I continue to be amazed and awed at the free tuition offered at this university, I mean in this fandom. :D
which means the occasional blip like poor Gundling still showing up as the court fool made head of the academy.
So many of my modern sources do that if not for you, I wouldn't know any better!
Sir not appearing in either volume at all (seriously, no single mention, not even in the footnotes): Suhm. Seriously, Bronisch not only apparantly had zero interest in the other Saxon envoy but doesn't think he's a factor in any way in his subject.
Suhm, certainly not relevant to Saxon enovys trying to win Fritz over to Wolff. I mean, what. Especially since you found out later that he's aware of Fritz. Sigh.
Fritz even told Wilhelmine he was studying philosophy with La Chetardie and Suhm in Berlin, in March 1736, and that it was normally Suhm and occasionally Chetardie!
Oh well.
Ah, I see. That's why he doesn't mention Suhm, he's a shipper, too. :P
Yes, yes, this makes perfect sense. It's like the slash fics that go, "Wife/girlfriend? What wife/girlfriend?" Only in this case, it's "Other erastes? What other erastes?" :PPP
he remained a very handsome figure of a man into his old age, too. (So Formey writes not just immediately after Manteuffel died but also recalling him many years later.) In short, which isn't as Bronish puts it, when Crown Prince Fritz is on the prowl for sugar daddies in the 1730s, Manteuffel really was a great candidate.
Uh huh. Anyway, this is really interesting, because when we first encountered Fritz showing all possible tendernesses to him circa 1736, Selena wondered if that meant sex. And my first response was, "Not to be ageist, but he is 60, and it is the 18th century, so he might not have had all that much sex appeal..." but clearly Formey is here to tell me otherwise!
Bronisch scoffs at Nicolai's anecdote as an explanation as to why Fritz called his own philosophical summer retreat the same name, pointing out that Manteuffel in a letter to Fritz even refers to his visitors as "his knights of Sanssouci" and that freaking FW visited for two days there in 1731, so there's no way Fritz was unaware of the precedent. To which I say, that doesn't mean he didn't mean the grave pun as well.
Bronisch, maybe he heard the name and it SPOKE TO HIM, because he had all these psychological issues, omg.
Guess what happened to the originals? WWII.
ARGH. This keeps happening to us!
Explanation for nickname: it's complicated.
I actually knew this, thanks to MacDonogh! But he doesn't give our sources for it, so that's a nice addition.
(Short version: it's a huge crowd, Augustus is about to fell a bad sentence which could have resulted with him gaining a tyrant's reputation, Maecenas raises a writing tablet with the words "surge, carnifex!", Augustus sees it and desists) (The who is who casting is obvious without Manteuffel spelling it out.)
A classical anecdote I didn't know, thank you! And yes, obvious parallelism is obvious.
It's like the slash fics that go, "Wife/girlfriend? What wife/girlfriend?" Only in this case, it's "Other erastes? What other erastes?" :PPP
That's the only explanation that makes sense for the lack of Suhm when the bibliography proves he has, in fact, read the letters. I should perhaps add here that while Bronisch quotes the passage in Seckendorff Jr.'s journal about Manteuffel getting the Socrates/Alcibiades golden knob, he doesn't quote other passages like Manteuffel telling S that Fritz is like Hadrian, or the "can't embrace her with passion" bit about EC; in fairness, that's outside his main subject (whereas the Socrates/Alicibiades gift is relevant because Voltaire later gets the same thing). Bronisch also when starting his cunningly repacked readers digest book with Fritz writing his first letter to Voltaire says "thus began one of the oddest, if not the oddest, flirtation in political-literary history" (he does use the word "Flirt" in German) re the Fritz/Voltaire relationship, so while he doesn't dive into Fritz & homoeroticism, he's not in denial or unaware about it.
Anyway, this is really interesting, because when we first encountered Fritz showing all possible tendernesses to him circa 1736, Selena wondered if that meant sex. And my first response was, "Not to be ageist, but he is 60, and it is the 18th century, so he might not have had all that much sex appeal..." but clearly Formey is here to tell me otherwise!
And Bronisch makes sure to work that into both books. "Jean Henri Samuel Formey, der den Diplomaten zu Beginn der 1730er Jahre kennenlernte, beschrieb ihn als einen hochgewachsenen, noch im Alter stattlichen, ja "schönen" Mann mit einem ausgeprägten Talent zur geistvoll-galanten Konversation."
That's a "A tall, still handsome in his old age, even "beautiful" man with a distinct talent for witty and galant conversation", if your German fails you. I think Wilhelmine in that passage about Manteuffel (when he was the Saxon envoy in the early 1720s) becoming involved in a G & S scheme with SD's lady-in-waiting also describes him as rather dashing. (For what it's worth, he was married, but not very happily; his wife remained in the Pomeranian countryside and didn't follow him to Berlin on eithe occasion - i.e. the 20s or the 30s. ETA: since they had children nonetheless, Manteuffel actuallly thus knows whereof he speaks when telling Fritz love isn't necessary to reproduce./ETA)
I didn't know the "surge, carnifex!" anecdote, either, but then I've never read Cassius Dio. (Just came across quotes of his in other contexts.)
"A tall, still handsome in his old age, even "beautiful" man with a distinct talent for witty and galant conversation"
So, like, because I'm in this for the trashy fandom I just have to say that I am charmed that it's not just the princes who are getting the "Hot or not?" treatment! :)
Poniatowski also wrote a "hot or not?" about himself at Catherine's request, but I know what you mean. :)
BTW, the fact that Manteuffel was tall might explain why he got along far better than Suhm (who was small) with FW despite being into the arts, big time....
So he did, you are right,and they all, envoys and Prussian nobles alike, agree on "hot"!
For that matter, adding the Nicolai and Büsching Glasow takes to my big Glasow post at rheinsberg has reminded me that everyone agrees that Glasow was a looker, too, with Kalckreuth and Lehndorff in particular - no matter how much they disagree on his character - emphasizing his beauty. Whereas Nicolai makes it sound as if Fritz just had a fatherly fondness for Glasow and wishing to educate him etc. (Look, Nicolai, I can buy this fatherly stuff for the actual Karlchen, Carel. But Glasow? No way.)
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Re: His name is Diable. Le Diable: Good Times
which means the occasional blip like poor Gundling still showing up as the court fool made head of the academy.
So many of my modern sources do that if not for you, I wouldn't know any better!
Sir not appearing in either volume at all (seriously, no single mention, not even in the footnotes): Suhm. Seriously, Bronisch not only apparantly had zero interest in the other Saxon envoy but doesn't think he's a factor in any way in his subject.
Suhm, certainly not relevant to Saxon enovys trying to win Fritz over to Wolff. I mean, what. Especially since you found out later that he's aware of Fritz. Sigh.
Fritz even told Wilhelmine he was studying philosophy with La Chetardie and Suhm in Berlin, in March 1736, and that it was normally Suhm and occasionally Chetardie!
Oh well.
Ah, I see. That's why he doesn't mention Suhm, he's a shipper, too. :P
Yes, yes, this makes perfect sense. It's like the slash fics that go, "Wife/girlfriend? What wife/girlfriend?" Only in this case, it's "Other erastes? What other erastes?" :PPP
he remained a very handsome figure of a man into his old age, too. (So Formey writes not just immediately after Manteuffel died but also recalling him many years later.) In short, which isn't as Bronish puts it, when Crown Prince Fritz is on the prowl for sugar daddies in the 1730s, Manteuffel really was a great candidate.
Uh huh. Anyway, this is really interesting, because when we first encountered Fritz showing all possible tendernesses to him circa 1736, Selena wondered if that meant sex. And my first response was, "Not to be ageist, but he is 60, and it is the 18th century, so he might not have had all that much sex appeal..." but clearly Formey is here to tell me otherwise!
Bronisch scoffs at Nicolai's anecdote as an explanation as to why Fritz called his own philosophical summer retreat the same name, pointing out that Manteuffel in a letter to Fritz even refers to his visitors as "his knights of Sanssouci" and that freaking FW visited for two days there in 1731, so there's no way Fritz was unaware of the precedent. To which I say, that doesn't mean he didn't mean the grave pun as well.
Bronisch, maybe he heard the name and it SPOKE TO HIM, because he had all these psychological issues, omg.
Guess what happened to the originals? WWII.
ARGH. This keeps happening to us!
Explanation for nickname: it's complicated.
I actually knew this, thanks to MacDonogh! But he doesn't give our sources for it, so that's a nice addition.
(Short version: it's a huge crowd, Augustus is about to fell a bad sentence which could have resulted with him gaining a tyrant's reputation, Maecenas raises a writing tablet with the words "surge, carnifex!", Augustus sees it and desists) (The who is who casting is obvious without Manteuffel spelling it out.)
A classical anecdote I didn't know, thank you! And yes, obvious parallelism is obvious.
Re: His name is Diable. Le Diable: Good Times
That's the only explanation that makes sense for the lack of Suhm when the bibliography proves he has, in fact, read the letters. I should perhaps add here that while Bronisch quotes the passage in Seckendorff Jr.'s journal about Manteuffel getting the Socrates/Alcibiades golden knob, he doesn't quote other passages like Manteuffel telling S that Fritz is like Hadrian, or the "can't embrace her with passion" bit about EC; in fairness, that's outside his main subject (whereas the Socrates/Alicibiades gift is relevant because Voltaire later gets the same thing). Bronisch also when starting his cunningly repacked readers digest book with Fritz writing his first letter to Voltaire says "thus began one of the oddest, if not the oddest, flirtation in political-literary history" (he does use the word "Flirt" in German) re the Fritz/Voltaire relationship, so while he doesn't dive into Fritz & homoeroticism, he's not in denial or unaware about it.
Anyway, this is really interesting, because when we first encountered Fritz showing all possible tendernesses to him circa 1736, Selena wondered if that meant sex. And my first response was, "Not to be ageist, but he is 60, and it is the 18th century, so he might not have had all that much sex appeal..." but clearly Formey is here to tell me otherwise!
And Bronisch makes sure to work that into both books. "Jean Henri Samuel Formey, der den Diplomaten zu Beginn der 1730er Jahre kennenlernte, beschrieb ihn als einen hochgewachsenen, noch im Alter stattlichen, ja "schönen" Mann mit einem ausgeprägten Talent zur geistvoll-galanten Konversation."
That's a "A tall, still handsome in his old age, even "beautiful" man with a distinct talent for witty and galant conversation", if your German fails you. I think Wilhelmine in that passage about Manteuffel (when he was the Saxon envoy in the early 1720s) becoming involved in a G & S scheme with SD's lady-in-waiting also describes him as rather dashing. (For what it's worth, he was married, but not very happily; his wife remained in the Pomeranian countryside and didn't follow him to Berlin on eithe occasion - i.e. the 20s or the 30s. ETA: since they had children nonetheless, Manteuffel actuallly thus knows whereof he speaks when telling Fritz love isn't necessary to reproduce./ETA)
I didn't know the "surge, carnifex!" anecdote, either, but then I've never read Cassius Dio. (Just came across quotes of his in other contexts.)
Re: His name is Diable. Le Diable: Good Times
So, like, because I'm in this for the trashy fandom I just have to say that I am charmed that it's not just the princes who are getting the "Hot or not?" treatment! :)
Re: His name is Diable. Le Diable: Good Times
BTW, the fact that Manteuffel was tall might explain why he got along far better than Suhm (who was small) with FW despite being into the arts, big time....
Re: His name is Diable. Le Diable: Good Times
Fredersdorf also got "hot or not" reports, I wish to point out. ;)
Re: His name is Diable. Le Diable: Good Times
For that matter, adding the Nicolai and Büsching Glasow takes to my big Glasow post at
Re: His name is Diable. Le Diable: Good Times
they all, envoys and Prussian nobles alike, agree on "hot"!
Envoys, Prussian nobles, famous French authors, and sons of merchants from Hamburg!
Re: His name is Diable. Le Diable: Good Times
Argh, what I meant to type here was "Especially since you found out later that he's [Bronisch is] aware of Suhm."