For instead of looking for those who would tell him and his entourage the truth in a jest at the right time, when no one else would
So I've always seen this as the stereotypical description of what a court fool is supposed to do (and the Roman generals during their triumphs were supposed to have something similar), but do you know to what extent that reflected reality? I have no idea what the actual historical evidence for fools looks like.
Because he started to complain about it, it was said he wasn't just a fool, he was a Poltron. (?)
cahn beat me to the explanation. Although, hilariously, I apparently read so much historical stuff that I was going to say, "In modern English, we have this word 'poltroon'." :P Although upon reflection, it's true that it's archaic enough that I would never use the word in speech, and would expect to be laughed out of the room if I did. (I already got laughed at once for using 'ruffian'!)
confirms FW liked oboists from the military. (Fredersdorf, watch out!)
Fredersdorf dodged a bullet there!
mostly he didn't think they existed, but he wasn't sure about the White Lady ( the appearance of whom supposedly spelled Hohenzollern doom)
Huuh. So Fritz and Wilhelmine come by their skepticism honestly! Remember the episode where Wilhelmine (whose memoirs are full of not believing in the supernatural) reports the alleged appearance of the White Lady in Bayreuth in a letter to Fritz, and Fritz responds with the story of the rats in Küstrin. I've always been intrigued by the concluding line, "As you see, ghosts are mainly imagination." Which implies that like FW, he entertained the possibility of some kind of ghosts! (I bet he wasn't expecting the posthumous MT kind, though. ;) )
Mom and Grandmom and Dad all took him along on journeys to the Netherlands when he grew up, and he was very positively impressed, not least by the hygiene.
Reminder for cahn that hygiene in the Netherlands was striking for all travelers, especially the "Hygiene? What's that?" French, who were more into conspicuous consumption.
look, says Mr. Morgenstern, Peter may get praise now, but in his day he was hated and called a tyrant by a great many of his subjects, too. Also he gave them more cause than FW. I'm sure FW's reputation will go the way of Peter's and rise through subsequent generations, though!
Ahahaha, now that you've read us Leineweber, I have to assume this is another instance of praeteritio: the rhetorical device of calling attention to something negative by seeming to deny it.
Re: He's just a soul whose intentions were good: Morgenstern on FW. - B
So I've always seen this as the stereotypical description of what a court fool is supposed to do (and the Roman generals during their triumphs were supposed to have something similar), but do you know to what extent that reflected reality? I have no idea what the actual historical evidence for fools looks like.
With the caveat that I have no in depth knowledge on this: as far as I do know, there were two separate sets of fools - "natural" fools and "artificial" fools. "Natural" fools were fools that were either mentally or physically handicapped, and were kept as grotesqueries; they also usually came with minders, and at most did acrobatic tricks. Artificial fools were the ones supposed to be witty and truth-as-jest telling, a la the Fool in King Lear. Of historical examples who sound as if they actually did that:
Kunz von der Rosen, court fool of the Emperor Maximilian I. (his most famous jest in that spirit is when he's asked about his opinion on a new peace treaty that's supposed to last a century, and he asks back how old the questioner thinks he is; hearing the reply, Kunz von der Rosen says "wrong, for I must be at least over 200 years old, for in my life time, two such peace treaties were made); Joseph Fröhlich, who was August the Strong's court jester (and got possibly depicted more often by the artists of his time in Saxony than the King himself was; he survived August and was still around, if in retirement, when the Seven Years War started, at which pointed he and his family fled to Poland); Will Somers, Henry VIII's fool; and Archibald Armstrong, fool to James VI and I.
The last British king to have a court fool, btw, was Charles I, since Charles II. did not revive the office after the Restoration. As you can see, continental princes kept up the office for longer. There were also female fools - Mary Queen of Scots and Mary Tudor both had them, for example, and the entry for Nichola, Mary Stuart's fool, containes a great diss on Mary biograpaher John Guy. After stating that absolutely nothing is known about what kind of fool Nichola was, about her jests (or lack of same) or acrobatics, just about her extensive wardrobe, the entry says "Historian John Guy imagines her bantering with Mary, and the Queen indulging her "wicked sense of humor". Note the "imagines". Mary Tudor's fool, Jane Foole, seems to have done acrobatics, and might have worked for Anne Boleyn before Mary got her after Anne's death, but again, we don't know what kind of jokes she made, if any.
Leonora Dori Galigai was described as originally the court fool to Maria de' Medici in a historical novel I've read, but in actually she was first Maria's milk sister (i.e. her mother was Maria's wetnurse) and then her lady-in-waiting when Maria became the second wife of Henri IV. Leonora and her husband, Concini, who was most likely Maria's lover dominated her, and after Concini was toppled and killed at the end of Maria's regency, Leonora ended up being accused of having bewitched the Queen and being burned at the state for it. Her reply to this charge (having used spells to bewitch the Queen), which the English wiki entry doesn't quote but the German does, was: „Mon charme fut celui des âmes fortes sur les esprits faibles“, which even historians who suspect her of having been involved with the murder of Henri IV. and of having been a bad influence in general credit with having been one of the all time great truth-to-power tellings, so it's a shame I can't list her as a court fool as well.
Fredersdorf dodged a bullet there!
Evidently. Though this might have been the straw that broke the camel's back and have driven Fritz to patricide - first a boyfriend beheaded, then a boyfriend stolen?
Edited 2021-03-14 06:51 (UTC)
Re: He's just a soul whose intentions were good: Morgenstern on FW. - B
Awesome, thank you! I figured you would have all sorts of interesting things to teach us!
„Mon charme fut celui des âmes fortes sur les esprits faibles“
Huh! Of all places, I recognize this line from The Mists of Avalon, where MZB apparently quietly borrowed it:
Later, she knew, the woman would tell a tale of enchantments and of fear, but in truth it was no more than this: the simple domination of a powerful will over one which had been given up, deliberately, to submission.
Evidently. Though this might have been the straw that broke the camel's back and have driven Fritz to patricide - first a boyfriend beheaded, then a boyfriend stolen?
AU where Fritz is determined to get Fredersdorf back, one way or another!
Re: He's just a soul whose intentions were good: Morgenstern on FW. - B
That line is way too similar to be a coincidence, so I bet MZB came across the original version somehow. Which is interesting, because unlike Catherine de' Medici, Maria de'Medici is far more obscure in history pop culture. (To us. Voltaire actually worked the burning of Leonora and her exit line in one of his historical works, and so 18th century readers like Fritz would have known who she was.)
AU where Fritz is determined to get Fredersdorf back, one way or another!
He. Since I don't see FW parting with one of his chosen Potsdam Giants unless the guy in question a) deserts, or b) storms in daggers in hand crying "Long live the Pope, G2 and the Crown Prince!", it would have to be fratricide....
Re: He's just a soul whose intentions were good: Morgenstern on FW. - B
That line is way too similar to be a coincidence, so I bet MZB came across the original version somehow.
Yep, that's what I'm thinking. (MoA is like GWTW, in that I'm constantly opening it and reading a few random pages when I'm in the mood for some effortless distraction, so I catch things very quickly.)
And yes, it is interesting, because I certainly was not familiar with that line (admittedly not my period). I think I figured out why: the Enlightenment has always spoken to me far more than the non-stop religious wars. To the extent that my interest in the 17th century has increased at all in recent months, it's solely because it provides explanatory context for the 18th century (hence the Thirty Years War reading I was doing and hope to resume at some point).
He. Since I don't see FW parting with one of his chosen Potsdam Giants unless the guy in question a) deserts, or b) storms in daggers in hand crying "Long live the Pope, G2 and the Crown Prince!", it would have to be fratricide....
And since both of those lead to death (barring a toddler AW intervention), patricide it is! Also, haha at "Long live the Pope, G2 and the Crown Prince!", I laughed. :)
I want this AU!
Re: He's just a soul whose intentions were good: Morgenstern on FW. - B
LOL! I feel like "ruffian" is something you could see in, IDK, Westerns or something -- like, circa early 20th C -- whereas I don't think I have ever seen "poltroon" used in any fiction that was set more recently than... maybe possibly the 1800's, but in my head it's way more associated with Middle Ages - ish historical fiction.
Ahahaha, now that you've read us Leineweber, I have to assume this is another instance of praeteritio: the rhetorical device of calling attention to something negative by seeming to deny it.
Ah! I knew the device of course, but not the name for it.
Re: He's just a soul whose intentions were good: Morgenstern on FW. - B
whereas I don't think I have ever seen "poltroon" used in any fiction that was set more recently than... maybe possibly the 1800's, but in my head it's way more associated with Middle Ages - ish historical fiction.
I guess Narnia is Middle Ages, but learning the word so young did nothing for my sense that this wasn't modern English. :P
I knew the device of course, but not the name for it.
Wikipedia informs me there are like 5 names for it, but praeteritio is the one I learned.
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Re: He's just a soul whose intentions were good: Morgenstern on FW. - B
So I've always seen this as the stereotypical description of what a court fool is supposed to do (and the Roman generals during their triumphs were supposed to have something similar), but do you know to what extent that reflected reality? I have no idea what the actual historical evidence for fools looks like.
Because he started to complain about it, it was said he wasn't just a fool, he was a Poltron. (?)
confirms FW liked oboists from the military. (Fredersdorf, watch out!)
Fredersdorf dodged a bullet there!
mostly he didn't think they existed, but he wasn't sure about the White Lady ( the appearance of whom supposedly spelled Hohenzollern doom)
Huuh. So Fritz and Wilhelmine come by their skepticism honestly! Remember the episode where Wilhelmine (whose memoirs are full of not believing in the supernatural) reports the alleged appearance of the White Lady in Bayreuth in a letter to Fritz, and Fritz responds with the story of the rats in Küstrin. I've always been intrigued by the concluding line, "As you see, ghosts are mainly imagination." Which implies that like FW, he entertained the possibility of some kind of ghosts! (I bet he wasn't expecting the posthumous MT kind, though. ;) )
Mom and Grandmom and Dad all took him along on journeys to the Netherlands when he grew up, and he was very positively impressed, not least by the hygiene.
Reminder for
look, says Mr. Morgenstern, Peter may get praise now, but in his day he was hated and called a tyrant by a great many of his subjects, too. Also he gave them more cause than FW. I'm sure FW's reputation will go the way of Peter's and rise through subsequent generations, though!
Ahahaha, now that you've read us Leineweber, I have to assume this is another instance of praeteritio: the rhetorical device of calling attention to something negative by seeming to deny it.
Re: He's just a soul whose intentions were good: Morgenstern on FW. - B
With the caveat that I have no in depth knowledge on this: as far as I do know, there were two separate sets of fools - "natural" fools and "artificial" fools. "Natural" fools were fools that were either mentally or physically handicapped, and were kept as grotesqueries; they also usually came with minders, and at most did acrobatic tricks. Artificial fools were the ones supposed to be witty and truth-as-jest telling, a la the Fool in King Lear. Of historical examples who sound as if they actually did that:
Kunz von der Rosen, court fool of the Emperor Maximilian I. (his most famous jest in that spirit is when he's asked about his opinion on a new peace treaty that's supposed to last a century, and he asks back how old the questioner thinks he is; hearing the reply, Kunz von der Rosen says "wrong, for I must be at least over 200 years old, for in my life time, two such peace treaties were made); Joseph Fröhlich, who was August the Strong's court jester (and got possibly depicted more often by the artists of his time in Saxony than the King himself was; he survived August and was still around, if in retirement, when the Seven Years War started, at which pointed he and his family fled to Poland); Will Somers, Henry VIII's fool; and Archibald Armstrong, fool to James VI and I.
The last British king to have a court fool, btw, was Charles I, since Charles II. did not revive the office after the Restoration. As you can see, continental princes kept up the office for longer. There were also female fools - Mary Queen of Scots and Mary Tudor both had them, for example, and the entry for Nichola, Mary Stuart's fool, containes a great diss on Mary biograpaher John Guy. After stating that absolutely nothing is known about what kind of fool Nichola was, about her jests (or lack of same) or acrobatics, just about her extensive wardrobe, the entry says "Historian John Guy imagines her bantering with Mary, and the Queen indulging her "wicked sense of humor". Note the "imagines". Mary Tudor's fool, Jane Foole, seems to have done acrobatics, and might have worked for Anne Boleyn before Mary got her after Anne's death, but again, we don't know what kind of jokes she made, if any.
Leonora Dori Galigai was described as originally the court fool to Maria de' Medici in a historical novel I've read, but in actually she was first Maria's milk sister (i.e. her mother was Maria's wetnurse) and then her lady-in-waiting when Maria became the second wife of Henri IV. Leonora and her husband, Concini, who was most likely Maria's lover dominated her, and after Concini was toppled and killed at the end of Maria's regency, Leonora ended up being accused of having bewitched the Queen and being burned at the state for it. Her reply to this charge (having used spells to bewitch the Queen), which the English wiki entry doesn't quote but the German does, was: „Mon charme fut celui des âmes fortes sur les esprits faibles“, which even historians who suspect her of having been involved with the murder of Henri IV. and of having been a bad influence in general credit with having been one of the all time great truth-to-power tellings, so it's a shame I can't list her as a court fool as well.
Fredersdorf dodged a bullet there!
Evidently. Though this might have been the straw that broke the camel's back and have driven Fritz to patricide - first a boyfriend beheaded, then a boyfriend stolen?
Re: He's just a soul whose intentions were good: Morgenstern on FW. - B
„Mon charme fut celui des âmes fortes sur les esprits faibles“
Huh! Of all places, I recognize this line from The Mists of Avalon, where MZB apparently quietly borrowed it:
Later, she knew, the woman would tell a tale of enchantments and of fear, but in truth it was no more than this: the simple domination of a powerful will over one which had been given up, deliberately, to submission.
Evidently. Though this might have been the straw that broke the camel's back and have driven Fritz to patricide - first a boyfriend beheaded, then a boyfriend stolen?
AU where Fritz is determined to get Fredersdorf back, one way or another!
Re: He's just a soul whose intentions were good: Morgenstern on FW. - B
AU where Fritz is determined to get Fredersdorf back, one way or another!
He. Since I don't see FW parting with one of his chosen Potsdam Giants unless the guy in question a) deserts, or b) storms in daggers in hand crying "Long live the Pope, G2 and the Crown Prince!", it would have to be fratricide....
Re: He's just a soul whose intentions were good: Morgenstern on FW. - B
Yep, that's what I'm thinking. (MoA is like GWTW, in that I'm constantly opening it and reading a few random pages when I'm in the mood for some effortless distraction, so I catch things very quickly.)
And yes, it is interesting, because I certainly was not familiar with that line (admittedly not my period). I think I figured out why: the Enlightenment has always spoken to me far more than the non-stop religious wars. To the extent that my interest in the 17th century has increased at all in recent months, it's solely because it provides explanatory context for the 18th century (hence the Thirty Years War reading I was doing and hope to resume at some point).
He. Since I don't see FW parting with one of his chosen Potsdam Giants unless the guy in question a) deserts, or b) storms in daggers in hand crying "Long live the Pope, G2 and the Crown Prince!", it would have to be fratricide....
And since both of those lead to death (barring a toddler AW intervention), patricide it is! Also, haha at "Long live the Pope, G2 and the Crown Prince!", I laughed. :)
I want this AU!
Re: He's just a soul whose intentions were good: Morgenstern on FW. - B
Re: He's just a soul whose intentions were good: Morgenstern on FW. - B
Ahahaha, now that you've read us Leineweber, I have to assume this is another instance of praeteritio: the rhetorical device of calling attention to something negative by seeming to deny it.
Ah! I knew the device of course, but not the name for it.
Re: He's just a soul whose intentions were good: Morgenstern on FW. - B
I guess Narnia is Middle Ages, but learning the word so young did nothing for my sense that this wasn't modern English. :P
I knew the device of course, but not the name for it.
Wikipedia informs me there are like 5 names for it, but praeteritio is the one I learned.