. du Rosey in 1755, that would be awesome. Lehndorff says his hopes of marrying her are fading in 1753, so if it took her another 2 years to marry Ludolf, that would be super interesting.
Oh boy, an official title :'D Pressure's on.
Hee, no pressure! You're way ahead of some of us who can read a little German, slowly, barely read anything in Fraktur or any of its related godawful fonts, and no handwriting at all!
Thank you for the offer! I'm always trying to complete my Katte/trial collection, but most of what I find is really cheap, no need to complicate things ^^
Okay, let me know! It doesn't have to be strictly Katte, as long as it's of great interest to salon.
Just got the book of different monarchs' letters related to the trial
Oh, cool. I got that one a while back.
and am trying to get my hands on Kriegsgericht in Köpenick. Have been for months.
Huh. I haven't tried for that one, but it seems like there are several copies for sale when I search for it. I take it it's harder to find than it looks? If there's a more expensive copy that might be easier to acquire, lmk.
The seller had some problems locating his copy :'D
Omg, that keeps happening to me! Well, technically it happened once, but it happened at the same time as Amazon said they were out of stock of a related book and had no idea when it would be back in stock, and shortly before I received a rare book and instead received a really common book by a very similar title, same author, same year of publication! :'D (This is me trying and struggling to get my hands on a bunch of mostly out-of-print books mostly in another language I can't read (Italian) on the eighteenth-century Medici.)
Anyway. Onward and upward with the valiant quest!
Hee, no pressure! You're way ahead of some of us who can read a little German, slowly, barely read anything in Fraktur or any of its related godawful fonts, and no handwriting at all!
Thank you for the offer! I'm always trying to complete my Katte/trial collection, but most of what I find is really cheap, no need to complicate things ^^
Okay, let me know! It doesn't have to be strictly Katte, as long as it's of great interest to salon.
Just got the book of different monarchs' letters related to the trial
Oh, cool. I got that one a while back.
and am trying to get my hands on Kriegsgericht in Köpenick. Have been for months.
Huh. I haven't tried for that one, but it seems like there are several copies for sale when I search for it. I take it it's harder to find than it looks? If there's a more expensive copy that might be easier to acquire, lmk.
The seller had some problems locating his copy :'D
Omg, that keeps happening to me! Well, technically it happened once, but it happened at the same time as Amazon said they were out of stock of a related book and had no idea when it would be back in stock, and shortly before I received a rare book and instead received a really common book by a very similar title, same author, same year of publication! :'D (This is me trying and struggling to get my hands on a bunch of mostly out-of-print books mostly in another language I can't read (Italian) on the eighteenth-century Medici.)
Anyway. Onward and upward with the valiant quest!
Lots of people have been wanting transcriptions lately, maybe I should just do that full time :'D
I endorse this career choice! I can't employ you full-time, but I can pay you ad hoc for specific projects dear to my heart (once I get the actual documents). :D
I endorse this career choice! I can't employ you full-time, but I can pay you ad hoc for specific projects dear to my heart (once I get the actual documents). :D
The article about the Franckesche Stiftungen is here. Apparently it's partially a reaction to Roes' depiction of the school in Zeithain
Oh, yey. I haven't read it yet (see really really slow German), but I glanced at the first couple pages, and I notice Claudia Jarzebowski is cited! Selena read us one of her essays on Wilhelmine!
Oh, yey. I haven't read it yet (see really really slow German), but I glanced at the first couple pages, and I notice Claudia Jarzebowski is cited! Selena read us one of her essays on Wilhelmine!
I saw Wilhelmine's travel diary too, thought about buying it :DD
How much did you find it for? Because I paid $150 to snag it while I could, because the next cheapest copy I could find was like $500 for the full 3-volume set. Do you use book-finding sites that I could be using?
How much did you find it for? Because I paid $150 to snag it while I could, because the next cheapest copy I could find was like $500 for the full 3-volume set. Do you use book-finding sites that I could be using?
I'm sorry, I haven't read much about the details of Monmouth's and William's rebellions! But it's an interesting question--and that's interesting too about the Scottish component of Monmouth's rebellion. Yeah, the Argylls were consistently Whigs, although there were minority branches of the Campbell clan who fought in all the Jacobite rebellions as well.
Although actually the largest rebellion in this time period, in terms of popular support (measured by number of British people who took up arms in favor of it), was neither of these three rebellions, but the '15. Of course, it hardly had any foreign support.
It's not the first time that I wondered whether the Scottish/Jacobite connection was a case depending on James NOT being King and far, far away, and later, after his death, his son never having been in Scotland at all, for as long as James was King, Scotland doesn't exactly come across as a stronghold to him
Ha ha, yes. The grass is always greener with the monarch you don't have... Anyway, he alienated the Scottish burghs by trying to limit their independence, and of course the Presbyterians and Covenanters were always against him. But actually he had, as the Duke of York, been in the Highlands and strangely enough it seems that he didn't piss them off, but instead cooperated with the clans to suppress banditry, instead of blaming the clans for it and repressing them with military force. (This is from a book called Clanship, Commerce and the House of Stuart, 1603-1788 by Allan I. Macinnes (1996)). So I guess that might explain why a fair number of the clans fought for him later.
But earlier than that, the Stuarts were always trying to impose royal authority on the Highlands, so it's not like there was any love lost there, historically speaking.
Although actually the largest rebellion in this time period, in terms of popular support (measured by number of British people who took up arms in favor of it), was neither of these three rebellions, but the '15. Of course, it hardly had any foreign support.
It's not the first time that I wondered whether the Scottish/Jacobite connection was a case depending on James NOT being King and far, far away, and later, after his death, his son never having been in Scotland at all, for as long as James was King, Scotland doesn't exactly come across as a stronghold to him
Ha ha, yes. The grass is always greener with the monarch you don't have... Anyway, he alienated the Scottish burghs by trying to limit their independence, and of course the Presbyterians and Covenanters were always against him. But actually he had, as the Duke of York, been in the Highlands and strangely enough it seems that he didn't piss them off, but instead cooperated with the clans to suppress banditry, instead of blaming the clans for it and repressing them with military force. (This is from a book called Clanship, Commerce and the House of Stuart, 1603-1788 by Allan I. Macinnes (1996)). So I guess that might explain why a fair number of the clans fought for him later.
But earlier than that, the Stuarts were always trying to impose royal authority on the Highlands, so it's not like there was any love lost there, historically speaking.
I don't think I am, I found a German translation that's being sold by a tiny publisher from Bayreuth (and has an atrocious cover) for about 15 Euros. Didn't necessarily look like something I'd cite for a paper. I didn't get it, so I don't know if it's abridged in any way either... My usual book finding sites don't have it at all right now. I don't think the auction house's sites for book auction records had it either, I remember looking for Mine's works there... I wish my internship wasn't over, maybe I could find something about different editions with their ressources
The book isn't hard to acquire, but now I'm a little attached to the vaguely confused seller :'D A history Professor from Berlin who actually worked on a book about Fritz at some point (don't remember which one right now, I didn't read it. I think it was one about his relationship to other european countries). I should write him another e-mail, ask how his vacation went and whether he's found the book by now or whether I should look for a different copy :'D
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