Glad you liked it! Credit to you for finding Czernin and pointing me in that direction.
I think you would like the whole work, it's only 200 pages, and it is at the Stabi. Before I bought it, I was naturally checking to see if you could get it in e-book form on the Stabi website, because it's so recent, but alas, no. But what I did find is the "people who research this book are also interested in" item description that read:
Grösse und Niedergang Roms: (1734) = Considérations sur les causes de la grandeur des Romains et de leur décadence; Montesquieu. Mit den Randbemerkungen Friedrichs des Grossen. Übers. und hrsg. von Lothar Schuckert. Fischer-Taschenbuch-Verl., Frankfurt am Main, 1980
In other words, the greatness and decline of Rome, by Montesquieu, with marginal notes by our Fritz! Since the publication date is 1980 and the text is translated, I'm guessing that means Schuckert translated not just the work but also the Fritzian notes into German. I would be super interested to know what Fritz thought of Montesquieu's take on the greatness and decline of Rome! As we've seen, Fritz has some iiiiinteresting Classics opinions! (Socrates was killed? All the sculptors' faults!)
Meaning: the very guy who was getting the Disney reports on FW from Stratemann,
What.
Now either Montesquieu is employing liberal dramatization of what he’s heard, or Stain had other informants than Stratemann, or….?
Well, he can't just be liberally dramatizing what he got from Stratemann via Stain, because his take on FW matches too many other people's. Especially FW starving his family--one of the sentences reads like it could have come straight out of Wilhelmine.
Montesquieu:
One dies of hunger there [at FW's table]. Only one dish is served at a time, which is passed around, and often almost all of it is consumed before the round is over.
Wilhelmine:
There were constantly twenty-four persons at table, eighteen of whom were kept fasting, because our ordinary consisted but of six dishes, and those very sparingly filled.
Whether or not this is an exaggerated anti-FW take like Rottembourg and his two-pronged fork accusation, it's unlikely Montesquieu independently made it up based on Mr. Disney.
Also, I didn't recognize Stain's name, and sure enough, the Stratemann volume's preface names Minister Hieronymus von Münchhausen as the intended recipient of his reports. Doesn't mean von Stain didn't see them, but it would help account for a discrepancy. I imagine one or both of Münchhausen and Stain had other sources.
directed the business of the negotiations conducted in Braunschweig in 1729 under the mediation of the Dukes of Braunschweig and Gotha, which resulted in a settlement of the disputes pending between Prussia and England at the time.
So I imagine he 1) didn't see FW as a saint, 2) had more than one source on him!
it seems Montesquieu spotted future federalism in the HRE structure and liked it
I saw that from the table of contents! I was really hoping to read a lot more, including this, last week, before I did my first post, but reading a lot of German last week did not happen.
also thought Germans in general were somewhat thick and not capable of intellectual thought and not even that well suited as servants.
...Did not catch that. Sigh.
Finally: lovely pictures, thank you for sharing! And lucky you and lucky Georges!
Okay, I ordered Montesquieus German travels from the Stabi, but his take on the decline and fall of the Roman empire with Fritzian commentary - which I also would love to know! - is only available in the reading room. Not the special one, thankfully, but the reading room nonetheless. See here. The French original, otoh, WITH the Fritz comments is available to be taken home. But I'm not up to Montesquieu AND Fritz in French, Mildred.
ETA: Just saw I could get it as a paperback for less than 7 Euro. Okay, ordered.
Especially FW starving his family
One of many things Wallat & Droyson accuse Wilhelmine of inventing out of thin air, I might add.
But I'm not up to Montesquieu AND Fritz in French, Mildred.
LOLOL, I didn't think so, which is why I pointed you toward a German copy! Although feel free to start studying French any time, I'm going to be busy with German for a while longer. ;)
ETA: Just saw I could get it as a paperback for less than 7 Euro. Okay, ordered.
Excellent! Such a dedicated salon we are.
One of many things Wallat & Droyson accuse Wilhelmine of inventing out of thin air, I might add.
And not just them, but didn't you in recent months find modern scholars arguing that FW provided abundant food, just middle-class German food instead of fancy French food? (I don't necessarily find envoys' experiences counterevidence; people often punish children by making them go hungry
I wish we had the source for Ziebura's report that AW said he was half-starved as a child (which, admittedly, was apparently a thing for royals and nobles in the 18th century, and often had more to do with servant neglect than parental intentions). I'd love to know where that comes from. I also wish the summary of his life, exaggerated arrest in Strasbourg included, had been published by someone!
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Re: Montesquieu in Germany
Glad you liked it! Credit to you for finding Czernin and pointing me in that direction.
I think you would like the whole work, it's only 200 pages, and it is at the Stabi. Before I bought it, I was naturally checking to see if you could get it in e-book form on the Stabi website, because it's so recent, but alas, no. But what I did find is the "people who research this book are also interested in" item description that read:
Grösse und Niedergang Roms: (1734) = Considérations sur les causes de la grandeur des Romains et de leur décadence; Montesquieu. Mit den Randbemerkungen Friedrichs des Grossen. Übers. und hrsg. von Lothar Schuckert. Fischer-Taschenbuch-Verl., Frankfurt am Main, 1980
In other words, the greatness and decline of Rome, by Montesquieu, with marginal notes by our Fritz! Since the publication date is 1980 and the text is translated, I'm guessing that means Schuckert translated not just the work but also the Fritzian notes into German. I would be super interested to know what Fritz thought of Montesquieu's take on the greatness and decline of Rome! As we've seen, Fritz has some iiiiinteresting Classics opinions! (Socrates was killed? All the sculptors' faults!)
Meaning: the very guy who was getting the Disney reports on FW from Stratemann,
What.
Now either Montesquieu is employing liberal dramatization of what he’s heard, or Stain had other informants than Stratemann, or….?
Well, he can't just be liberally dramatizing what he got from Stratemann via Stain, because his take on FW matches too many other people's. Especially FW starving his family--one of the sentences reads like it could have come straight out of Wilhelmine.
Montesquieu:
One dies of hunger there [at FW's table]. Only one dish is served at a time, which is passed around, and often almost all of it is consumed before the round is over.
Wilhelmine:
There were constantly twenty-four persons at table, eighteen of whom were kept fasting, because our ordinary consisted but of six dishes, and those very sparingly filled.
Whether or not this is an exaggerated anti-FW take like Rottembourg and his two-pronged fork accusation, it's unlikely Montesquieu independently made it up based on Mr. Disney.
Also, I didn't recognize Stain's name, and sure enough, the Stratemann volume's preface names Minister Hieronymus von Münchhausen as the intended recipient of his reports. Doesn't mean von Stain didn't see them, but it would help account for a discrepancy. I imagine one or both of Münchhausen and Stain had other sources.
Incidentally, the ADB says that von Stain in 1729
directed the business of the negotiations conducted in Braunschweig in 1729 under the mediation of the Dukes of Braunschweig and Gotha, which resulted in a settlement of the disputes pending between Prussia and England at the time.
So I imagine he 1) didn't see FW as a saint, 2) had more than one source on him!
it seems Montesquieu spotted future federalism in the HRE structure and liked it
I saw that from the table of contents! I was really hoping to read a lot more, including this, last week, before I did my first post, but reading a lot of German last week did not happen.
also thought Germans in general were somewhat thick and not capable of intellectual thought and not even that well suited as servants.
...Did not catch that. Sigh.
Finally: lovely pictures, thank you for sharing! And lucky you and lucky Georges!
Re: Montesquieu in Germany
ETA: Just saw I could get it as a paperback for less than 7 Euro. Okay, ordered.
Especially FW starving his family
One of many things Wallat & Droyson accuse Wilhelmine of inventing out of thin air, I might add.
Re: Montesquieu in Germany
LOLOL, I didn't think so, which is why I pointed you toward a German copy! Although feel free to start studying French any time, I'm going to be busy with German for a while longer. ;)
ETA: Just saw I could get it as a paperback for less than 7 Euro. Okay, ordered.
Excellent! Such a dedicated salon we are.
One of many things Wallat & Droyson accuse Wilhelmine of inventing out of thin air, I might add.
And not just them, but didn't you in recent months find modern scholars arguing that FW provided abundant food, just middle-class German food instead of fancy French food? (I don't necessarily find envoys' experiences counterevidence; people often punish children by making them go hungry
I wish we had the source for Ziebura's report that AW said he was half-starved as a child (which, admittedly, was apparently a thing for royals and nobles in the 18th century, and often had more to do with servant neglect than parental intentions). I'd love to know where that comes from. I also wish the summary of his life, exaggerated arrest in Strasbourg included, had been published by someone!