I wonder what was involved in that. Since Peter, as we know, left a week before Fritz was even due to arrive.
One the one hand: it actually would make sense if the original plan had been for Fritz to escape from Wesel for all the reasons Hertefeld gives, plus if England is your intended destination, then that's the pest route. However, in the interrogations Fritz says that he wanted to go to France first because he knew that if he went to England directly, then FW would blame SD (and Wilhelmine) as conspirators. (BTW: he had to know FW would blame them anyway.) If you want to go to France, then of course Fritz' far earlier point of departure is better. So: what was the original plan, and when and how did they all talk about it, given Peter is transferred to Wesel at the end of January 1730? If it was always for Fritz to leave from southern Germany and go to France, then Peter's participation is actually not necessary at all. He could have, like Spaen, be someone who knows but stays where he is and hopes FW won't suspect later he knows. Not to mention: unlike Katte, Peter has no useful connections in England or France, he doesn't know G1's former mistress or French Count Rottembourg. Involving Peter in the active planing at all also carries the risk of the mail to and from Wesel being read.
Now I think you brought this up before, but it does point towards the escape idea originally being hashed out between Fritz and Peter, and modified later once Katte came on board. Maybe what Hertefeld Sr. and Jr. recall was the original plan, but hadn't been any longer after March when the last attempt at an English marriage fell through and Fritz talked Katte into joining him, and that's another thing that got simplified with the various retellings, because "first it was this plan, and then it was that plan" is tricky to remember along with everything else.
Also, interestingly, Wilhelmine says he was waiting for a saddle to be made that could contain all the papers and money and stuff he needed to travel with.said (whether it was true or not) to his Gens d'Armes comrades when they asked him during the weeks of his arrest in Berlin why the hell he hadn't left earlier that it was because *instrument for method of transportation* needed to be repaired, and Wilhelmine heard it from another member of the regiment. (Indirectly, because my new theory here is that Wilhelmine had it from Fräulein von Pannewitz, FW puncher and sister to Katte's commander Colonel von Pannewitz, when she visited Berlin for eight months between late 1732 and 1733, and that Fräulein von Pannewitz had it from her brother.)
Conversely, it doesn't necessarily contradict Fritz telling Mitchell that he heard from the Danish envoy Katte remained because of "some girl", because that might have been the reason Katte gave to the Dane when talking to him before his arrest, especially if we're right and Katte actually meant that he needed to burn all the stuff incriminating Wilhelmine. I could see Katte giving a different reasons to regiment comrades, who'd know more about whether or not he was involved with someone at the time, and the Danish envoy, who doesn't, in both cases avoiding to name the actual reason for reasons of discretion.
At any rate, the 8 am detail in the anecdote matches the protocol's 6-7 am quite closely. With all the back and forth, I could see an hour passing before Hertefeld was notified. That means at least one detail of this anecdote, and a surprisingly specific one, is attested.
Yes, and since Dad Hertefeld had no way of looking that up while narrating the story to Hertefeld Jr., I think that makes it canon that Hertefeld was the guy on guard duty that day and did receive Katte etc.
As noted downthread, the chronology actually works out on this. Which means no "Lang lebe der König" from Katte here! It also, if it actually happened like this, makes me question the point in the Puncta where Katte repeats that this is extremely not FW's fault, just God's will! Genuine piety or not, "the tyrant demands blood" is a little less saintly and more martyr-like than the document for FW's consumption shows.
My thinking precisely. If it's an authentic quote, we're given a rare glimpse of what Katte actually thought about FW sentencing him to death, as opposed to what he felt he had to write to his father and to Fritz, knowing in either case his letters would have to pass censorship. Now, if this was an account like Voltaire's written outside Prussia, I'd be more sceptical. But inside Prussia, criticism of FW even in the age of FW3, two generations removed, is not a given thing, and the takes at the time Nicolai publishes this Hertefeld letter that I've read so far toe the line of "very tragic, this fallout between FW and Fritz, but thankfully, they made up later and we can root for both Kings!" And the description of Katte before his death all focus on what a model prisoner he was and how he died in the faith. So this quote is really bucking the trend and risking censorship tickling here, which makes me believe it is authentic.
(Also: Lehndorff's negative descriptions of Hertefeld focus on him being boring; he doesn't say he thinks Hertefeld is a liar or prone to exaggaration.)
Okay, I'm having way too much fun with this, but between this source, Seckendorff, and the Mylius report, I've got the following itinerary for Peter's flight!
Brün Gate (Wesel) - Dingden - Nijmegen - Rhenen - Utrecht - Hague (and of course the nearby port at Scheveningen, where everyone agrees he was smuggled to England from).
Very useful for future fanfic writers!
Kita is short for Kindertagesstätte, so it's a daycare centre.
I suspect we have another simplification
Yes. Since Hertefeld Jr. isn't sure about the English or the French envoy, I think it's even more likely he just recalled about Peter's ten years of absence that he ended up serving in Portugal on reccommendation of some British nobles, and simplified this to the rec having been given by the English envoy himself in the Hague. It's an obvious mistake to make.
Like you two, I'm very charmed by Peter reading late at night, and I think that's another authentic detail. As is, of course, Peter being cross-eyed, which, again, the two Hertefelds had no way of looking up when giving their version, unlike us, so Jr. correctly remembered from what Sr. had told him.
does this mean we can trust the Katte details that we haven't encountered elsewhere or that we have but not in a trustworthy source?
See above to my take on the "le tyran" quote and the "why did Katte stay in Berlin" question, as well as "was Fritz escaping from Wesel the original plan, and if so, why then did Peter leave before Fritz was supposed to get there?". Yours?
Re: The Escape Attempt (Nicolai Version)
One the one hand: it actually would make sense if the original plan had been for Fritz to escape from Wesel for all the reasons Hertefeld gives, plus if England is your intended destination, then that's the pest route. However, in the interrogations Fritz says that he wanted to go to France first because he knew that if he went to England directly, then FW would blame SD (and Wilhelmine) as conspirators. (BTW: he had to know FW would blame them anyway.) If you want to go to France, then of course Fritz' far earlier point of departure is better. So: what was the original plan, and when and how did they all talk about it, given Peter is transferred to Wesel at the end of January 1730? If it was always for Fritz to leave from southern Germany and go to France, then Peter's participation is actually not necessary at all. He could have, like Spaen, be someone who knows but stays where he is and hopes FW won't suspect later he knows. Not to mention: unlike Katte, Peter has no useful connections in England or France, he doesn't know G1's former mistress or French Count Rottembourg. Involving Peter in the active planing at all also carries the risk of the mail to and from Wesel being read.
Now I think you brought this up before, but it does point towards the escape idea originally being hashed out between Fritz and Peter, and modified later once Katte came on board. Maybe what Hertefeld Sr. and Jr. recall was the original plan, but hadn't been any longer after March when the last attempt at an English marriage fell through and Fritz talked Katte into joining him, and that's another thing that got simplified with the various retellings, because "first it was this plan, and then it was that plan" is tricky to remember along with everything else.
Also, interestingly, Wilhelmine says he was waiting for a saddle to be made that could contain all the papers and money and stuff he needed to travel with.said (whether it was true or not) to his Gens d'Armes comrades when they asked him during the weeks of his arrest in Berlin why the hell he hadn't left earlier that it was because *instrument for method of transportation* needed to be repaired, and Wilhelmine heard it from another member of the regiment. (Indirectly, because my new theory here is that Wilhelmine had it from Fräulein von Pannewitz, FW puncher and sister to Katte's commander Colonel von Pannewitz, when she visited Berlin for eight months between late 1732 and 1733, and that Fräulein von Pannewitz had it from her brother.)
Conversely, it doesn't necessarily contradict Fritz telling Mitchell that he heard from the Danish envoy Katte remained because of "some girl", because that might have been the reason Katte gave to the Dane when talking to him before his arrest, especially if we're right and Katte actually meant that he needed to burn all the stuff incriminating Wilhelmine. I could see Katte giving a different reasons to regiment comrades, who'd know more about whether or not he was involved with someone at the time, and the Danish envoy, who doesn't, in both cases avoiding to name the actual reason for reasons of discretion.
At any rate, the 8 am detail in the anecdote matches the protocol's 6-7 am quite closely. With all the back and forth, I could see an hour passing before Hertefeld was notified. That means at least one detail of this anecdote, and a surprisingly specific one, is attested.
Yes, and since Dad Hertefeld had no way of looking that up while narrating the story to Hertefeld Jr., I think that makes it canon that Hertefeld was the guy on guard duty that day and did receive Katte etc.
As noted downthread, the chronology actually works out on this. Which means no "Lang lebe der König" from Katte here! It also, if it actually happened like this, makes me question the point in the Puncta where Katte repeats that this is extremely not FW's fault, just God's will! Genuine piety or not, "the tyrant demands blood" is a little less saintly and more martyr-like than the document for FW's consumption shows.
My thinking precisely. If it's an authentic quote, we're given a rare glimpse of what Katte actually thought about FW sentencing him to death, as opposed to what he felt he had to write to his father and to Fritz, knowing in either case his letters would have to pass censorship. Now, if this was an account like Voltaire's written outside Prussia, I'd be more sceptical. But inside Prussia, criticism of FW even in the age of FW3, two generations removed, is not a given thing, and the takes at the time Nicolai publishes this Hertefeld letter that I've read so far toe the line of "very tragic, this fallout between FW and Fritz, but thankfully, they made up later and we can root for both Kings!" And the description of Katte before his death all focus on what a model prisoner he was and how he died in the faith. So this quote is really bucking the trend and risking censorship tickling here, which makes me believe it is authentic.
(Also: Lehndorff's negative descriptions of Hertefeld focus on him being boring; he doesn't say he thinks Hertefeld is a liar or prone to exaggaration.)
Okay, I'm having way too much fun with this, but between this source, Seckendorff, and the Mylius report, I've got the following itinerary for Peter's flight!
Brün Gate (Wesel) - Dingden - Nijmegen - Rhenen - Utrecht - Hague (and of course the nearby port at Scheveningen, where everyone agrees he was smuggled to England from).
Very useful for future fanfic writers!
Kita is short for Kindertagesstätte, so it's a daycare centre.
I suspect we have another simplification
Yes. Since Hertefeld Jr. isn't sure about the English or the French envoy, I think it's even more likely he just recalled about Peter's ten years of absence that he ended up serving in Portugal on reccommendation of some British nobles, and simplified this to the rec having been given by the English envoy himself in the Hague. It's an obvious mistake to make.
Like you two, I'm very charmed by Peter reading late at night, and I think that's another authentic detail. As is, of course, Peter being cross-eyed, which, again, the two Hertefelds had no way of looking up when giving their version, unlike us, so Jr. correctly remembered from what Sr. had told him.
does this mean we can trust the Katte details that we haven't encountered elsewhere or that we have but not in a trustworthy source?
See above to my take on the "le tyran" quote and the "why did Katte stay in Berlin" question, as well as "was Fritz escaping from Wesel the original plan, and if so, why then did Peter leave before Fritz was supposed to get there?". Yours?