...Did Suhm decide to go to St. Petersburg in part because it was a chance to play sugar daddy? Or was that just how he tried to reconcile Fritz to it?
Doesn't Fritz mention in a letter to Wilhelmine a bit earlier than this that Suhm is short of cash? So while the playing sugar daddy factor might have played a role, I think it might simply have been that he needed the money. He had his own children to finance, too.
But it's interesting because Suhm always refers to "I" and "my" in terms of the house where he lives in St. Petersburg, the house almost burning down, etc. So if he's got his family with him, then he is consciously avoiding talking about them with Fritz (who, in contrast, is more than happy to bitch about his brother showing up, for example), unless he needs them taken care of.
Speculation: maybe he's aware that when Fritz loves you, your priorities should be Fritz, i.e. Fritz does not want to be reminded more than absolutely necessary there are these other kids around. I know you think of Suhm as playing the erastes role at this point, but there might be some leftover father figure at work as well. I don't see as contradicting Suhm later entrusting the kids to Fritz in the event of his death - that's different, Fritz would not consider himself in competition with the kids for Suhm after Suhm is dead.
One, how do I put this...wow, this family. I know your father's put you in a shitty situation, Fritz, but way to pass it down the chain.
I wonder if AW ever figured out what was going on. Did Fritz forge his signature, or did he get trusting younger bro to sign a piece of paper without letting on what he was really signing up for?
Honestly? I'm betting on the later. Given that FW in 1730 made it law you're not allowed to lend money to minors who are royal princes, and was really vocal about this. Now teenage AW might have been happy to do slightly Dad forbidden things for Cool Older Bro, but this was a major Dad forbidden thing.
Two, "my brother," unmarked, is AW. This makes me think that in 1736, it's AW who shows up at Ruppin and is more interested in eating than reading. I'm still happy to read a babysitting fic where it's Heinrich followed by Ferdinand, mind you!
On the one hand: it makes the most sense that it is AW, because not only is Fritz very deliberately cultivating him in the 1730s, but he's also, as a teenager, old enough to travel to Ruppin with just his governor. Also, it might be that whichever of your biographies - Blanning? MacDonough? - said it was Heinrich confused Heinrich with the Schwedt cousin of the same first name again, who definitely did visit Fritz both in Ruppin and at Rheinsberg (and according to Zimmermann inflicted a quack doctor for STD on him). I've seen a tumblr post making the same mistake when quoting Crown Prince Fritz on "Prince Heinrich" being a wild party animal, where they conclude FW must have been totally permissive with Heinrich, without ever bothering to check the dates and the age.
On the other hand: Flimsy, but we still don't have a canonical explanation as to why Fritz tells Manteuffel that while AW might be badly educated yet good hearted, Heinrich and Ferdinand are just evil brats, with Ferdinand being the worst kid FW ever spawned. Given he's in Ruppin most of the time when he says this, he hardly had a chance to know either of them, so my first explanation was "they kicked him under the table during the winter holidays", and the second, as you know, was Rokoko babysitting.
And then there's the first preserved Fritz to Heinrich letter at Trier, which is dated February 3rd 1737, and where he thanks Heinrich for gifting him with cheeses (to his birthday on January 24th, presumably): My dearest brother, I am infinitely obliged to you for your memories, and for the cheeses you are kind enough to send me. I would like to have something that could be pleasant to you, in order to show you, my dear brother, that the friendship that I have for you does not yield anything to that which you have for me. You may be sure, my dearest brother.
I'm sure he's sure, Fritz. Also why cheese, if Heinrich didn't raid the larder the previous year?
Not sure about the Cardinal; any guesses? (I doubt he's saying he's actually Seckendorff's son, which is how it usually worked with popes and their "nephews" who were made cardinals, which is how we got the word "nepotism". But that is the first thing that comes to mind for me when you juxtapose "cardinal" and "nephew".)
It does, though there were also some actual nephews along with the bastard sons who were also made Cardinals. I think he's just implying Other Seckendorff solely got the job due to his uncle, and "Cardinal" just goes with that. If he does want to make a religious allusion, Seckendorff ISN'T Catholic - see his biographer telling an anecdote on his refusal to convert - and is religious enough so his poor fool will end up locked in prison for a love affair.
Also, go you for spotting it immediatley, as opposed to 1787 editor who of course doesn't know there's a secret diary.
that the name of Seckendorf, will never more be heard spoken of
Except when leading the Wittelsbach Emperor's war effort after MT has set him free, and then much later when I kidnap him to exchange him with Moritz von Anhalt-Dessau.
Doesn't Fritz mention in a letter to Wilhelmine a bit earlier than this that Suhm is short of cash? So while the playing sugar daddy factor might have played a role, I think it might simply have been that he needed the money. He had his own children to finance, too.
Oh, that's definitely why he was looking for a job! Fritz and Suhm have this long exchange extending over several letters in 1736 about how Suhm needs a job and how Fritz wishes he could provide it, and he grumps about how the Dresden court obviously doesn't appreciate Suhm, and says he pities them for their bad taste more than he pities Suhm the obviously awesome. That's why I wrote "in part".
But while I'm sure Suhm exaggerated "I really don't want to go so far away!" to Fritz, the fact that he had been so sick before he left, the fact that he told Fritz he had proactively had himself declared an invalid before arriving at court, the fact that he was so sick during his three years there, and the fact that the journey back killed him, I have to think there was at least a kernel of truth to the fact that he would have preferred, say, the climate of Turin. ;)
Since he complained about the difficulty of finding a suitable position in Dresden, and since envoy positions don't open up every day, and turning it down even for health reasons might have looked bad, maybe he would have jumped on it regardless. So maybe Fritz didn't factor into the decision at all, and that was purely a PR move (I see a lot of PR moves in Suhm's letters to Fritz). But having discovered that he already had reason to believe, even before he left, that he could start pumping the court for money for Fritz, I wonder if that played a role in his decision. I seem to recall Fritz later starts giving him a cut from the proceeds in the forms of rings and whatnot, and certainly it would be a good investment in the future, beyond short-term altruism. (Rarely only one reason for an action, as I like to say.)
Speculation: maybe he's aware that when Fritz loves you, your priorities should be Fritz, i.e. Fritz does not want to be reminded more than absolutely necessary there are these other kids around.
Oh, that's exactly what I assumed it had to be. I can't think of any other reason. I'm just impressed by how thoroughgoing Suhm's adherence to this principle is. When Wilhelmine's residence burns down, even though Fritz is not a fan of her bringing up her new family with him, she manages to work in how depressed her husband is and how much he needs a replacement flute and such. Suhm might as well be living alone when his residence almost burns down twice, to the point where I'm still half-questioning whose kids were crossing that river/those rivers.
I know you think of Suhm as playing the erastes role at this point
Oh, but that's my fannish side, not my scholarly side! My scholarly side thinks a father figure role is quite likely. (Though I honestly think that the lines got blurred a bit around this time in his life. Describing himself as a "widow and orphan in one" when Keyserlingk and Jordan died may just have been because those were the terms for which he had a vocabulary for bereavement, but it may also have been a case that Fritz was getting a variety of emotional needs met by people about a generation older than him, and that included romantic friendship.)
So yeah, Fritz might well have seen the kids as emotional competition, and Suhm was sensitive enough to pick up on that and willing to go along with it. Unlike the Émilie-Voltaire-Fritz triangle that emerged at the same time! (Note that unlike Émilie, Fritz was evidently happy to have Suhm arrive with his family in tow, assuming that we're right that the kids and Hedwig were in fact living in St. Petersburg and were with him in Warsaw.)
Oh, looks like Preuss says "A la réception de cette lettre, toute la famille de M. de Suhm partit pour Berlin, où elle arriva au commencement de décembre," where "cette lettre" is the one Fritz wrote to Suhm's brother in Warsaw on November 26 saying, "Vous n'aurez qu'à venir à Berlin avec la famille du défunt."
Now, Fritz's phrasing and Preuss's phrasing does make it sound like the family was in Warsaw at the time, but that's not decisive, because 1) Suhm had arrived in Warsaw at the beginning of October, which gave everyone plenty of time to travel to meet him, 2) the Saxon court was in Warsaw at the time (we know this because Suhm was exempt from appearing because he was so sick), 3) the brother was there at Suhm's bedside, and I didn't think he was in St. Petersburg for the last three years! (If nothing else, *one* of the brothers was in Dresden, we know that.)
So I think that the brother was either in St. Petersburg because the court was there, or because he'd gotten word that Suhm was/might be dying, and there post-haste to be with him. So Hedwig and the kids might have done the same if they were in Dresden rather than St. Petersburg.
I also find the chronology very odd: it took about a week for diplomatic correspondence to make it between Dresden and Warsaw, so nearly that, and if Fritz sent his letter on November 26 in reply to a letter written November 11 in Warsaw, I doubt it makes it to Warsaw, even by express post, and an entire family with kids has moved to Berlin at the beginning of December. Mid December at best! If they'd been in Dresden, it would have been more feasible for them to move to Berlin in the beginning of December, but it does kind of sound like they were in Warsaw, maybe, for whatever reason.
Anyway, I know we made them being in Dresden into a plot point for your fic that you wrote me, so I'm extra interested in the question! (Also: what does Suhm do once Fritz and Katte and Keith are settled in France in the fix-it fic? Stay and bring his kids? Go home? Stay and leave the kids where they are? Chronology is not just plot, it's characterization!)
that's different, Fritz would not consider himself in competition with the kids for Suhm after Suhm is dead.
Agreed.
On the one hand: it makes the most sense that it is AW, because not only is Fritz very deliberately cultivating him in the 1730s, but he's also, as a teenager, old enough to travel to Ruppin with just his governor.
Agreed, that's why to me it's the most plausible that it's him, just from what we know for sure.
Flimsy, but we still don't have a canonical explanation as to why Fritz tells Manteuffel that while AW might be badly educated yet good hearted, Heinrich and Ferdinand are just evil brats, with Ferdinand being the worst kid FW ever spawned. Given he's in Ruppin most of the time when he says this, he hardly had a chance to know either of them
But given how quickly Fritz can form a negative opinion of someone, and given that you pointed out he has every incentive to make sure foreign envoys and their courts form negative opinions of the Hohenzollern competition, I think it's entirely possible that he assumed the worst based on his already stressful annual family reunions.
I'm sure he's sure, Fritz. Also why cheese, if Heinrich didn't raid the larder the previous year?
Speaking entirely as a scholar: but these people always sent each other food! Fritz and Heinrich and EC were all sending each other fruit later in life, as you know, Fritz and FW were sending each other food during the Ruppin and Rheinsberg years, and we all know about the FS salmon! Maybe this was when Heinrich got old enough to join in (and it was Fritz's birthday, as you point out), and Mom or Dad prodded him. Eight months is a bit delayed to be repaying larder-raiding from the previous May.
Speaking as a fan: there's no reason it couldn't have been Heinrich followed by Ferdinand, and the events played out exactly as you describe them! Loved the emoji version, would love the AO3 retelling!
I think he's just implying Other Seckendorff solely got the job due to his uncle, and "Cardinal" just goes with that.
Fair. I had considered that, but wanted your opinion.
Also, go you for spotting it immediatley, as opposed to 1787 editor who of course doesn't know there's a secret diary.
I attended the university of Selena, which is the only reason I know anything about other Seckendorff!
that the name of Seckendorf, will never more be heard spoken of
Except when leading the Wittelsbach Emperor's war effort after MT has set him free, and then much later when I kidnap him to exchange him with Moritz von Anhalt-Dessau.
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Re: Suhm letters II
Doesn't Fritz mention in a letter to Wilhelmine a bit earlier than this that Suhm is short of cash? So while the playing sugar daddy factor might have played a role, I think it might simply have been that he needed the money. He had his own children to finance, too.
But it's interesting because Suhm always refers to "I" and "my" in terms of the house where he lives in St. Petersburg, the house almost burning down, etc. So if he's got his family with him, then he is consciously avoiding talking about them with Fritz (who, in contrast, is more than happy to bitch about his brother showing up, for example), unless he needs them taken care of.
Speculation: maybe he's aware that when Fritz loves you, your priorities should be Fritz, i.e. Fritz does not want to be reminded more than absolutely necessary there are these other kids around. I know you think of Suhm as playing the erastes role at this point, but there might be some leftover father figure at work as well. I don't see as contradicting Suhm later entrusting the kids to Fritz in the event of his death - that's different, Fritz would not consider himself in competition with the kids for Suhm after Suhm is dead.
One, how do I put this...wow, this family. I know your father's put you in a shitty situation, Fritz, but way to pass it down the chain.
I wonder if AW ever figured out what was going on. Did Fritz forge his signature, or did he get trusting younger bro to sign a piece of paper without letting on what he was really signing up for?
Honestly? I'm betting on the later. Given that FW in 1730 made it law you're not allowed to lend money to minors who are royal princes, and was really vocal about this. Now teenage AW might have been happy to do slightly Dad forbidden things for Cool Older Bro, but this was a major Dad forbidden thing.
Two, "my brother," unmarked, is AW. This makes me think that in 1736, it's AW who shows up at Ruppin and is more interested in eating than reading. I'm still happy to read a babysitting fic where it's Heinrich followed by Ferdinand, mind you!
On the one hand: it makes the most sense that it is AW, because not only is Fritz very deliberately cultivating him in the 1730s, but he's also, as a teenager, old enough to travel to Ruppin with just his governor. Also, it might be that whichever of your biographies - Blanning? MacDonough? - said it was Heinrich confused Heinrich with the Schwedt cousin of the same first name again, who definitely did visit Fritz both in Ruppin and at Rheinsberg (and according to Zimmermann inflicted a quack doctor for STD on him). I've seen a tumblr post making the same mistake when quoting Crown Prince Fritz on "Prince Heinrich" being a wild party animal, where they conclude FW must have been totally permissive with Heinrich, without ever bothering to check the dates and the age.
On the other hand: Flimsy, but we still don't have a canonical explanation as to why Fritz tells Manteuffel that while AW might be badly educated yet good hearted, Heinrich and Ferdinand are just evil brats, with Ferdinand being the worst kid FW ever spawned. Given he's in Ruppin most of the time when he says this, he hardly had a chance to know either of them, so my first explanation was "they kicked him under the table during the winter holidays", and the second, as you know, was Rokoko babysitting.
And then there's the first preserved Fritz to Heinrich letter at Trier, which is dated February 3rd 1737, and where he thanks Heinrich for gifting him with cheeses (to his birthday on January 24th, presumably): My dearest brother,
I am infinitely obliged to you for your memories, and for the cheeses you are kind enough to send me. I would like to have something that could be pleasant to you, in order to show you, my dear brother, that the friendship that I have for you does not yield anything to that which you have for me. You may be sure, my dearest brother.
I'm sure he's sure, Fritz. Also why cheese, if Heinrich didn't raid the larder the previous year?
Not sure about the Cardinal; any guesses? (I doubt he's saying he's actually Seckendorff's son, which is how it usually worked with popes and their "nephews" who were made cardinals, which is how we got the word "nepotism". But that is the first thing that comes to mind for me when you juxtapose "cardinal" and "nephew".)
It does, though there were also some actual nephews along with the bastard sons who were also made Cardinals. I think he's just implying Other Seckendorff solely got the job due to his uncle, and "Cardinal" just goes with that. If he does want to make a religious allusion, Seckendorff ISN'T Catholic - see his biographer telling an anecdote on his refusal to convert - and is religious enough so his poor fool will end up locked in prison for a love affair.
Also, go you for spotting it immediatley, as opposed to 1787 editor who of course doesn't know there's a secret diary.
that the name of Seckendorf, will never more be heard spoken of
Except when leading the Wittelsbach Emperor's war effort after MT has set him free, and then much later when I kidnap him to exchange him with Moritz von Anhalt-Dessau.
Re: Suhm letters II
Oh, that's definitely why he was looking for a job! Fritz and Suhm have this long exchange extending over several letters in 1736 about how Suhm needs a job and how Fritz wishes he could provide it, and he grumps about how the Dresden court obviously doesn't appreciate Suhm, and says he pities them for their bad taste more than he pities Suhm the obviously awesome. That's why I wrote "in part".
But while I'm sure Suhm exaggerated "I really don't want to go so far away!" to Fritz, the fact that he had been so sick before he left, the fact that he told Fritz he had proactively had himself declared an invalid before arriving at court, the fact that he was so sick during his three years there, and the fact that the journey back killed him, I have to think there was at least a kernel of truth to the fact that he would have preferred, say, the climate of Turin. ;)
Since he complained about the difficulty of finding a suitable position in Dresden, and since envoy positions don't open up every day, and turning it down even for health reasons might have looked bad, maybe he would have jumped on it regardless. So maybe Fritz didn't factor into the decision at all, and that was purely a PR move (I see a lot of PR moves in Suhm's letters to Fritz). But having discovered that he already had reason to believe, even before he left, that he could start pumping the court for money for Fritz, I wonder if that played a role in his decision. I seem to recall Fritz later starts giving him a cut from the proceeds in the forms of rings and whatnot, and certainly it would be a good investment in the future, beyond short-term altruism. (Rarely only one reason for an action, as I like to say.)
Speculation: maybe he's aware that when Fritz loves you, your priorities should be Fritz, i.e. Fritz does not want to be reminded more than absolutely necessary there are these other kids around.
Oh, that's exactly what I assumed it had to be. I can't think of any other reason. I'm just impressed by how thoroughgoing Suhm's adherence to this principle is. When Wilhelmine's residence burns down, even though Fritz is not a fan of her bringing up her new family with him, she manages to work in how depressed her husband is and how much he needs a replacement flute and such. Suhm might as well be living alone when his residence almost burns down twice, to the point where I'm still half-questioning whose kids were crossing that river/those rivers.
I know you think of Suhm as playing the erastes role at this point
Oh, but that's my fannish side, not my scholarly side! My scholarly side thinks a father figure role is quite likely. (Though I honestly think that the lines got blurred a bit around this time in his life. Describing himself as a "widow and orphan in one" when Keyserlingk and Jordan died may just have been because those were the terms for which he had a vocabulary for bereavement, but it may also have been a case that Fritz was getting a variety of emotional needs met by people about a generation older than him, and that included romantic friendship.)
So yeah, Fritz might well have seen the kids as emotional competition, and Suhm was sensitive enough to pick up on that and willing to go along with it. Unlike the Émilie-Voltaire-Fritz triangle that emerged at the same time! (Note that unlike Émilie, Fritz was evidently happy to have Suhm arrive with his family in tow, assuming that we're right that the kids and Hedwig were in fact living in St. Petersburg and were with him in Warsaw.)
Oh, looks like Preuss says "A la réception de cette lettre, toute la famille de M. de Suhm partit pour Berlin, où elle arriva au commencement de décembre," where "cette lettre" is the one Fritz wrote to Suhm's brother in Warsaw on November 26 saying, "Vous n'aurez qu'à venir à Berlin avec la famille du défunt."
Now, Fritz's phrasing and Preuss's phrasing does make it sound like the family was in Warsaw at the time, but that's not decisive, because 1) Suhm had arrived in Warsaw at the beginning of October, which gave everyone plenty of time to travel to meet him, 2) the Saxon court was in Warsaw at the time (we know this because Suhm was exempt from appearing because he was so sick), 3) the brother was there at Suhm's bedside, and I didn't think he was in St. Petersburg for the last three years! (If nothing else, *one* of the brothers was in Dresden, we know that.)
So I think that the brother was either in St. Petersburg because the court was there, or because he'd gotten word that Suhm was/might be dying, and there post-haste to be with him. So Hedwig and the kids might have done the same if they were in Dresden rather than St. Petersburg.
I also find the chronology very odd: it took about a week for diplomatic correspondence to make it between Dresden and Warsaw, so nearly that, and if Fritz sent his letter on November 26 in reply to a letter written November 11 in Warsaw, I doubt it makes it to Warsaw, even by express post, and an entire family with kids has moved to Berlin at the beginning of December. Mid December at best! If they'd been in Dresden, it would have been more feasible for them to move to Berlin in the beginning of December, but it does kind of sound like they were in Warsaw, maybe, for whatever reason.
Anyway, I know we made them being in Dresden into a plot point for your fic that you wrote me, so I'm extra interested in the question! (Also: what does Suhm do once Fritz and Katte and Keith are settled in France in the fix-it fic? Stay and bring his kids? Go home? Stay and leave the kids where they are? Chronology is not just plot, it's characterization!)
that's different, Fritz would not consider himself in competition with the kids for Suhm after Suhm is dead.
Agreed.
On the one hand: it makes the most sense that it is AW, because not only is Fritz very deliberately cultivating him in the 1730s, but he's also, as a teenager, old enough to travel to Ruppin with just his governor.
Agreed, that's why to me it's the most plausible that it's him, just from what we know for sure.
Flimsy, but we still don't have a canonical explanation as to why Fritz tells Manteuffel that while AW might be badly educated yet good hearted, Heinrich and Ferdinand are just evil brats, with Ferdinand being the worst kid FW ever spawned. Given he's in Ruppin most of the time when he says this, he hardly had a chance to know either of them
But given how quickly Fritz can form a negative opinion of someone, and given that you pointed out he has every incentive to make sure foreign envoys and their courts form negative opinions of the Hohenzollern competition, I think it's entirely possible that he assumed the worst based on his already stressful annual family reunions.
I'm sure he's sure, Fritz. Also why cheese, if Heinrich didn't raid the larder the previous year?
Speaking entirely as a scholar: but these people always sent each other food! Fritz and Heinrich and EC were all sending each other fruit later in life, as you know, Fritz and FW were sending each other food during the Ruppin and Rheinsberg years, and we all know about the FS salmon! Maybe this was when Heinrich got old enough to join in (and it was Fritz's birthday, as you point out), and Mom or Dad prodded him. Eight months is a bit delayed to be repaying larder-raiding from the previous May.
Speaking as a fan: there's no reason it couldn't have been Heinrich followed by Ferdinand, and the events played out exactly as you describe them! Loved the emoji version, would love the AO3 retelling!
I think he's just implying Other Seckendorff solely got the job due to his uncle, and "Cardinal" just goes with that.
Fair. I had considered that, but wanted your opinion.
Also, go you for spotting it immediatley, as opposed to 1787 editor who of course doesn't know there's a secret diary.
I attended the university of Selena, which is the only reason I know anything about other Seckendorff!
that the name of Seckendorf, will never more be heard spoken of
Except when leading the Wittelsbach Emperor's war effort after MT has set him free, and then much later when I kidnap him to exchange him with Moritz von Anhalt-Dessau.
What I was thinking, especially the latter part!