You always say you're not going to have time to read, and it's always a lie. :DD
Arneth is writing this very obviously from a defensive position
Obvious, cahn, because Arneth was an Austrian. He was the head of the state archives, and he published reams of historical documentation, including a 10-volume bio of MT and a ton of correspondence, which is how we know MT did not, in fact, write to Madame Pompadour. That's the reason he came to mind when Selena said "collection of Seckendorff's envoy reports and letters to Eugene."
Incidentally, the Clement Affair and another minor issue led to Seckendorff's appointment as envoy in Berlin. Eugene had picked him explicitly to get FW out of his paranoid "Team Habsburg and Eugene wanted to kidnap/assassinate me and raise my kid!" mind frame and back to (at least mostly) supporting his Emperor.
Ahhh! I love when pieces fall together like this.
Also, my guy Eugene was an actual military hero who nonetheless didn't shout abuse at people and kick them, he was super generous instead of miserly, and he loved culture.
Sophie of Hanover is with you on that, Arneth! Alas, Campaign Make Eugene FW's Role Model failed.
except I don't mention any sums because I want to frustrate the salon.
ARGH and as archivist I know you must have known!
and why are we the ones getting stuck with the "slimy bribery guys" reputation, is what I want to know.
This is very true. When Whitworth, who does not come across as a particularly slimy diplomat--although again, my perspective is skewed by the filter his biographer presented--showed up in Russia, he wrote back home, "Look, you know what the problem is? My predecessors (the tobacco contractors, because actual political representation in Russia wasn't important to the Brits in this period) didn't suck up to Menshikov enough, and they didn't bribe the right ministers. Let me show you how a professional does it."
(Menshikov is Peter the Great's Grumbkow, only they probably had sex.)
never hear you asking "how dare FW say he'd rather lose his country and his people than allow MT to marry Don Carlos of Spain!" That never gets quoted by you, does it? Which is why I'm quoting it now.
I had actually run across this, but I forget where. Lavisse, maybe.
Reminder: the 1725 Treaty of Hanover, which formed an alliance between Prussia, France, Britain, and Hanover (later including Sweden and the Netherlands), was in response to the Spanish-Austrian alliance, which was when the MT/Don Carlos marriage idea was tossed around. (Charles VI was never going to do it, but he kept Philip and Isabella dangling with hints, and the rest of Europe was worried he was serious.)
1728: FW defected and signed a secret treaty with Charles. Which:
"honest" FW kept making contradictory treaties with both sides and kept wavering
Yep. All my sources on diplomacy from 1700-1731 show diplomats and heads of state constantly complaining about the unreliable and indecisive FW.
FW/G2 almost duel crisis of 1729:
Eugene: Thumbs up! I like it. That G2 is getting way to big for his breeches and Prince Elector of Hanover. Seckendorff, tell FW if there's war, I'm totally joining in .
Hahaha. This is the one where Suhm offered Saxon mediation, iirc?
that kid is evil (böse) and false (falsch) to the core, and if you're hoping for gratitude once FW kicks the bucket, forget it.
Well spotted!
Eugene: ...Keep trying to reconcile them anyway. I'm trying to be an optimist here
Hope springs eternal, as I always like to say.
Brits: We want it in writing that you're never, ever, going to marry MT to Fritz.
([personal profile] selenak: REALLY? Did I read this?)
It's your karma for doubting the MT series! ;) References to this marriage-that-didn't-happen are going to keep following you around!
Having read it, the later two reactions are from Eugene, not Seckendorff (seems Grumbkow sent a copy of the Punctae to Eugene)
Right, yes, I remember that now! (I remember being surprised that it had made its way all the way to Austria.) This got lost not in translation from German to me, but from my memory to my write-up. The problem with being at the decipherment stage of German is that I have to commit to memory whatever I read that I want to talk about, because I can't glance at the page while writing. One day!
BTw, did we know Seckendorff pleaded for Katte's life before? I don't think we did.
We did! Wilhelmine says so! It's actually the first sentence in her Katte episode:
Sekendorff also attempted to save Katt; but the king remained inflexible.
I remember it in particular because Thiebault's doctored memoirs also opened that way, and as you may recall, I did a line-by-line textual criticism comparison of the passages before realizing Thiebault's were doctored:
Seckendorf also wanted to save Katte, and he was joined by an assortment of people of the highest rank.
(At least *some* texts I can commit to memory!)
Seckendorff also testifies the famous hair dragging event:
Aww, man. I thought that was at Zeithain! The one where he got knocked to the ground and chewed out for hygiene and had to appear on parade in front of everyone in dishevelled hair and uniform. It was a different one? Poor Fritz. Note that he had tried to run with Peter (and not yet Katte) just the month before, and a month later, he'll still be trying to run away and that's why Peter gets sent to Wesel.
Arneth also has a point that FW's dislike of G2 would have ensured the British marriages would not have happened in any case, even without the Austrians campaigning against them.
Fritz/Amalia, maybe not, but you don't think there was a chance for Wilhelmine/FoW? FW seemed more inclined to allow that, as I recall, and it was the Brits insisting on double-or-nothing, and Hotham trying to blacken Grumbkow, that ruined it. (Both parties had everything to gain from a future queen on the throne of the other country, and little to gain from limiting the possibilities for alliances for their own heir.)
Though btw, why FW thought marrying his kids to the Brits would make them too Brit friendly and why Eugene & Seckendorff thought the same is beyond me, given that FW's own marriage was the primary example of how you can be married to the sister of the King of England and still hate his guts.
But FW was worried that his kids (esp. Fritz) were Brit-friendly because of their mother, and I could see him worrying that the same would happen with the grandkids. As I recall, he also said that Amalia was going to encourage Fritz in a love of luxury so she could have things more like she was used to (like SD).
Seckendorff in 1759, kidnapped and locked up in Magdeburg: I stand by my opinion on Fritz' temper.
Ahahaha. Well, I'm glad you at least weren't expecting to get the 1730s money back, which makes it true that you weren't a usurer where he was concerned. ;)
Re: Arneth-Eugene-Seckendorff
Arneth is writing this very obviously from a defensive position
Obvious,
Incidentally, the Clement Affair and another minor issue led to Seckendorff's appointment as envoy in Berlin. Eugene had picked him explicitly to get FW out of his paranoid "Team Habsburg and Eugene wanted to kidnap/assassinate me and raise my kid!" mind frame and back to (at least mostly) supporting his Emperor.
Ahhh! I love when pieces fall together like this.
Also, my guy Eugene was an actual military hero who nonetheless didn't shout abuse at people and kick them, he was super generous instead of miserly, and he loved culture.
Sophie of Hanover is with you on that, Arneth! Alas, Campaign Make Eugene FW's Role Model failed.
except I don't mention any sums because I want to frustrate the salon.
ARGH and as archivist I know you must have known!
and why are we the ones getting stuck with the "slimy bribery guys" reputation, is what I want to know.
This is very true. When Whitworth, who does not come across as a particularly slimy diplomat--although again, my perspective is skewed by the filter his biographer presented--showed up in Russia, he wrote back home, "Look, you know what the problem is? My predecessors (the tobacco contractors, because actual political representation in Russia wasn't important to the Brits in this period) didn't suck up to Menshikov enough, and they didn't bribe the right ministers. Let me show you how a professional does it."
(Menshikov is Peter the Great's Grumbkow, only they probably had sex.)
never hear you asking "how dare FW say he'd rather lose his country and his people than allow MT to marry Don Carlos of Spain!" That never gets quoted by you, does it? Which is why I'm quoting it now.
I had actually run across this, but I forget where. Lavisse, maybe.
Reminder: the 1725 Treaty of Hanover, which formed an alliance between Prussia, France, Britain, and Hanover (later including Sweden and the Netherlands), was in response to the Spanish-Austrian alliance, which was when the MT/Don Carlos marriage idea was tossed around. (Charles VI was never going to do it, but he kept Philip and Isabella dangling with hints, and the rest of Europe was worried he was serious.)
1728: FW defected and signed a secret treaty with Charles. Which:
"honest" FW kept making contradictory treaties with both sides and kept wavering
Yep. All my sources on diplomacy from 1700-1731 show diplomats and heads of state constantly complaining about the unreliable and indecisive FW.
FW/G2 almost duel crisis of 1729:
Eugene: Thumbs up! I like it. That G2 is getting way to big for his breeches and Prince Elector of Hanover. Seckendorff, tell FW if there's war, I'm totally joining in .
Hahaha. This is the one where Suhm offered Saxon mediation, iirc?
that kid is evil (böse) and false (falsch) to the core, and if you're hoping for gratitude once FW kicks the bucket, forget it.
Well spotted!
Eugene: ...Keep trying to reconcile them anyway. I'm trying to be an optimist here
Hope springs eternal, as I always like to say.
Brits: We want it in writing that you're never, ever, going to marry MT to Fritz.
([personal profile] selenak: REALLY? Did I read this?)
It's your karma for doubting the MT series! ;) References to this marriage-that-didn't-happen are going to keep following you around!
Having read it, the later two reactions are from Eugene, not Seckendorff (seems Grumbkow sent a copy of the Punctae to Eugene)
Right, yes, I remember that now! (I remember being surprised that it had made its way all the way to Austria.) This got lost not in translation from German to me, but from my memory to my write-up. The problem with being at the decipherment stage of German is that I have to commit to memory whatever I read that I want to talk about, because I can't glance at the page while writing. One day!
BTw, did we know Seckendorff pleaded for Katte's life before? I don't think we did.
We did! Wilhelmine says so! It's actually the first sentence in her Katte episode:
Sekendorff also attempted to save Katt; but the king remained inflexible.
I remember it in particular because Thiebault's doctored memoirs also opened that way, and as you may recall, I did a line-by-line textual criticism comparison of the passages before realizing Thiebault's were doctored:
Seckendorf also wanted to save Katte, and he was joined by an assortment of people of the highest rank.
(At least *some* texts I can commit to memory!)
Seckendorff also testifies the famous hair dragging event:
Aww, man. I thought that was at Zeithain! The one where he got knocked to the ground and chewed out for hygiene and had to appear on parade in front of everyone in dishevelled hair and uniform. It was a different one? Poor Fritz. Note that he had tried to run with Peter (and not yet Katte) just the month before, and a month later, he'll still be trying to run away and that's why Peter gets sent to Wesel.
Arneth also has a point that FW's dislike of G2 would have ensured the British marriages would not have happened in any case, even without the Austrians campaigning against them.
Fritz/Amalia, maybe not, but you don't think there was a chance for Wilhelmine/FoW? FW seemed more inclined to allow that, as I recall, and it was the Brits insisting on double-or-nothing, and Hotham trying to blacken Grumbkow, that ruined it. (Both parties had everything to gain from a future queen on the throne of the other country, and little to gain from limiting the possibilities for alliances for their own heir.)
Though btw, why FW thought marrying his kids to the Brits would make them too Brit friendly and why Eugene & Seckendorff thought the same is beyond me, given that FW's own marriage was the primary example of how you can be married to the sister of the King of England and still hate his guts.
But FW was worried that his kids (esp. Fritz) were Brit-friendly because of their mother, and I could see him worrying that the same would happen with the grandkids. As I recall, he also said that Amalia was going to encourage Fritz in a love of luxury so she could have things more like she was used to (like SD).
Seckendorff in 1759, kidnapped and locked up in Magdeburg: I stand by my opinion on Fritz' temper.
Ahahaha. Well, I'm glad you at least weren't expecting to get the 1730s money back, which makes it true that you weren't a usurer where he was concerned. ;)