Say what you want about Seckendorff, but he definitely was up to the task. That is, I suspect FW never entirely was able to let go of the suspicion a dastardly scheme against him was foiled in 1719, but Seckendorff certainly had his hear more often than not until the last minute turnaround on the English/Braunschweig marriage projects in 1733, which wasn't Seckendorff's fault. so: good choice of envoy, Eugene!
Sophie of Hanover is with you on that, Arneth! Alas, Campaign Make Eugene FW's Role Model failed.
Arneth's "compare and contrast" of FW and Eugene at times was so close to Sophie's letters that I wondered whether he read them, but if so, he'd have to read them in the Prussian State Archive, as they hadn't been published yet. BTW, the way he sees FW's attitude to Eugene is:
Crown Prince FW: Hero worship because 'twas the era for fanboying Eugene. Young King FW: *hears a Eugene critique about promised Pussian support showing up, is insulted* =>cooling down, but still respect. Arneth says FW was constitutionally incapable of ever accepting he might have done something wrong, of course. FW in Clement Plot era and shortly thereafter: ET TU, EUGENE? I see through you now! FW post Seckendorff's arrival through the 1730s: Eugene: still the man... I guess. I'm sending animals for his menagerie as presents and tokens of respect because he won't accept any money, jewelry or silver drinking cups like August. But much as he's a military legend, he's also a Catholic, and I'm still not sure whether he wouldn't have kidnapped and assassinated me back in 1719 to get his hands on Fritz...
Eugene's attitude to FW throughout: I respect him as a monarch who actually works. But as I am the type of general who thinks parades are boring, I don't get his thing for them. As for his much praised army, I suspect the first time they see actual battle instead of parades and maneuvres, a full third of them will desert. And good lord, that temper!
All my sources on diplomacy from 1700-1731 show diplomats and heads of state constantly complaining about the unreliable and indecisive FW.
Which is why you can feel Arneth's frustration that the Prussians succesfully grabbed the narrative and made everyone pity poor, honest FW whose unrequited loyalty to his Emperor gets constantly exploited by the evil and slimy Austrians. Or by perfidioius Albion, if the writers are closer to the end of the 19th century and the German/British rivalry is heating up. But either way, the image is "FW might have been shouty and brutal, but he was Prussian honesty and reliability personified! Most honest man of the 18th century"
This is the one where Suhm offered Saxon mediation, iirc?
And Manteuffel went WTF?!? at him for it, yes.
It's your karma for doubting the MT series! ;) References to this marriage-that-didn't-happen are going to keep following you around!
Evidently. Which reminds me, someone still ought to do a separate Rheinsberg entry on the implication of Katte and Fritz diverging in their testimony on this one particular point and how now one ever seems to have realized this means Fritz point blank lied to Katte as part of persuading him to join the escape plan.
We did! Wilhelmine says so!
Mea culpa, but it's so like you to recall every detail of her Katte relevant statements. :)
Aww, man. I thought that was at Zeithain!
Me too, but evidently FW did it more than once. It's also interesting and telling about the social norms of the time that Seckendorff, who isn't a fan of young Fritz, still considers both the earlier verbal abuse ("titles worse than the most low-born man would shower his son with") and the hair dragging and chewing out beyond the pale. (So much for "FW was just acting like a normal German Hausvater".)
Both parties had everything to gain from a future queen on the throne of the other country, and little to gain from limiting the possibilities for alliances for their own heir.
That is true, though it has to be said that the Princess G2 ended up marrying Fritz of Wales to came from a far less important German principality and brought practically nothing to the table but being impeccably Protestant. Where I'm going with this: while FW might have okay'd Wilhelmine/FoW if the Brits had been willing to take her on her own, one shouldn't discount that one reason why both G2 and Caroline dragged out marrying off their eldest wasn't that they were hoping for a good alliance - honestly, in terms of available Protestant princesses at the time, I think Wilhelmine would have been the best match bar none, even without counting the fact she'd been literally educated from birth with this end goal in mind - but because their relationship with Fritz of Wales got worse and worse, and there was the not so hidden hope he'd die without an heir so favourite son Bill Cumberland would become King after all. I mean, even before FoW had set one foot on British soil, i.e. at a point where he really could not have done anything yet to piss them off, they were investigating possibilities to change the succession or at least split Hannover from Britain so Cumberland could inherit at least one. And if they'd gone ahead and married Wilhelmine to Fritz of Wales, say, in early 1730, the last point when it seemed still possible, this would have strenghtened unfave's FoW's position, especially if FW had given her a decent dowry after all, but even if not. She wasn't a shy wallflower like Augusta would be, she was a top educated woman of whom it could be expected to do well in establishing a rival court (much like Caroline herself had done when G2 had been Prince of Wales), and because her mother had been so fertile, she'd have been considered likely to reproduce at once, too. Paradoxically, all those qualities usually plusses in the royal marriage market might have worked as negatives with parents who really did not like their eldest son and didn't want him as successor.
As I recall, he also said that Amalia was going to encourage Fritz in a love of luxury so she could have things more like she was used to (like SD).
He did. Though having now read the letters of young SD and FW to Sophie and Sophie's to them, I have to say this is FW rewriting the past somewhat. Sure, F1 made much of his new daughter-in-law and surrounded her with luxury, but that was F1. SD herself says she's getting spoiled, i.e. this is not the norm of what she was used to from her Hannover childhood. And Schnath says that G1 as Prince Elector of Hannover wasn't a big money spender. (SD was already married by the time her father became King of England.) Now undoubtedly she was used to a more princely style than what FW would eventually offer, but not to, say, something like what the mistresses of August the Strong got, let alone Versailles.
Well, I'm glad you at least weren't expecting to get the 1730s money back, which makes it true that you weren't a usurer where he was concerned. ;)
This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask you: since Fritz wasn't privy to these letters between Eugene and Seckendorff - how much did he, personally, blame Seckendorff and Team Vienna in general for his late 1720s/early 1730s miseries? You mentioned his anti-Seckendorff outburst in a letter to Suhm; does this offer a good indication of this?
Which reminds me, someone still ought to do a separate Rheinsberg entry on the implication of Katte and Fritz diverging in their testimony on this one particular point and how now one ever seems to have realized this means Fritz point blank lied to Katte as part of persuading him to join the escape plan.
Yeah, it's been on my Trello list since you first mentioned it, because I agree. The obstacle has been that it's been spread across a number of not-very-searchable posts ("marriage"? "MT"? neither of those is going to narrow it down) that I no longer remember what they all are.
I was actually planning to ask you to help me flesh out my memory on what our sources are.
- Hinrichs for Katte saying he had to help his boyfriend escape the evil Catholic plot. - Förster for the Seckendorff and Eugene correspondence on Fritz's 1731 marriage proposal. - Zimmermann for how it would have been totally awesome. - Nicolai interviewing Muller Jr. who was all, "Fritz would NEVER!"
What else? I think as late as 1732 or even 1733 Fritz was writing "The Empress should give me her daughter rather than her niece," but to whom? Grumbkow?
And I feel like I'm missing something else, possibly several something elses. Help me out here.
Once I have the sources, it'll be easier for me to put the post together. I mean, possibly after RMSE (Peter Keith essay also currently on hold), but still.
What else? I think as late as 1732 or even 1733 Fritz was writing "The Empress should give me her daughter rather than her niece," but to whom? Grumbkow?
Grumbkow, and as far as I recall it was but the last of a whole series of such suggestions to Grumbkow, starting with the one which might even have been in late 1731, not 1732, where Fritz woke up his small Küstrin entourage to have them all sign on a letter to Grumbkow suggesting a him/MT match and Grumbkow wrote horrified WTF? letters to both Eugene and to one of the Küstrin guys. I also remember first coming across one of the "Fritz suggests marrying MT to Grumbkow" letters in one of the German editions, possibly the one which also has the letter of Fritz mentioning Katte to Grumbkow (which as I recall wasn't in the French Trier letters) in the context of his ditching Manteuffel.
Hinrichs also in "Der Kronprinzenprozess" has Fritz repeatedly denying ever telling Katte of the Evil Catholic Marriage Plot, remember, and both quotes - from Katte and from Fritz - are really important since this is the one issue where their testimonies diverged.
Nicolai isn't a witness, but he does express - in his refutation of Zimmermann's "Fritz didn't want to escape to England or France, he totally wanted to go to Austria to marry MT!" - the in retrospect insightful opinion that the Katte who wrote such good Protestant Christian last letters would never have signed on to such a project (of Fritz marrying a Catholic Archduchess).
Thanks! I've added these to my notes and will do a post someday.
Grumbkow, and as far as I recall it was but the last of a whole series of such suggestions to Grumbkow, starting with the one which might even have been in late 1731, not 1732, where Fritz woke up his small Küstrin entourage to have them all sign on a letter to Grumbkow suggesting a him/MT match and Grumbkow wrote horrified WTF? letters to both Eugene and to one of the Küstrin guys.
I think that might have been the April 1731 episode, which I remember Grumbkow being involved in.
Hinrichs also in "Der Kronprinzenprozess" has Fritz repeatedly denying ever telling Katte of the Evil Catholic Marriage Plot, remember, and both quotes - from Katte and from Fritz - are really important since this is the one issue where their testimonies diverged.
Yes, I remember! I was taking that as said when I included Hinrichs in the list of sources.
Nicolai isn't a witness, but he does express - in his refutation of Zimmermann's "Fritz didn't want to escape to England or France, he totally wanted to go to Austria to marry MT!" - the in retrospect insightful opinion that the Katte who wrote such good Protestant Christian last letters would never have signed on to such a project (of Fritz marrying a Catholic Archduchess).
Oh, right, I'd forgotten that! And we commended him for figuring that out without access to the archival sources!
Incidentally, given how bad the Punctae made Katte look in the eyes of someone like Eugene, and if that "The tyrant demands blood" quote was real, and given that the Punctae wasn't even in his handwriting, I still wish I knew whose idea it was, what they said to Katte (assuming it was someone else's idea), and what he was thinking when he wrote it. Like, I've come around to believing he wasn't faking the piety at the end, but how repentant was he about the escape attempt, actually? Maybe he felt like Dad: okay, shouldn't have done it, but the punishment was really disproportionate?
Like, I've come around to believing he wasn't faking the piety at the end, but how repentant was he about the escape attempt, actually? Maybe he felt like Dad: okay, shouldn't have done it, but the punishment was really disproportionate?
That would be my guess, because I do think the "the tyrant demands blood" quote is authentic, not least because this is Katte talking to a regiment comrade whom he can be reasonably sure won't report it to either his father or FW, and also because all the other reports of Katte walking to his death puts such a heavy emphasis on Katte's Christian fortitude and bravery - it's not the kind of story you'd make up if you were basing your idea of Katte on what was available to the public at the time, i.e. the Pamphlet with the last letters.
Whose idea the Punctae were: my money is on Müller, with maybe FW having given strong hints to Müller when charging him with the task. Given that the phrasing of the Punctae re: flattery is (in the negative) almost identical with how FW puts it both in his known letters and on the occasion of the August 1731 public submission - that Fritz only listened to flatterers goading him against his father and telling him what he wanted to hear, and never to people (read: FW) who had his actual welfare in mind -, I think that some kind of FW nvolvement is more than likely. Not in the sense that he actually dictated the Punctae to Müller who got Katte to sign off on them, but in the sense of saying that if Katte was truly repentant and wanted to do a good thing before he died, he should encourage Fritz to see things his father's way etc. And then Müller said something like "Young man, if you want to do one last thing for your friend, this would help reconcile him to his father and would also show the King you did repent your deed."
However, playing devil's advocate: all the editorial chiding of Wilhelmine for having been a bad daughter I encountered these last years underlined to me again just how big the taboo of a child going against their (male) parent was in the historical patriarchy, and Katte was when all is said and done a child of his time, who in addition to said taboo may have felt guilty for the military part of his "misdeamanour", because of the Prussian Kool-Aid, i.e.: as many a FW defender pointed out, as a part of the army he was guilty of attempted desertion, betraying his supreme commander by not reporting Fritz' plans in the first place, and conspiracy with foreign powers (the Dickens conversations). Now the FW essay collection had I think Kloosterhuis arguing again that given FW's state of health and the fact Fritz was his successor, you could even argue that the whole thing counted as an attempted coup against the government. I don't think so, but FW most certainly did, and by November 1730, Katte, who lived in a society FW had imprinted with his mindset to a degree at least, had been talking for months with people argueing that view as well. I mean, Fritz pre Katte's execution sounds defiant in his letters to Wilhelmine, and certainly not broken or believing he'd done wrong (other than by getting caught and causing Katte go get caught). But Katte is in a somewhat different psychological position. Fritz is absolutely convinced (with reason) FW won't execute him, and he knows how unbearable his treatment has been. Katte is increasingly sure he will die, he also - if he says the truth re: that in his interrogation and didn't massage it somewhat for FW - has known from the start this was a bad idea and yet eventually signed on anyway, and if he dies, he's going to face divine judgment for having acted both against the law and against his own better knowledge. True, after his death at least one preacher will write to his father in a way that casts Katte as a martyr who has been unjustly slain. But before his death, he's more likely to have heard from any FW approved preacher that he could end up in hell for his sins (leaving completely aside whether or not he and Fritz were lovers, and whether Katte feels guilty on that count as well) if he doesn't repent.
So: as advocatus diaboli, I could make a psychological case that Katte did truly repent. However, as not to spoil your Sunday, let me add this: our friend Peter Keith was just as much a child of the 18th century and raised with the Prussian Kool-Aid. I haven't seen any indication he ever felt guilty for either deserting or conspiring with Fritz or keeping secrets from his sovereign. He may have felt survivor's guilt later, but that's our interpretation. What we don't from him is a quote along the lines of "yeah, really shouldn't have done that!" So it's just as possible Katte felt himself justified in the Lutheran sense because he'd acted on both his friend's and his future sovereign's behalf, and he had seen to much not to believe that helping Fritz in this particular situation was the only thing he could have done, in the end. After all, this is the man who minutes before his death tells Fritz there is nothing to forgive and he dies gladly for him. (Which is a different thing than dying for his sins.)
Whose idea the Punctae were: my money is on Müller
Agreed, that's my thought as well..
with maybe FW having given strong hints to Müller when charging him with the task.
Maybe, but FW wrote Müller a letter saying, "I've never met you, but I've heard good things. Please try to make my son repentant, but be careful and make sure he's *really* repentant, because he's a lying liar who lies." Now, the letter (in Youth Documents in the library) ends with "...", so there may well be "and make Katte write a last letter" stuff that the editor didn't see fit to include, or there may be another letter, but I'm inclined to think FW didn't give him this task explicitly, because I would have thought the editor would include it, since it would be too relevant to Fritz to omit.
What occurs to me is that FW confronted Katte in person at his arrest, and started yelling and hitting him. I mean, I forget if that's from a reliable source, but I think it is?
He may have been yelling about flattery and Absalom and stuff to Katte, and Katte may have been inclined to try to appease FW's fears in the last letter. So it's possible he got his insights into what FW was thinking from the horse's mouth.
Katte was when all is said and done a child of his time, who in addition to said taboo may have felt guilty for the military part of his "misdeamanour", because of the Prussian Kool-Aid
Yeah, I always got the impression Katte was a partial Kool-aid drinker--like, it went against his nature but the societal forces were strong, and he was susceptible to them. The part where didn't want to join the army but did, went AWOL in England and thoght about staying but then decided to come back (and got reprimanded for going AWOL!), and tried to talk Fritz out of escaping/deserting (probably less than he claimed he did, but enough that Fritz felt the need to lie to him) but then went along with it.
Ditto Peter, who was gung-ho about escaping, went for it without hesitation, and lived a civilian life in exile, but then decided he wanted to join the British navy. But then decided he hated the navy, but liked the climate in Portugal, so he got what appears to have been a nominal position in the army while using his time to study Portuguese, Spanish, and Italian and read books. And then by 1742, had broken under the weight of Prussian Kool-aid enough to ask to be allowed to go to war, but it's not clear that he ever did, and quite clearly seems to have focused on his civilian career rather than his still as-nominal-as-possible-in-Prussia military one. (I still wonder what Peter's responsibilities as Lt. Col. in peacetime actually were: I would assume regimental parade duties, but he had to be invited specially by Fritz to attend the top-secret military parade in Spandau in 1753 as a spectator, so...)
So: as advocatus diaboli, I could make a psychological case that Katte did truly repent. However, as not to spoil your Sunday
Hahaha, no, no worries. I've always had it as my headcanon that Katte's relationship with his own father, in the society in which he was indoctrinated, was such that he felt that you *should* obey your father even if he was strict; that some of Katte's reluctance to join the cause of desertion was because he partially blamed Fritz for provoking FW; and that it took him a while for the "this is not normal strict Prussian Hausvater behavior like my father's" to outweigh "but honor thy father!" in the scales for him.
So it's just as possible Katte felt himself justified in the Lutheran sense because he'd acted on both his friend's and his future sovereign's behalf, and he had seen to much not to believe that helping Fritz in this particular situation was the only thing he could have done, in the end. After all, this is the man who minutes before his death tells Fritz there is nothing to forgive and he dies gladly for him. (Which is a different thing than dying for his sins.)
Yes, I'm always struck by the fact that Katte's final priorities were wanting to visit Fritz the night before, wanting to reassure him of his blamelessness, and wanting to blow kisses at him. It's evidence relevant not just to the question of how much he repents, but also for the nature of his relationship to Fritz: while I'm sure he was all, "Sweet, I'm all set to be in the next king's good graces like my father with Fritz's father and my grandfather with Fritz's grandfather, and it's going to pay off," he really had nothing to gain from blowing kisses at Fritz at the last minute. I mean, unless he's thinking Fritz is going to do what he would end up doing for HH and Ludolf in the 1740s, but if you were only sucking up to a royal for the benefits, I'd think you'd be a little more resentful when that sucking up led you to get your head cut off.
You know, there's the Lavisse take on it: FW had no right to try to beat Fritz's personality out of him, but teenage Fritz had no right to defy his father in return and conspire against him. If that was Katte's attitude, that would be consistent with sympathy for the abused boyfriend at very the end and also the "never do it again" Punctae.
What occurs to me is that FW confronted Katte in person at his arrest, and started yelling and hitting him. I mean, I forget if that's from a reliable source, but I think it is?
I dimly recall this as well, but alas not the source.
Yes, I'm always struck by the fact that Katte's final priorities were wanting to visit Fritz the night before, wanting to reassure him of his blamelessness, and wanting to blow kisses at him. It's evidence relevant not just to the question of how much he repents, but also for the nature of his relationship to Fritz
Indeed, and I agree, while it's entirely plausible early on Katte, while truly liking Fritz, also imagined himself as the next King's right hand man or at least very much in his favor, by the time he died this part of it had become irrelevant. Mind you, I imagine back in 1729 he hoped for more than the (good) deal Hans Heinrich had gotten, because that involved working hard away from the royal presence. (Hans Heinrich wasn't actually with FW that often, was he? Given his governing in East Prussia.) If anyone from the previous generation, he might have seen himself as more Fritz' Grumbkow or Old Dessauer in years to come. But once he finally decided to go with the escape plan, he must have been ready to say goodbye to those dreams for at least the remainder of FW's life time, and be ready for the life of a penniless exile depending on the help of his family. (Both of them, assuming they'd have reached Britain, where in a best case scenario G2 would have supported Fritz' living expenses and Aunt Melusine those of Katte.) Unless they did a Eugene and offered their military service to another sovereign, earning their living that way, and since neither was keen on the army at this point, I'm assuming this hadn't been the plan. But Katte must have at least considered the possibility Uncle George would go "yeah, no" instead, and that Melusine and Petronella would have him as a guest only for a limited time, not forever. So at this point, affection certainly trumped ambition.
(Unless they really thought G2 would go "Fritz! You poor boy, marry Emily, have Hannover for your income, I'm looking forward to go mano a mano with your Dad AT LAST!" But surely Dickens told them this wasn't likely?)
Lavisse's take: it would be, and also with the way many an 18h century and 19th century writer interpreted King Fritz' own take on his past. I mean, even SECOND Chamberhussar calls him a model follower of the "Honor thy father" commandment in his memoirs. Voltaire is something of an outlier there with his "FW: an abusive fright" take in pamphlets and memoirs and letters, with no indication he thinks Crown Prince Fritz did anything wrong when rebelling and trying to escape, and even he doesn't claim this was Fritz' opinion (though it's clearly Voltaire's).
I dimly recall this as well, but alas not the source.
I'm pretty sure it's in Wilhelmine, but what I think I'm remembering is that we later found it backed up in one of the documentary sources, just not which one, or if I'm remembering correctly at all.
Mind you, I imagine back in 1729 he hoped for more than the (good) deal Hans Heinrich had gotten, because that involved working hard away from the royal presence.
Agreed, but I think what Katte would have had as his framework is "royal favor for the family, however that pans out in any given generation," and the real example he would have had before his eyes was Grandpa Wartensleben. Who, may I remind everyone else who needs it, was one of the three chief ministers for F1, who was *not* a micromanaging workaholic like his son and grandson, so the ministers had actual power. And I assume that in Katte's mind would have been the fact that if he had that kind of royal favor *and* he and Fritz were also lovers or at least close friends, as was not the case for HH and FW, then he could parlay that into a nice position that allowed him to spend time with Fritz, while also reaping in the rewards.
But as you say, the actual choices he made were to systematically distance himself from that possibility while drawing ever closer to Fritz, down to the last handkiss as he knelt in the sand.
where in a best case scenario G2 would have supported Fritz' living expenses and Aunt Melusine those of Katte.
And Queen Caroline Peter Keith's, as it played out in real life. ;)
Incidentally, Peter did not end up fabulously wealthy in exile, but he also got to be a gentleman of leisure and study and attend salons indefinitely, so that ended up being a pretty sweet deal. Maybe less so if he wanted to start a family and leave them well off, but as a bachelor in his twenties, that was a pretty good outcome for him financially.
(Unless they really thought G2 would go "Fritz! You poor boy, marry Emily, have Hannover for your income, I'm looking forward to go mano a mano with your Dad AT LAST!" But surely Dickens told them this wasn't likely?)
Indeed--in July, at least, and possibly earlier, Dickens was like, "Please don't run away. Your uncle really doesn't want you showing up. We'll give you money for your debts to keep you from running away."
And Fritz is like, "Okay, if Dad doesn't take me on the trip out west and leaves me behind, I promise not to run away while he's gone."
Later, to Katte, "Hahaha, I left a loophole for if he did take me on the trip, and also I told him I had twice as many debts as I do, so now we've got some money. Let's run away!"
But yeah, they definitely knew they weren't wanted, and if they did show up, they were going to have to push for whatever they got, and they had no way of knowing what that would be. (Peter, without any relatives in England to take him in *or* rich family back home to send him money, really took a gamble.)
it would be, and also with the way many an 18h century and 19th century writer interpreted King Fritz' own take on his past.
I know he said to Mitchell that he had no right to limit his bridal choices by promising in writing never to marry anyone but Emily, and I forget what non-Catt sources we have for other expressions of "I was young and stupid," but I definitely get that vibe from Fritz at least partially.
Voltaire is something of an outlier there with his "FW: an abusive fright"
Voltaire is something of an outlier there with his "FW: an abusive fright" take in pamphlets and memoirs and letters, with no indication he thinks Crown Prince Fritz did anything wrong when rebelling and trying to escape, and even he doesn't claim this was Fritz' opinion (though it's clearly Voltaire's).
Heh. Yeah, he's definitely the exception to the rule of "don't criticize one's parents," right? Voltaire is just about the only guy who is like "yeah, my dad sucked and you can suck rocks if you don't like it," so I guess it makes sense that he's totally okay with criticizing other people's parents and thinking that it's totally okay to try to rebel/escape.
As both Fritz and G2 would tell you, that's completely DIFFERENT. :)
I don't think we have a canon opinion on who was in the right and wrong from Fritz re: G1 vs G2, and G2 vs Fritz of Wales, just a general "that family is SO screwed up in their father/son relationships, how fortunate that we Hohenzollerns aren't like that at all". (Mitchell: MEANWHILE, on the Silesian Front...). G2, otoh, when Fritz of Wales published those letters from G2 to G1 when G2 was Prince of Wales was all indignation and "of course that was different! I was in the right then towards Dad, just as I'm in the right now towards that wretch Fritz!"
A bit more seriously, Hervey reports that Caroline and G2 did talk about how much better G2 treated Fritz of Wales than G1 had treated them, because G1 after the big bust up with G2 apropos the Christening had for a time not allowed G2 and Caroline to see their (Britain-based) children as a punishement. Whereas, says G2, he hadn't done this to Fritz of Wales and Augusta because HE would never separate a parent from their children. Which makes him the way better father than G1.
...You know, it didn't occur to me when reading Hervey's memoirs last year, but it did occur to me a month ago when reading all the Sophie stuff: G2, of course, had BEEN a child separated from his mother - by G1. So he's not just referencing the ten days or so separation G1 inflicted on him and Caroline after the baptizing scandal until he relented.
Hahaha, no, no worries. I've always had it as my headcanon that Katte's relationship with his own father, in the society in which he was indoctrinated, was such that he felt that you *should* obey your father even if he was strict; that some of Katte's reluctance to join the cause of desertion was because he partially blamed Fritz for provoking FW; and that it took him a while for the "this is not normal strict Prussian Hausvater behavior like my father's" to outweigh "but honor thy father!" in the scales for him.
I mean, I have thought about this far less than you :P but as someone who grew up at least partially in a culture that stresses filial piety as well as a religion that also greatly stresses family (though less specifically filial duty), I agree that all of this is quite plausible. As well as plausible that, as you proposed earlier, he did think that the escape attempt was all a terrible idea (mostly because of all the upbringing stuff, but maybe also because, well, getting caught wasn't going to be good, though worse than he thought) but thought the punishment was disproportionate.
Yes, I'm always struck by the fact that Katte's final priorities were wanting to visit Fritz the night before, wanting to reassure him of his blamelessness, and wanting to blow kisses at him. It's evidence relevant not just to the question of how much he repents, but also for the nature of his relationship to Fritz... if you were only sucking up to a royal for the benefits, I'd think you'd be a little more resentful when that sucking up led you to get your head cut off.
Ooh, that's a good point. Yeah, I'd think so too. That makes a lot of sense.
Mea culpa, but it's so like you to recall every detail of her Katte relevant statements. :)
Hahaha, well, there is something to be said for the deep dive into the sources I did (and shanghaied you into helping me with, a thousand handkisses to your august readerly self).
(So much for "FW was just acting like a normal German Hausvater".)
And I think it was Seckendorff who wrote that Fritz was so worn down trying to live up to FW's expectations that he was exhausted and moved like an old man, at the age of maybe 12. Note, Seckendorff thinks that normal 12-year-olds aren't treated like that.
how much did he, personally, blame Seckendorff and Team Vienna in general for his late 1720s/early 1730s miseries? You mentioned his anti-Seckendorff outburst in a letter to Suhm; does this offer a good indication of this?
Good question. I feel like I've run across relevant material, but the details are escaping my memory atm. As for the Seckendorff outburst, it's mostly about how S is objectively a terrible person (although a good general), but there is this:
After all, I pity him: it is true that a continued prosperity had rendered Seckendorf in supportable; it is true also, that all the chagrin he caused me merited retribution.
If you want the full quotes, this is the first passage from Fritz to Suhm:
You are undoubtedly informed of the fall of Seckendorf,* a just punishment for the wicked and bad actions he has committed. He has his turn at last; and after having long been the idol of fortune, he is become in decrepitude, the prey of his enemies. He is accused of horrid things, all very likely to be true, as they accord perfectly with his character! he is accused of letting the whole Imperial army want necessaries, to satisfy his sordid avarice. There is no exaction which is not imputed to him; his enemies lay to his charge the ill success of the last campaign, and the priesthood animates all the devotees against him on account of religion.
After all, I pity him: it is true that a continued prosperity had rendered Seckendorf insupportable; it is true also, that all the chagrin he caused me merited retribution; it is possible, that all the accusations brought against him may be well founded; but that, does not disprove that he has great and excellent military talents, and that he has it in his power more than any other person whatsoever, to render signal services to the Emperor. I suppose we shall soon know his fate.
Passage 2:
You speak of the recall of Seckendorf, and I add the news of his detention. He is actually arrested at Vienna. His enemies accuse him of an infinite number of malversations. The principal heads of the accusation are, the illicit means which he made use of to enrich himself during the last campaign. His friends give out here, that he will find the means of clearing himself from all these imputations, and that he will come as white as snow from his trial. For my part I doubt of it; for it is known that avarice was always his reigning vice. One thing is certain, and upon which you may rely, that his career is ended, and that the name of Seckendorf, will never more be heard spoken of.--- The Cardinal Nepote [Other Seckendorff, nephew of this Seckendorff, as discussed] has left Berlin, and is going to enter the service of Anspach.
What vicissitude! What rapid changes from the most brilliant fortune, to the most unexpected wretchedness! should an eloquent orator exclaim in this place-in fact he would not do amiss. Compare for a moment the situation of the Count Seckendorf in the year 1728, and the year 1729, with the one he is in at present. He was the arbiter of Germany; he regulated every thing, and in the most absolute and imperious manner in the world: he made treaties, reconciled or set powers at variance according to his good pleasure, and saw Princes and sovereigns debase themselves even so far as to make their court to him.
In the spring of the present year he governed at Vienna the whole Council of the Emperor; he conducted events as he thought proper, and disposed sovereignly of his whole army: six months are passed, and this man, whom a continued prosperity had elevated to the summit of the wheel of fortune, is at once precipitated from his sphere, without foreseeing the impetuosity of the stroke which bore him down; nothing remains to him but the hatred of the army which he commanded; and it may that the public waited but for the moment of his fall to declare themselves his enemy.
It is certain, that the intrigues of the Jesuits have contributed not a little, to his loss. I believe that Liechenstein contributed to it a good deal on his part; but it is certain that the P. de Dessau had his share in the business. This is one glaring example of the instability of fortune. Seckendorf has been its idol during his whole life, and now he is on the decline, in decrepitude, she turns her back to him. The King pities him much. For my part I feel for him, in case of his being innocent; but if he be culpable, I think him scarcely worthy of compassion.
And of course the passage from the memoirs with which you're familiar, as quoted by the editor of the Suhm correspondence in the footnotes:
The immortal author of the Memoirs of Brandenbourgh, speaks of him as follows: “The Count de Seckendorf, came to Berlin, immediately after the succession of George II. He served as General to the Emperor, and Saxony, at the same time; he was sordid; his manners were rude and very clownish; lying was so habitual to him, that he had lost the use of truth. He had the soul of an usurer, which passed at one time into the body of a military man, and at others, into that of a negociator. It was nevertheless this personage who was an instrument in the hands of Providence to break the treaty of Hanover, 1727. He took possession of the mind of the King, Frederick William, with so much address, that he prevailed on him to sign at Wusterhausen, a treaty with the Emperor."
See my discussion upthread of the Treaty of Hanover and the subsequent Treaty of Berlin (signed at Wusterhausen).
So yeah, I would say a whole lot of resentment, some grudging respect, and attempt to be fair.
One thing is certain, and upon which you may rely, that his career is ended, and that the name of Seckendorf, will never more be heard spoken of.
You wish, Fritz. MT is going to release him in just a few years, and then he'll become the main commander of the same Wittelsbach Emperor you're supporting, which means you have to team up with him repeatedly. He'll also arrange the negotations between MT and Maximilian of Wittelsbach leading to the Wittelsbachs resigning their claim to the HRE and getting Bavaria back.
Princes and sovereigns debase themselves even so far as to make their court to him
He's talking about himself, I guess? Also possibly August the Strong, but as far as I recall, August's main contact in Berlin were his envoy du jour, i.e. first Manteuffel, then Suhm, FW himself and Grumbkow, not Seckendorff, and if August wanted to negotiate with Vienna and the Emperor, there was an extra envoy in Saxony. But I can't think of any other prince who tried to court Seckendorff; it was Seckendorff doing the courting (and bribing). So basically Fritz is the only prince I can think of who abased himself in Seckendorff's direction.
lying was so habitual to him, that he had lost the use of truth
Takes one to know one. Seriously though, it amuses me that both Seckendorff and Fritz describe each other als lying liars who lie as a primary character trait. BTW, this is how Arneth describes Seckendorff:
Seckendorff was eminently suited to accomplish such a task. A rather small, insignificant man with ugly facial traits, with an almost repellent voice and manner of speaking, he still know how to make people almost forget his less than charming exterior through his unusual mental gifts. He connected a scientific education which was very unusual for a soldier of this time with a very sharp gaze with which he judged the political situations as well as the individuals who most influenced these situations. Added to this was the talent he had to compliment the different personalities and their quircks in a way that men with very different ways of thinking believed to recognize in him the man of their choice. That he was favored by Eugene of Savoye and Friedrich Wilhelm of Prussia at the same time is the best proof for the rightness of this claim.
It was especially the King whom he was able to manage maybe better than anyone before or after him ever could. Seckendorff knew how to hide his savvy under a mask of being a bluff soldier. Through relentless joining in the King's military exercises, the exhausting hunts and the meals as well as the then world famous "Tobacco Parliament", he had managed to make his company indespensible to the King. Thus, he won such an influence on the King of Prussia - bit by bit - , as was probably only paralleled in the one exerted by individual envoys of the Kings of Spain from the older line of the Habsburgs which had been sent to the court of Vienna.
Seckendorff's dazzling qualities were darkened by exaggarated avarice and austerity. However, this was not a flaw in the eyes of a King who as everyone knows loved, other than his soldiers, only money and the gain of territory. Moreover, he valued the accomplished general in Seckendorff and didn't like diplomats who were civilians.
Like Suhm, which is why Manteuffel - who had never, ever, served in any army - was such a notable exception to this rule, but then, he also could adopt a "bluff, honest straight-talker" persona for FW.
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Re: Arneth-Eugene-Seckendorff
Say what you want about Seckendorff, but he definitely was up to the task. That is, I suspect FW never entirely was able to let go of the suspicion a dastardly scheme against him was foiled in 1719, but Seckendorff certainly had his hear more often than not until the last minute turnaround on the English/Braunschweig marriage projects in 1733, which wasn't Seckendorff's fault. so: good choice of envoy, Eugene!
Sophie of Hanover is with you on that, Arneth! Alas, Campaign Make Eugene FW's Role Model failed.
Arneth's "compare and contrast" of FW and Eugene at times was so close to Sophie's letters that I wondered whether he read them, but if so, he'd have to read them in the Prussian State Archive, as they hadn't been published yet. BTW, the way he sees FW's attitude to Eugene is:
Crown Prince FW: Hero worship because 'twas the era for fanboying Eugene.
Young King FW: *hears a Eugene critique about promised Pussian support showing up, is insulted* =>cooling down, but still respect. Arneth says FW was constitutionally incapable of ever accepting he might have done something wrong, of course.
FW in Clement Plot era and shortly thereafter: ET TU, EUGENE? I see through you now!
FW post Seckendorff's arrival through the 1730s: Eugene: still the man... I guess. I'm sending animals for his menagerie as presents and tokens of respect because he won't accept any money, jewelry or silver drinking cups like August. But much as he's a military legend, he's also a Catholic, and I'm still not sure whether he wouldn't have kidnapped and assassinated me back in 1719 to get his hands on Fritz...
Eugene's attitude to FW throughout: I respect him as a monarch who actually works. But as I am the type of general who thinks parades are boring, I don't get his thing for them. As for his much praised army, I suspect the first time they see actual battle instead of parades and maneuvres, a full third of them will desert. And good lord, that temper!
All my sources on diplomacy from 1700-1731 show diplomats and heads of state constantly complaining about the unreliable and indecisive FW.
Which is why you can feel Arneth's frustration that the Prussians succesfully grabbed the narrative and made everyone pity poor, honest FW whose unrequited loyalty to his Emperor gets constantly exploited by the evil and slimy Austrians. Or by perfidioius Albion, if the writers are closer to the end of the 19th century and the German/British rivalry is heating up. But either way, the image is "FW might have been shouty and brutal, but he was Prussian honesty and reliability personified! Most honest man of the 18th century"
This is the one where Suhm offered Saxon mediation, iirc?
And Manteuffel went WTF?!? at him for it, yes.
It's your karma for doubting the MT series! ;) References to this marriage-that-didn't-happen are going to keep following you around!
Evidently. Which reminds me, someone still ought to do a separate Rheinsberg entry on the implication of Katte and Fritz diverging in their testimony on this one particular point and how now one ever seems to have realized this means Fritz point blank lied to Katte as part of persuading him to join the escape plan.
We did! Wilhelmine says so!
Mea culpa, but it's so like you to recall every detail of her Katte relevant statements. :)
Aww, man. I thought that was at Zeithain!
Me too, but evidently FW did it more than once. It's also interesting and telling about the social norms of the time that Seckendorff, who isn't a fan of young Fritz, still considers both the earlier verbal abuse ("titles worse than the most low-born man would shower his son with") and the hair dragging and chewing out beyond the pale. (So much for "FW was just acting like a normal German Hausvater".)
Both parties had everything to gain from a future queen on the throne of the other country, and little to gain from limiting the possibilities for alliances for their own heir.
That is true, though it has to be said that the Princess G2 ended up marrying Fritz of Wales to came from a far less important German principality and brought practically nothing to the table but being impeccably Protestant. Where I'm going with this: while FW might have okay'd Wilhelmine/FoW if the Brits had been willing to take her on her own, one shouldn't discount that one reason why both G2 and Caroline dragged out marrying off their eldest wasn't that they were hoping for a good alliance - honestly, in terms of available Protestant princesses at the time, I think Wilhelmine would have been the best match bar none, even without counting the fact she'd been literally educated from birth with this end goal in mind - but because their relationship with Fritz of Wales got worse and worse, and there was the not so hidden hope he'd die without an heir so favourite son Bill Cumberland would become King after all. I mean, even before FoW had set one foot on British soil, i.e. at a point where he really could not have done anything yet to piss them off, they were investigating possibilities to change the succession or at least split Hannover from Britain so Cumberland could inherit at least one. And if they'd gone ahead and married Wilhelmine to Fritz of Wales, say, in early 1730, the last point when it seemed still possible, this would have strenghtened unfave's FoW's position, especially if FW had given her a decent dowry after all, but even if not. She wasn't a shy wallflower like Augusta would be, she was a top educated woman of whom it could be expected to do well in establishing a rival court (much like Caroline herself had done when G2 had been Prince of Wales), and because her mother had been so fertile, she'd have been considered likely to reproduce at once, too. Paradoxically, all those qualities usually plusses in the royal marriage market might have worked as negatives with parents who really did not like their eldest son and didn't want him as successor.
As I recall, he also said that Amalia was going to encourage Fritz in a love of luxury so she could have things more like she was used to (like SD).
He did. Though having now read the letters of young SD and FW to Sophie and Sophie's to them, I have to say this is FW rewriting the past somewhat. Sure, F1 made much of his new daughter-in-law and surrounded her with luxury, but that was F1. SD herself says she's getting spoiled, i.e. this is not the norm of what she was used to from her Hannover childhood. And Schnath says that G1 as Prince Elector of Hannover wasn't a big money spender. (SD was already married by the time her father became King of England.) Now undoubtedly she was used to a more princely style than what FW would eventually offer, but not to, say, something like what the mistresses of August the Strong got, let alone Versailles.
Well, I'm glad you at least weren't expecting to get the 1730s money back, which makes it true that you weren't a usurer where he was concerned. ;)
This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask you: since Fritz wasn't privy to these letters between Eugene and Seckendorff - how much did he, personally, blame Seckendorff and Team Vienna in general for his late 1720s/early 1730s miseries? You mentioned his anti-Seckendorff outburst in a letter to Suhm; does this offer a good indication of this?
MT marriage AU sources
Yeah, it's been on my Trello list since you first mentioned it, because I agree. The obstacle has been that it's been spread across a number of not-very-searchable posts ("marriage"? "MT"? neither of those is going to narrow it down) that I no longer remember what they all are.
I was actually planning to ask you to help me flesh out my memory on what our sources are.
- Hinrichs for Katte saying he had to help his boyfriend escape the evil Catholic plot.
- Förster for the Seckendorff and Eugene correspondence on Fritz's 1731 marriage proposal.
- Zimmermann for how it would have been totally awesome.
- Nicolai interviewing Muller Jr. who was all, "Fritz would NEVER!"
What else? I think as late as 1732 or even 1733 Fritz was writing "The Empress should give me her daughter rather than her niece," but to whom? Grumbkow?
And I feel like I'm missing something else, possibly several something elses. Help me out here.
Once I have the sources, it'll be easier for me to put the post together. I mean, possibly after RMSE (Peter Keith essay also currently on hold), but still.
Re: MT marriage AU sources
Grumbkow, and as far as I recall it was but the last of a whole series of such suggestions to Grumbkow, starting with the one which might even have been in late 1731, not 1732, where Fritz woke up his small Küstrin entourage to have them all sign on a letter to Grumbkow suggesting a him/MT match and Grumbkow wrote horrified WTF? letters to both Eugene and to one of the Küstrin guys. I also remember first coming across one of the "Fritz suggests marrying MT to Grumbkow" letters in one of the German editions, possibly the one which also has the letter of Fritz mentioning Katte to Grumbkow (which as I recall wasn't in the French Trier letters) in the context of his ditching Manteuffel.
Hinrichs also in "Der Kronprinzenprozess" has Fritz repeatedly denying ever telling Katte of the Evil Catholic Marriage Plot, remember, and both quotes - from Katte and from Fritz - are really important since this is the one issue where their testimonies diverged.
Nicolai isn't a witness, but he does express - in his refutation of Zimmermann's "Fritz didn't want to escape to England or France, he totally wanted to go to Austria to marry MT!" - the in retrospect insightful opinion that the Katte who wrote such good Protestant Christian last letters would never have signed on to such a project (of Fritz marrying a Catholic Archduchess).
Re: MT marriage AU sources
Grumbkow, and as far as I recall it was but the last of a whole series of such suggestions to Grumbkow, starting with the one which might even have been in late 1731, not 1732, where Fritz woke up his small Küstrin entourage to have them all sign on a letter to Grumbkow suggesting a him/MT match and Grumbkow wrote horrified WTF? letters to both Eugene and to one of the Küstrin guys.
I think that might have been the April 1731 episode, which I remember Grumbkow being involved in.
Hinrichs also in "Der Kronprinzenprozess" has Fritz repeatedly denying ever telling Katte of the Evil Catholic Marriage Plot, remember, and both quotes - from Katte and from Fritz - are really important since this is the one issue where their testimonies diverged.
Yes, I remember! I was taking that as said when I included Hinrichs in the list of sources.
Nicolai isn't a witness, but he does express - in his refutation of Zimmermann's "Fritz didn't want to escape to England or France, he totally wanted to go to Austria to marry MT!" - the in retrospect insightful opinion that the Katte who wrote such good Protestant Christian last letters would never have signed on to such a project (of Fritz marrying a Catholic Archduchess).
Oh, right, I'd forgotten that! And we commended him for figuring that out without access to the archival sources!
Incidentally, given how bad the Punctae made Katte look in the eyes of someone like Eugene, and if that "The tyrant demands blood" quote was real, and given that the Punctae wasn't even in his handwriting, I still wish I knew whose idea it was, what they said to Katte (assuming it was someone else's idea), and what he was thinking when he wrote it. Like, I've come around to believing he wasn't faking the piety at the end, but how repentant was he about the escape attempt, actually? Maybe he felt like Dad: okay, shouldn't have done it, but the punishment was really disproportionate?
Katte psychology examined
That would be my guess, because I do think the "the tyrant demands blood" quote is authentic, not least because this is Katte talking to a regiment comrade whom he can be reasonably sure won't report it to either his father or FW, and also because all the other reports of Katte walking to his death puts such a heavy emphasis on Katte's Christian fortitude and bravery - it's not the kind of story you'd make up if you were basing your idea of Katte on what was available to the public at the time, i.e. the Pamphlet with the last letters.
Whose idea the Punctae were: my money is on Müller, with maybe FW having given strong hints to Müller when charging him with the task. Given that the phrasing of the Punctae re: flattery is (in the negative) almost identical with how FW puts it both in his known letters and on the occasion of the August 1731 public submission - that Fritz only listened to flatterers goading him against his father and telling him what he wanted to hear, and never to people (read: FW) who had his actual welfare in mind -, I think that some kind of FW nvolvement is more than likely. Not in the sense that he actually dictated the Punctae to Müller who got Katte to sign off on them, but in the sense of saying that if Katte was truly repentant and wanted to do a good thing before he died, he should encourage Fritz to see things his father's way etc. And then Müller said something like "Young man, if you want to do one last thing for your friend, this would help reconcile him to his father and would also show the King you did repent your deed."
However, playing devil's advocate: all the editorial chiding of Wilhelmine for having been a bad daughter I encountered these last years underlined to me again just how big the taboo of a child going against their (male) parent was in the historical patriarchy, and Katte was when all is said and done a child of his time, who in addition to said taboo may have felt guilty for the military part of his "misdeamanour", because of the Prussian Kool-Aid, i.e.: as many a FW defender pointed out, as a part of the army he was guilty of attempted desertion, betraying his supreme commander by not reporting Fritz' plans in the first place, and conspiracy with foreign powers (the Dickens conversations). Now the FW essay collection had I think Kloosterhuis arguing again that given FW's state of health and the fact Fritz was his successor, you could even argue that the whole thing counted as an attempted coup against the government. I don't think so, but FW most certainly did, and by November 1730, Katte, who lived in a society FW had imprinted with his mindset to a degree at least, had been talking for months with people argueing that view as well. I mean, Fritz pre Katte's execution sounds defiant in his letters to Wilhelmine, and certainly not broken or believing he'd done wrong (other than by getting caught and causing Katte go get caught). But Katte is in a somewhat different psychological position. Fritz is absolutely convinced (with reason) FW won't execute him, and he knows how unbearable his treatment has been. Katte is increasingly sure he will die, he also - if he says the truth re: that in his interrogation and didn't massage it somewhat for FW - has known from the start this was a bad idea and yet eventually signed on anyway, and if he dies, he's going to face divine judgment for having acted both against the law and against his own better knowledge. True, after his death at least one preacher will write to his father in a way that casts Katte as a martyr who has been unjustly slain. But before his death, he's more likely to have heard from any FW approved preacher that he could end up in hell for his sins (leaving completely aside whether or not he and Fritz were lovers, and whether Katte feels guilty on that count as well) if he doesn't repent.
So: as advocatus diaboli, I could make a psychological case that Katte did truly repent. However, as not to spoil your Sunday, let me add this: our friend Peter Keith was just as much a child of the 18th century and raised with the Prussian Kool-Aid. I haven't seen any indication he ever felt guilty for either deserting or conspiring with Fritz or keeping secrets from his sovereign. He may have felt survivor's guilt later, but that's our interpretation. What we don't from him is a quote along the lines of "yeah, really shouldn't have done that!" So it's just as possible Katte felt himself justified in the Lutheran sense because he'd acted on both his friend's and his future sovereign's behalf, and he had seen to much not to believe that helping Fritz in this particular situation was the only thing he could have done, in the end. After all, this is the man who minutes before his death tells Fritz there is nothing to forgive and he dies gladly for him. (Which is a different thing than dying for his sins.)
Re: Katte psychology examined
Agreed, that's my thought as well..
with maybe FW having given strong hints to Müller when charging him with the task.
Maybe, but FW wrote Müller a letter saying, "I've never met you, but I've heard good things. Please try to make my son repentant, but be careful and make sure he's *really* repentant, because he's a lying liar who lies." Now, the letter (in Youth Documents in the library) ends with "...", so there may well be "and make Katte write a last letter" stuff that the editor didn't see fit to include, or there may be another letter, but I'm inclined to think FW didn't give him this task explicitly, because I would have thought the editor would include it, since it would be too relevant to Fritz to omit.
What occurs to me is that FW confronted Katte in person at his arrest, and started yelling and hitting him. I mean, I forget if that's from a reliable source, but I think it is?
He may have been yelling about flattery and Absalom and stuff to Katte, and Katte may have been inclined to try to appease FW's fears in the last letter. So it's possible he got his insights into what FW was thinking from the horse's mouth.
Katte was when all is said and done a child of his time, who in addition to said taboo may have felt guilty for the military part of his "misdeamanour", because of the Prussian Kool-Aid
Yeah, I always got the impression Katte was a partial Kool-aid drinker--like, it went against his nature but the societal forces were strong, and he was susceptible to them. The part where didn't want to join the army but did, went AWOL in England and thoght about staying but then decided to come back (and got reprimanded for going AWOL!), and tried to talk Fritz out of escaping/deserting (probably less than he claimed he did, but enough that Fritz felt the need to lie to him) but then went along with it.
Ditto Peter, who was gung-ho about escaping, went for it without hesitation, and lived a civilian life in exile, but then decided he wanted to join the British navy. But then decided he hated the navy, but liked the climate in Portugal, so he got what appears to have been a nominal position in the army while using his time to study Portuguese, Spanish, and Italian and read books. And then by 1742, had broken under the weight of Prussian Kool-aid enough to ask to be allowed to go to war, but it's not clear that he ever did, and quite clearly seems to have focused on his civilian career rather than his still as-nominal-as-possible-in-Prussia military one. (I still wonder what Peter's responsibilities as Lt. Col. in peacetime actually were: I would assume regimental parade duties, but he had to be invited specially by Fritz to attend the top-secret military parade in Spandau in 1753 as a spectator, so...)
So: as advocatus diaboli, I could make a psychological case that Katte did truly repent. However, as not to spoil your Sunday
Hahaha, no, no worries. I've always had it as my headcanon that Katte's relationship with his own father, in the society in which he was indoctrinated, was such that he felt that you *should* obey your father even if he was strict; that some of Katte's reluctance to join the cause of desertion was because he partially blamed Fritz for provoking FW; and that it took him a while for the "this is not normal strict Prussian Hausvater behavior like my father's" to outweigh "but honor thy father!" in the scales for him.
So it's just as possible Katte felt himself justified in the Lutheran sense because he'd acted on both his friend's and his future sovereign's behalf, and he had seen to much not to believe that helping Fritz in this particular situation was the only thing he could have done, in the end. After all, this is the man who minutes before his death tells Fritz there is nothing to forgive and he dies gladly for him. (Which is a different thing than dying for his sins.)
Yes, I'm always struck by the fact that Katte's final priorities were wanting to visit Fritz the night before, wanting to reassure him of his blamelessness, and wanting to blow kisses at him. It's evidence relevant not just to the question of how much he repents, but also for the nature of his relationship to Fritz: while I'm sure he was all, "Sweet, I'm all set to be in the next king's good graces like my father with Fritz's father and my grandfather with Fritz's grandfather, and it's going to pay off," he really had nothing to gain from blowing kisses at Fritz at the last minute. I mean, unless he's thinking Fritz is going to do what he would end up doing for HH and Ludolf in the 1740s, but if you were only sucking up to a royal for the benefits, I'd think you'd be a little more resentful when that sucking up led you to get your head cut off.
You know, there's the Lavisse take on it: FW had no right to try to beat Fritz's personality out of him, but teenage Fritz had no right to defy his father in return and conspire against him. If that was Katte's attitude, that would be consistent with sympathy for the abused boyfriend at very the end and also the "never do it again" Punctae.
Re: Katte psychology examined
I dimly recall this as well, but alas not the source.
Yes, I'm always struck by the fact that Katte's final priorities were wanting to visit Fritz the night before, wanting to reassure him of his blamelessness, and wanting to blow kisses at him. It's evidence relevant not just to the question of how much he repents, but also for the nature of his relationship to Fritz
Indeed, and I agree, while it's entirely plausible early on Katte, while truly liking Fritz, also imagined himself as the next King's right hand man or at least very much in his favor, by the time he died this part of it had become irrelevant. Mind you, I imagine back in 1729 he hoped for more than the (good) deal Hans Heinrich had gotten, because that involved working hard away from the royal presence. (Hans Heinrich wasn't actually with FW that often, was he? Given his governing in East Prussia.) If anyone from the previous generation, he might have seen himself as more Fritz' Grumbkow or Old Dessauer in years to come. But once he finally decided to go with the escape plan, he must have been ready to say goodbye to those dreams for at least the remainder of FW's life time, and be ready for the life of a penniless exile depending on the help of his family. (Both of them, assuming they'd have reached Britain, where in a best case scenario G2 would have supported Fritz' living expenses and Aunt Melusine those of Katte.) Unless they did a Eugene and offered their military service to another sovereign, earning their living that way, and since neither was keen on the army at this point, I'm assuming this hadn't been the plan. But Katte must have at least considered the possibility Uncle George would go "yeah, no" instead, and that Melusine and Petronella would have him as a guest only for a limited time, not forever. So at this point, affection certainly trumped ambition.
(Unless they really thought G2 would go "Fritz! You poor boy, marry Emily, have Hannover for your income, I'm looking forward to go mano a mano with your Dad AT LAST!" But surely Dickens told them this wasn't likely?)
Lavisse's take: it would be, and also with the way many an 18h century and 19th century writer interpreted King Fritz' own take on his past. I mean, even SECOND Chamberhussar calls him a model follower of the "Honor thy father" commandment in his memoirs. Voltaire is something of an outlier there with his "FW: an abusive fright" take in pamphlets and memoirs and letters, with no indication he thinks Crown Prince Fritz did anything wrong when rebelling and trying to escape, and even he doesn't claim this was Fritz' opinion (though it's clearly Voltaire's).
Re: Katte psychology examined
I'm pretty sure it's in Wilhelmine, but what I think I'm remembering is that we later found it backed up in one of the documentary sources, just not which one, or if I'm remembering correctly at all.
Mind you, I imagine back in 1729 he hoped for more than the (good) deal Hans Heinrich had gotten, because that involved working hard away from the royal presence.
Agreed, but I think what Katte would have had as his framework is "royal favor for the family, however that pans out in any given generation," and the real example he would have had before his eyes was Grandpa Wartensleben. Who, may I remind everyone else who needs it, was one of the three chief ministers for F1, who was *not* a micromanaging workaholic like his son and grandson, so the ministers had actual power. And I assume that in Katte's mind would have been the fact that if he had that kind of royal favor *and* he and Fritz were also lovers or at least close friends, as was not the case for HH and FW, then he could parlay that into a nice position that allowed him to spend time with Fritz, while also reaping in the rewards.
But as you say, the actual choices he made were to systematically distance himself from that possibility while drawing ever closer to Fritz, down to the last handkiss as he knelt in the sand.
where in a best case scenario G2 would have supported Fritz' living expenses and Aunt Melusine those of Katte.
And Queen Caroline Peter Keith's, as it played out in real life. ;)
Incidentally, Peter did not end up fabulously wealthy in exile, but he also got to be a gentleman of leisure and study and attend salons indefinitely, so that ended up being a pretty sweet deal. Maybe less so if he wanted to start a family and leave them well off, but as a bachelor in his twenties, that was a pretty good outcome for him financially.
(Unless they really thought G2 would go "Fritz! You poor boy, marry Emily, have Hannover for your income, I'm looking forward to go mano a mano with your Dad AT LAST!" But surely Dickens told them this wasn't likely?)
Indeed--in July, at least, and possibly earlier, Dickens was like, "Please don't run away. Your uncle really doesn't want you showing up. We'll give you money for your debts to keep you from running away."
And Fritz is like, "Okay, if Dad doesn't take me on the trip out west and leaves me behind, I promise not to run away while he's gone."
Later, to Katte, "Hahaha, I left a loophole for if he did take me on the trip, and also I told him I had twice as many debts as I do, so now we've got some money. Let's run away!"
But yeah, they definitely knew they weren't wanted, and if they did show up, they were going to have to push for whatever they got, and they had no way of knowing what that would be. (Peter, without any relatives in England to take him in *or* rich family back home to send him money, really took a gamble.)
it would be, and also with the way many an 18h century and 19th century writer interpreted King Fritz' own take on his past.
I know he said to Mitchell that he had no right to limit his bridal choices by promising in writing never to marry anyone but Emily, and I forget what non-Catt sources we have for other expressions of "I was young and stupid," but I definitely get that vibe from Fritz at least partially.
Voltaire is something of an outlier there with his "FW: an abusive fright"
Voltaire, always an outlier. :D
Re: Katte psychology examined
Heh. Yeah, he's definitely the exception to the rule of "don't criticize one's parents," right? Voltaire is just about the only guy who is like "yeah, my dad sucked and you can suck rocks if you don't like it," so I guess it makes sense that he's totally okay with criticizing other people's parents and thinking that it's totally okay to try to rebel/escape.
Honor thy father
Re: Honor thy father
I don't think we have a canon opinion on who was in the right and wrong from Fritz re: G1 vs G2, and G2 vs Fritz of Wales, just a general "that family is SO screwed up in their father/son relationships, how fortunate that we Hohenzollerns aren't like that at all". (Mitchell: MEANWHILE, on the Silesian Front...). G2, otoh, when Fritz of Wales published those letters from G2 to G1 when G2 was Prince of Wales was all indignation and "of course that was different! I was in the right then towards Dad, just as I'm in the right now towards that wretch Fritz!"
A bit more seriously, Hervey reports that Caroline and G2 did talk about how much better G2 treated Fritz of Wales than G1 had treated them, because G1 after the big bust up with G2 apropos the Christening had for a time not allowed G2 and Caroline to see their (Britain-based) children as a punishement. Whereas, says G2, he hadn't done this to Fritz of Wales and Augusta because HE would never separate a parent from their children. Which makes him the way better father than G1.
...You know, it didn't occur to me when reading Hervey's memoirs last year, but it did occur to me a month ago when reading all the Sophie stuff: G2, of course, had BEEN a child separated from his mother - by G1. So he's not just referencing the ten days or so separation G1 inflicted on him and Caroline after the baptizing scandal until he relented.
Re: Katte psychology examined
I mean, I have thought about this far less than you :P but as someone who grew up at least partially in a culture that stresses filial piety as well as a religion that also greatly stresses family (though less specifically filial duty), I agree that all of this is quite plausible. As well as plausible that, as you proposed earlier, he did think that the escape attempt was all a terrible idea (mostly because of all the upbringing stuff, but maybe also because, well, getting caught wasn't going to be good, though worse than he thought) but thought the punishment was disproportionate.
Yes, I'm always struck by the fact that Katte's final priorities were wanting to visit Fritz the night before, wanting to reassure him of his blamelessness, and wanting to blow kisses at him. It's evidence relevant not just to the question of how much he repents, but also for the nature of his relationship to Fritz... if you were only sucking up to a royal for the benefits, I'd think you'd be a little more resentful when that sucking up led you to get your head cut off.
Ooh, that's a good point. Yeah, I'd think so too. That makes a lot of sense.
Re: Arneth-Eugene-Seckendorff
Hahaha, well, there is something to be said for the deep dive into the sources I did (and shanghaied you into helping me with, a thousand handkisses to your august readerly self).
(So much for "FW was just acting like a normal German Hausvater".)
And I think it was Seckendorff who wrote that Fritz was so worn down trying to live up to FW's expectations that he was exhausted and moved like an old man, at the age of maybe 12. Note, Seckendorff thinks that normal 12-year-olds aren't treated like that.
how much did he, personally, blame Seckendorff and Team Vienna in general for his late 1720s/early 1730s miseries? You mentioned his anti-Seckendorff outburst in a letter to Suhm; does this offer a good indication of this?
Good question. I feel like I've run across relevant material, but the details are escaping my memory atm. As for the Seckendorff outburst, it's mostly about how S is objectively a terrible person (although a good general), but there is this:
After all, I pity him: it is true that a continued prosperity had rendered Seckendorf in supportable; it is true also, that all the chagrin he caused me merited retribution.
If you want the full quotes, this is the first passage from Fritz to Suhm:
You are undoubtedly informed of the fall of Seckendorf,* a just punishment for the wicked and bad actions he has committed. He has his turn at last; and after having long been the idol of fortune, he is become in decrepitude, the prey of his enemies. He is accused of horrid things, all very likely to be true, as they accord perfectly with his character! he is accused of letting the whole Imperial army want necessaries, to satisfy his sordid avarice. There is no exaction which is not imputed to him; his enemies lay to his charge the ill success of the last campaign, and the priesthood animates all the devotees against him on account of religion.
After all, I pity him: it is true that a continued prosperity had rendered Seckendorf insupportable; it is true also, that all the chagrin he caused me merited retribution; it is possible, that all the accusations brought against him may be well founded; but that, does not disprove that he has great and excellent military talents, and that he has it in his power more than any other person whatsoever, to render signal services to the Emperor. I suppose we shall soon know his fate.
Passage 2:
You speak of the recall of Seckendorf, and I add the news of his detention. He is actually arrested at Vienna. His enemies accuse him of an infinite number of malversations. The principal heads of the accusation are, the illicit means which he made use of to enrich himself during the last campaign. His friends give out here, that he will find the means of clearing himself from all these imputations, and that he will come as white as snow from his trial. For my part I doubt of it; for it is known that avarice was always his reigning vice. One thing is certain, and upon which you may rely, that his career is ended, and that the name of Seckendorf, will never more be heard spoken of.--- The Cardinal Nepote [Other Seckendorff, nephew of this Seckendorff, as discussed] has left Berlin, and is going to enter the service of Anspach.
What vicissitude! What rapid changes from the most brilliant fortune, to the most unexpected wretchedness! should an eloquent orator exclaim in this place-in fact he would not do amiss. Compare for a moment the situation of the Count Seckendorf in the year 1728, and the year 1729, with the one he is in at present. He was the arbiter of Germany; he regulated every thing, and in the most absolute and imperious manner in the world: he made treaties, reconciled or set powers at variance according to his good pleasure, and saw Princes and sovereigns debase themselves even so far as to make their court to him.
In the spring of the present year he governed at Vienna the whole Council of the Emperor; he conducted events as he thought proper, and disposed sovereignly of his whole army: six months are passed, and this man, whom a continued prosperity had elevated to the summit of the wheel of fortune, is at once precipitated from his sphere, without foreseeing the impetuosity of the stroke which bore him down; nothing remains to him but the hatred of the army which he commanded; and it may that the public waited but for the moment of his fall to declare themselves his enemy.
It is certain, that the intrigues of the Jesuits have contributed not a little, to his loss. I believe that Liechenstein contributed to it a good deal on his part; but it is certain that the P. de Dessau had his share in the business. This is one glaring example of the instability of fortune. Seckendorf has been its idol during his whole life, and now he is on the decline, in decrepitude, she turns her back to him. The King pities him much. For my part I feel for him, in case of his being innocent; but if he be culpable, I think him scarcely worthy of compassion.
And of course the passage from the memoirs with which you're familiar, as quoted by the editor of the Suhm correspondence in the footnotes:
The immortal author of the Memoirs of Brandenbourgh, speaks of him as follows: “The Count de Seckendorf, came to Berlin, immediately after the succession of George II. He served as General to the Emperor, and Saxony, at the same time; he was sordid; his manners were rude and very clownish; lying was so habitual to him, that he had lost the use of truth. He had the soul of an usurer, which passed at one time into the body of a military man, and at others, into that of a negociator. It was nevertheless this personage who was an instrument in the hands of Providence to break the treaty of Hanover, 1727. He took possession of the mind of the King, Frederick William, with so much address, that he prevailed on him to sign at Wusterhausen, a treaty with the Emperor."
See my discussion upthread of the Treaty of Hanover and the subsequent Treaty of Berlin (signed at Wusterhausen).
So yeah, I would say a whole lot of resentment, some grudging respect, and attempt to be fair.
Re: Arneth-Eugene-Seckendorff
You wish, Fritz. MT is going to release him in just a few years, and then he'll become the main commander of the same Wittelsbach Emperor you're supporting, which means you have to team up with him repeatedly. He'll also arrange the negotations between MT and Maximilian of Wittelsbach leading to the Wittelsbachs resigning their claim to the HRE and getting Bavaria back.
Princes and sovereigns debase themselves even so far as to make their court to him
He's talking about himself, I guess? Also possibly August the Strong, but as far as I recall, August's main contact in Berlin were his envoy du jour, i.e. first Manteuffel, then Suhm, FW himself and Grumbkow, not Seckendorff, and if August wanted to negotiate with Vienna and the Emperor, there was an extra envoy in Saxony. But I can't think of any other prince who tried to court Seckendorff; it was Seckendorff doing the courting (and bribing). So basically Fritz is the only prince I can think of who abased himself in Seckendorff's direction.
lying was so habitual to him, that he had lost the use of truth
Takes one to know one. Seriously though, it amuses me that both Seckendorff and Fritz describe each other als lying liars who lie as a primary character trait. BTW, this is how Arneth describes Seckendorff:
Seckendorff was eminently suited to accomplish such a task. A rather small, insignificant man with ugly facial traits, with an almost repellent voice and manner of speaking, he still know how to make people almost forget his less than charming exterior through his unusual mental gifts. He connected a scientific education which was very unusual for a soldier of this time with a very sharp gaze with which he judged the political situations as well as the individuals who most influenced these situations. Added to this was the talent he had to compliment the different personalities and their quircks in a way that men with very different ways of thinking believed to recognize in him the man of their choice. That he was favored by Eugene of Savoye and Friedrich Wilhelm of Prussia at the same time is the best proof for the rightness of this claim.
It was especially the King whom he was able to manage maybe better than anyone before or after him ever could. Seckendorff knew how to hide his savvy under a mask of being a bluff soldier. Through relentless joining in the King's military exercises, the exhausting hunts and the meals as well as the then world famous "Tobacco Parliament", he had managed to make his company indespensible to the King. Thus, he won such an influence on the King of Prussia - bit by bit - , as was probably only paralleled in the one exerted by individual envoys of the Kings of Spain from the older line of the Habsburgs which had been sent to the court of Vienna.
Seckendorff's dazzling qualities were darkened by exaggarated avarice and austerity. However, this was not a flaw in the eyes of a King who as everyone knows loved, other than his soldiers, only money and the gain of territory. Moreover, he valued the accomplished general in Seckendorff and didn't like diplomats who were civilians.
Like Suhm, which is why Manteuffel - who had never, ever, served in any army - was such a notable exception to this rule, but then, he also could adopt a "bluff, honest straight-talker" persona for FW.
Re: Arneth-Eugene-Seckendorff
Me too, but evidently FW did it more than once.
Meant to say: abusers gonna abuse. POOR FRITZ.