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Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 24
Every post I can't believe this is still going on, and yet, here we are :D
Having read the article ![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
felis linked, including the footnotes, I see we have a first name for Neumann - Gottfried - but still none for Schöning. According to Neumann, their respective duties were:
Schöning: SECOND chamber hussar OMG SECOND: shaving Fritz, giving Fritz his medications, taking care of Fritz' enemas, otherwise "just like every other servant"'s duties, whereas
Neumann: FIRST chamber hussar: waking Fritz in the morning, dressing him (?? - maybe once he was ill?), creating Fritz' tail, selecting a wig, handing both coffee and water to Fritz, bring any and each letters addressed to the King to him, as well as execute any orders of the day Fritz may give.
According to yet another foonote, Neumann was born in 1752 in one of the 17 villages Peterdorf, Silesia, started his work for Fritz as a runner in 1772, ended up as First Chamber Husar and adminstrator of the royal private purse (Privatschatulle des Königs) until Fritz' death. Neumann himself died as chief of police (Polizei-Direktor) in Liegnitz on June 24th 1799.
Now, aside of Zimmermann getting wrong who was outranking whom, all this doesn't contradict the previous info;felis said the Schatulle accounts list Schöning for shaving and medication espenses, especially leeches, and even Zimmermann quoting the courtier to the effect that Schöning was currently Fritz' only doctor (due to the firing of the others) fits. Note that Schöning himself in his own account doesn't say anything about himself at all. His account is strictly about Fritz and doesn't include "the King and I" stories. But what I find telling in retrospect is the passage about Fritz being the kinder to the servants who nursed him (i.e., it appears, Schöning himself) the worse off he was, and that you could always tell he got better when he started being rude again, also that Fritz in his last years generally mellowed a bit towards the staff and "made little presents after illnesses to those who nursed him".
Something else that struck me is this: in his own account, Schöning doesn't mention Glasow, Völker or for that matter, Desen. He limits himself to the "sometimes, the King gave a lot of money to unworthy people, and no, I won't be talking about the motivation for this here" observation. Büsching, otoh, in his recounting of the Desen story (ending in suicide) gives Schöning as a source; I translated Büsching's version for you back in the day, and it's listed for contrast in the Georgii entry at Rheinsberg. Note it ends with Fritz just commenting he hadn't thought Desen had it (the shooting himself) in him. Zimmermann, who hears about Desen, can't resist improving on this because he's all about how misunderstood Fritz was really loving at heart, and says that Fritz was really sorry once the guy had shot himself and said maybe he shouldn't have been so harsh. Neumann, apparantly feeling the need to defend Fritz from this, too, which tells you something about Neumann, says NO HE DID NOT, he couldn't have cared less about Desen by then, he just said he hadn't thought Desen would have the courage.
felis linked, including the footnotes, I see we have a first name for Neumann - Gottfried - but still none for Schöning. According to Neumann, their respective duties were:Schöning: SECOND chamber hussar OMG SECOND: shaving Fritz, giving Fritz his medications, taking care of Fritz' enemas, otherwise "just like every other servant"'s duties, whereas
Neumann: FIRST chamber hussar: waking Fritz in the morning, dressing him (?? - maybe once he was ill?), creating Fritz' tail, selecting a wig, handing both coffee and water to Fritz, bring any and each letters addressed to the King to him, as well as execute any orders of the day Fritz may give.
According to yet another foonote, Neumann was born in 1752 in one of the 17 villages Peterdorf, Silesia, started his work for Fritz as a runner in 1772, ended up as First Chamber Husar and adminstrator of the royal private purse (Privatschatulle des Königs) until Fritz' death. Neumann himself died as chief of police (Polizei-Direktor) in Liegnitz on June 24th 1799.
Now, aside of Zimmermann getting wrong who was outranking whom, all this doesn't contradict the previous info;
felis said the Schatulle accounts list Schöning for shaving and medication espenses, especially leeches, and even Zimmermann quoting the courtier to the effect that Schöning was currently Fritz' only doctor (due to the firing of the others) fits. Note that Schöning himself in his own account doesn't say anything about himself at all. His account is strictly about Fritz and doesn't include "the King and I" stories. But what I find telling in retrospect is the passage about Fritz being the kinder to the servants who nursed him (i.e., it appears, Schöning himself) the worse off he was, and that you could always tell he got better when he started being rude again, also that Fritz in his last years generally mellowed a bit towards the staff and "made little presents after illnesses to those who nursed him". Something else that struck me is this: in his own account, Schöning doesn't mention Glasow, Völker or for that matter, Desen. He limits himself to the "sometimes, the King gave a lot of money to unworthy people, and no, I won't be talking about the motivation for this here" observation. Büsching, otoh, in his recounting of the Desen story (ending in suicide) gives Schöning as a source; I translated Büsching's version for you back in the day, and it's listed for contrast in the Georgii entry at Rheinsberg. Note it ends with Fritz just commenting he hadn't thought Desen had it (the shooting himself) in him. Zimmermann, who hears about Desen, can't resist improving on this because he's all about how misunderstood Fritz was really loving at heart, and says that Fritz was really sorry once the guy had shot himself and said maybe he shouldn't have been so harsh. Neumann, apparantly feeling the need to defend Fritz from this, too, which tells you something about Neumann, says NO HE DID NOT, he couldn't have cared less about Desen by then, he just said he hadn't thought Desen would have the courage.
Yeah, I super remember you and mildred telling me about Voltaire being Deist and therefore believing in God but not in an afterlife -- which actually really resonated with me at the time for reasons too complex for me to go into right before my bedtime, so I'm not likely to forget that even if I wasn't (still, slowly) reading Orieux -- and I am absolutely sure you guys must have mentioned Fritz being Deist too at the time, but somehow my brain retained that Voltaire was Deist and not Fritz?? IDK, I really like Voltaire, I guess :P
BTW, I seem to recall some of the US Founding Fathers were Deists, too, notably Jefferson
Yeah, the funny thing is, like mildred I learned Jefferson was a Deist in school but they never really went into Deism very much -- I knew Deists didn't believe in organized religion but I would have assumed they believed in an afterlife until, well, last year :P
BTW, I seem to recall some of the US Founding Fathers were Deists, too, notably Jefferson
Yeah, the funny thing is, like mildred I learned Jefferson was a Deist in school but they never really went into Deism very much -- I knew Deists didn't believe in organized religion but I would have assumed they believed in an afterlife until, well, last year :P
sometimes I get fascinated with numbers and locations, depending on the topic.
There are a lot of numbers and locations in Nicolai's refutation, demonstrating all Zimmermann got wrong, but you'll forgive if I don't transcribe them. After all, no one remembers Zimmermann for his Prussian geography, or lack of same.
That's awesome, though! Because I've always been aware that I have no way to refute the hypothetical argument "But what if they just missed it because they weren't looking?"
But they were looking--that's perfect! :D
Conclusion: reading Voltaire in Frederician Prussia can have really unexpected results! It even encourages detailed genital examination!
chronology reminder: Voltaire's memoirs were published in 1784, Fritz died in 1786, meaning the medical officers have been reading bestsellers when they were published. :D
They did, and it's so telling of just how widely read Voltaire was that basically everyone encountering us in our primarly sources research quest if they were still alive in 1784 has read Voltaire's trashy tell all, no matter whether they're Fritz fans or enemies themselves. (And I'll never not be amused about Lehndorff in 1784 first getting a kick out of Heinrich reading the French original out loud to him, inserted with comments, at Rheinsberg, and then being utterly shocked a few months later when he spots a German translation in a Berlin book shop, for everyone to read.
BTW, Goethe also read it in 1784, and, I was reminded of this recently, wrote in a letter he thought it was entertaining as hell but also read like the kind of satire men write about how women suck if they're about to fall at the ladies' feet and in love all over again before the ink is dry. Methinks young Goethe was better attuned to the Fritz and Voltaire dynamic than many a(nother) Fritz fan.
(Chronology: this was after De La Literature Allemande.)
I see Nicolai and Koser are soul mates in some respects.
To a degree. Let's not forget, Nicolai isn't above a certain fleshing out himself, given that we've yet to discover anyone but Nicolai presenting Glasow as seduced by Völker etc. Then again, Koser, while never inventing new stuff or changing facts, does change the emotional coloring in his renditions. I noticed this most blatantly in his version of Fritz' post-Kolin melt down with Heinrich, which he bases exclusively on Henckel von Donnersmarck's account, only in Koser's biography, the soldiers when Fritz arrives after 36 hours on horseback aren't just struck by that, they're struck by how his eyes, usually always so bright and energetic, now have darkened, which certainly isn't something Henckel noted.
(And of course there's the nearby "Heinrich and Wilhelmine were Fritz' emotional confidants at this point, only Heinrich was coarser than W & F and didn't have their passionate nature but was cold" observation, which if it's based on anything is based on Henckel's admiring description of Heinrich having it together when organizing the Prague retreat and getting Fritz to sign off on his plan.)
But much more likely it's a MacSomething (MacJemand? MacEtwas? How do you say this in German, I must know. :P)
MacSoundso. Though that's not how 18th century guy Nicolai phrases it. He first quotes the relevant passage from Zimmermann's "Fragments" book, which is:
Z speaking: "Mackenzie was filled with an immortal hatred on Friedrich, as can be easily guessed; and as a close relation and dear friend of Lord Bute, he after his return to England infected this otherwise good man with his immortal hatred, too. One knows from Friedrich's "History of the 7 Years War" how Lord Bute treated the hero who had just revived near the end of that war."
Nicolai comments: "There we have an important deduction all the cabinets of Europe missed, and even Friedrich himself in his "Histoire" did not dare to reveal! Alas, the whole thing falls apart. It's not easy but difficult to guess that Mr. Mackenzie should have developed an immortal hatred on Frederick the Great because of such an affair. For it's far easier to believe that he made a good marriage thereafter and didn't think about the matter anymore fifteen years later. Moreover, we aren't enlightened (by Z)how close this Mackenzie - the family name contains multitudes - is related to Lord Bute, and how close their friendship was supposed to be to allow Mackenzie to infect a state minister with his immortal hatred. There's rather a huge plothole here. For Herr v. Z himself says on page 91 "Mackenzie had to separate from his beloved due to the demands of his family", and if Lord Bute did indeed belong to this family, he shouldn't have hated King Friedrich but rather loved him for contributing to the fulfillment of this very demand.
Now, we've come across some fascinating and sometimes obscure cross connections in this fandom - young Andrew Mitchell/Algarotti, Hervey knowing Voltaire, Lady Mary meeting Countess Orzelska in Rome (or for that matter Lady Mary being Lord Bute's mother-in-law - he married her daughter, and she died in his house) - and the world of the European aristocracy was relatively small. It's by no means impossible that Barbarina's ex could have been related to Lord Bute, or at least known to him. But as Zimmermann names no proof he was, and seems to have guessed solely on the basis of the name sounding Scottish and Bute being a Scot. (Bute being a Scot would have been unmissable to anyone living, as Zimmermann did, in Hannover, because it factored in to the massive anti-Scot feeling in the second half of the 18th century (see the anecdote I've told of young Boswell witnessing Highlander soldiers returning from the 7 Years War getting bood in a London theatre with the yells "no Scots! No Scots!") and was mentioned in each and every rant against him.)
It occurs to me that Zimmermann really has a fanfiction-writing mind, going for romantic theories wherever he can, be it Fritz/MT or the English policy near the end of the 7 Years War being dictated by Barbarina's ex. And of course his biggest ship is Fritz/Himself (in a tender, manly, STRAIGHT fashion).
There are a lot of numbers and locations in Nicolai's refutation, demonstrating all Zimmermann got wrong, but you'll forgive if I don't transcribe them. After all, no one remembers Zimmermann for his Prussian geography, or lack of same.
That's awesome, though! Because I've always been aware that I have no way to refute the hypothetical argument "But what if they just missed it because they weren't looking?"
But they were looking--that's perfect! :D
Conclusion: reading Voltaire in Frederician Prussia can have really unexpected results! It even encourages detailed genital examination!
chronology reminder: Voltaire's memoirs were published in 1784, Fritz died in 1786, meaning the medical officers have been reading bestsellers when they were published. :D
They did, and it's so telling of just how widely read Voltaire was that basically everyone encountering us in our primarly sources research quest if they were still alive in 1784 has read Voltaire's trashy tell all, no matter whether they're Fritz fans or enemies themselves. (And I'll never not be amused about Lehndorff in 1784 first getting a kick out of Heinrich reading the French original out loud to him, inserted with comments, at Rheinsberg, and then being utterly shocked a few months later when he spots a German translation in a Berlin book shop, for everyone to read.
BTW, Goethe also read it in 1784, and, I was reminded of this recently, wrote in a letter he thought it was entertaining as hell but also read like the kind of satire men write about how women suck if they're about to fall at the ladies' feet and in love all over again before the ink is dry. Methinks young Goethe was better attuned to the Fritz and Voltaire dynamic than many a(nother) Fritz fan.
(Chronology: this was after De La Literature Allemande.)
I see Nicolai and Koser are soul mates in some respects.
To a degree. Let's not forget, Nicolai isn't above a certain fleshing out himself, given that we've yet to discover anyone but Nicolai presenting Glasow as seduced by Völker etc. Then again, Koser, while never inventing new stuff or changing facts, does change the emotional coloring in his renditions. I noticed this most blatantly in his version of Fritz' post-Kolin melt down with Heinrich, which he bases exclusively on Henckel von Donnersmarck's account, only in Koser's biography, the soldiers when Fritz arrives after 36 hours on horseback aren't just struck by that, they're struck by how his eyes, usually always so bright and energetic, now have darkened, which certainly isn't something Henckel noted.
(And of course there's the nearby "Heinrich and Wilhelmine were Fritz' emotional confidants at this point, only Heinrich was coarser than W & F and didn't have their passionate nature but was cold" observation, which if it's based on anything is based on Henckel's admiring description of Heinrich having it together when organizing the Prague retreat and getting Fritz to sign off on his plan.)
But much more likely it's a MacSomething (MacJemand? MacEtwas? How do you say this in German, I must know. :P)
MacSoundso. Though that's not how 18th century guy Nicolai phrases it. He first quotes the relevant passage from Zimmermann's "Fragments" book, which is:
Z speaking: "Mackenzie was filled with an immortal hatred on Friedrich, as can be easily guessed; and as a close relation and dear friend of Lord Bute, he after his return to England infected this otherwise good man with his immortal hatred, too. One knows from Friedrich's "History of the 7 Years War" how Lord Bute treated the hero who had just revived near the end of that war."
Nicolai comments: "There we have an important deduction all the cabinets of Europe missed, and even Friedrich himself in his "Histoire" did not dare to reveal! Alas, the whole thing falls apart. It's not easy but difficult to guess that Mr. Mackenzie should have developed an immortal hatred on Frederick the Great because of such an affair. For it's far easier to believe that he made a good marriage thereafter and didn't think about the matter anymore fifteen years later. Moreover, we aren't enlightened (by Z)how close this Mackenzie - the family name contains multitudes - is related to Lord Bute, and how close their friendship was supposed to be to allow Mackenzie to infect a state minister with his immortal hatred. There's rather a huge plothole here. For Herr v. Z himself says on page 91 "Mackenzie had to separate from his beloved due to the demands of his family", and if Lord Bute did indeed belong to this family, he shouldn't have hated King Friedrich but rather loved him for contributing to the fulfillment of this very demand.
Now, we've come across some fascinating and sometimes obscure cross connections in this fandom - young Andrew Mitchell/Algarotti, Hervey knowing Voltaire, Lady Mary meeting Countess Orzelska in Rome (or for that matter Lady Mary being Lord Bute's mother-in-law - he married her daughter, and she died in his house) - and the world of the European aristocracy was relatively small. It's by no means impossible that Barbarina's ex could have been related to Lord Bute, or at least known to him. But as Zimmermann names no proof he was, and seems to have guessed solely on the basis of the name sounding Scottish and Bute being a Scot. (Bute being a Scot would have been unmissable to anyone living, as Zimmermann did, in Hannover, because it factored in to the massive anti-Scot feeling in the second half of the 18th century (see the anecdote I've told of young Boswell witnessing Highlander soldiers returning from the 7 Years War getting bood in a London theatre with the yells "no Scots! No Scots!") and was mentioned in each and every rant against him.)
It occurs to me that Zimmermann really has a fanfiction-writing mind, going for romantic theories wherever he can, be it Fritz/MT or the English policy near the end of the 7 Years War being dictated by Barbarina's ex. And of course his biggest ship is Fritz/Himself (in a tender, manly, STRAIGHT fashion).
offering, via future FW2 who has just visited her when Lucchesini writes in his diary in 1780, to mediate between Fritz and Heinrich
Hey, I totally missed that! Interesting. Do we have other sources for this? Was Heinrich in regular contact with her?
Couples therapy with Catherine the Great, I'm intrigued.
Hey, I totally missed that! Interesting. Do we have other sources for this? Was Heinrich in regular contact with her?
Couples therapy with Catherine the Great, I'm intrigued.
After all, no one remembers Zimmermann for his Prussian geography, or lack of same.
Except for Neumann. :P At least, he certainly remembers that Zimmermann very unfairly dissed the sandy streets and slow horses of Brandenburg, both of which made it hard to travel quickly. Lies and slander! The horses of Brandenburg are way better than the ones of Hannover.
BTW, Goethe also read it in 1784, and, I was reminded of this recently, wrote in a letter he thought it was entertaining as hell but also read like the kind of satire men write about how women suck if they're about to fall at the ladies' feet and in love all over again before the ink is dry.
!! This is just great. :D
Except for Neumann. :P At least, he certainly remembers that Zimmermann very unfairly dissed the sandy streets and slow horses of Brandenburg, both of which made it hard to travel quickly. Lies and slander! The horses of Brandenburg are way better than the ones of Hannover.
BTW, Goethe also read it in 1784, and, I was reminded of this recently, wrote in a letter he thought it was entertaining as hell but also read like the kind of satire men write about how women suck if they're about to fall at the ladies' feet and in love all over again before the ink is dry.
!! This is just great. :D
Here's the original Goethe quote to you, from a letter to Charlotte von Stein, and having looked it up again, I find there's a slightly different emphasis:
Gotha, 5. Juni 1784.
...Gestern abend vertraute mir die Oberhofmeisterin (Voltaire's trashy tell all) unter den feierlichsten Beteuernngen an. Man sagt, das Büchlein soll gedruckt werden; es wird entsetzliches Aufsehen machen und ich freue mich nur darauf- weil Du es lesen wirst. Es ist so vornehm und mit einem so köstlichen Humor geschrieben als irgend etwas von ihm. Er schreibt vom König in
Preußen wie Sueton die Scandalosa der Weltherrscher - und wenn der Welt über Könige und Fürsten
die Augen aufgehen könnten und sollten, so wären diefe Blätter eine köstliche Salbe. Allein man wird sie lesen wie eine Satire auf die Weiber, sie beiseite legen und ihnen wieder zu Füßen fallen.
...
Gotha, 5. Juni 1784.
...Gestern abend vertraute mir die Oberhofmeisterin (Voltaire's trashy tell all) unter den feierlichsten Beteuernngen an. Man sagt, das Büchlein soll gedruckt werden; es wird entsetzliches Aufsehen machen und ich freue mich nur darauf- weil Du es lesen wirst. Es ist so vornehm und mit einem so köstlichen Humor geschrieben als irgend etwas von ihm. Er schreibt vom König in
Preußen wie Sueton die Scandalosa der Weltherrscher - und wenn der Welt über Könige und Fürsten
die Augen aufgehen könnten und sollten, so wären diefe Blätter eine köstliche Salbe. Allein man wird sie lesen wie eine Satire auf die Weiber, sie beiseite legen und ihnen wieder zu Füßen fallen.
...
Yeah, Schöning really was the closest thing to a nurse Fritz had during his last years it seems.
dressing him (?? - maybe once he was ill?)
Might also have been the general handling of Fritz' clothes? In the "several hours in pouring rain during the Silesia revue" passage, he is quite indignant, saying that, despite what some people write about the King's wardrobe, it's not like he had to sit at the table in wet clothes, there were more than enough clothes for him to get undressed and dressed again.
Neumann, apparantly feeling the need to defend Fritz from this, too, which tells you something about Neumann
Right? It's quite interesting what he feels the need to defend/nitpick. Also, no patience at all for literary exaggeration -
Zimmermann: driving up the hill towards Sanssouci, I prayed most fervently, probably nobody else ever prayed as fervently as I did on this hill.
Neumann: Self-important bullshit, I'd say there were lots of invalids who prayed there way more devoutly than Zimmermann did.
(By the way, a look at the Schatullrechnungen tells me that Neumann, like Schöning, did apparently hand out money to poor people occasionally, and especially invalids in his case, so he does have a reason for saying this. Other recurring expenses in his list are Spanish tobacco for Fritz and postal charges.)
Oh, and Mildred: No, of course no mention of the dogs' fate.
dressing him (?? - maybe once he was ill?)
Might also have been the general handling of Fritz' clothes? In the "several hours in pouring rain during the Silesia revue" passage, he is quite indignant, saying that, despite what some people write about the King's wardrobe, it's not like he had to sit at the table in wet clothes, there were more than enough clothes for him to get undressed and dressed again.
Neumann, apparantly feeling the need to defend Fritz from this, too, which tells you something about Neumann
Right? It's quite interesting what he feels the need to defend/nitpick. Also, no patience at all for literary exaggeration -
Zimmermann: driving up the hill towards Sanssouci, I prayed most fervently, probably nobody else ever prayed as fervently as I did on this hill.
Neumann: Self-important bullshit, I'd say there were lots of invalids who prayed there way more devoutly than Zimmermann did.
(By the way, a look at the Schatullrechnungen tells me that Neumann, like Schöning, did apparently hand out money to poor people occasionally, and especially invalids in his case, so he does have a reason for saying this. Other recurring expenses in his list are Spanish tobacco for Fritz and postal charges.)
Oh, and Mildred: No, of course no mention of the dogs' fate.
No time to do a full salon reply before work, but as the genealogist, I got curious about James Stuart Mackenzie and Lord Bute, and what should Wikipedia tell me but that they were brothers!
Barbarina's wiki page.
James Stuart Mackenzie's wiki page, stating that he was the second son of James Stuart, 2nd Earl of Bute, that he was the brother of Lord Bute, and that he had an affair with Barbarina, was arrested in Venice, brought back to Berlin, and kicked out of Prussia.
He was envoy to Sardinia 1758-1761, and recalled to GB in August 1761. Nothing about being involved in cutting Fritz's funding off in 1762.
Lord Bute (English wiki because more detail), first son of the 2nd Earl of Bute.
So, unless English and German wiki are both extremely wrong, Zimmermann trumps Nicolai in the matter of Scottish genealogy! Not yet in the matter of cutting off Prussian subsidies. Skimming a JSTOR article that was linked by Wikipedia on Lord Bute and Fritz and the 1762 fallout shows me no mentions of the name Mackenzie, although there's no reason to believe that article is comprehensive. Still, the author devotes dozens of pages to arguing that this was a decision driven not by personal animosity between Lord Bute and Fritz, but by the considerations of international politics (which it enumerates in detail). Which I readily believe.
Still, it seems it would be worth a detective pursuing Mackenzie some more.
There are a lot of numbers and locations in Nicolai's refutation, demonstrating all Zimmermann got wrong, but you'll forgive if I don't transcribe them.
You are forgiven. :)
Barbarina's wiki page.
James Stuart Mackenzie's wiki page, stating that he was the second son of James Stuart, 2nd Earl of Bute, that he was the brother of Lord Bute, and that he had an affair with Barbarina, was arrested in Venice, brought back to Berlin, and kicked out of Prussia.
He was envoy to Sardinia 1758-1761, and recalled to GB in August 1761. Nothing about being involved in cutting Fritz's funding off in 1762.
Lord Bute (English wiki because more detail), first son of the 2nd Earl of Bute.
So, unless English and German wiki are both extremely wrong, Zimmermann trumps Nicolai in the matter of Scottish genealogy! Not yet in the matter of cutting off Prussian subsidies. Skimming a JSTOR article that was linked by Wikipedia on Lord Bute and Fritz and the 1762 fallout shows me no mentions of the name Mackenzie, although there's no reason to believe that article is comprehensive. Still, the author devotes dozens of pages to arguing that this was a decision driven not by personal animosity between Lord Bute and Fritz, but by the considerations of international politics (which it enumerates in detail). Which I readily believe.
Still, it seems it would be worth a detective pursuing Mackenzie some more.
There are a lot of numbers and locations in Nicolai's refutation, demonstrating all Zimmermann got wrong, but you'll forgive if I don't transcribe them.
You are forgiven. :)
Edited 2021-03-04 14:19 (UTC)
Okay, then clearly we and Nicolai have wronged Zimmermann re: the connection between Mackenzie and Bute. Yowsers. Though I still think Nicolai was right about Lord Bute being not out to avenge his brother's lost love. Mind you, I bet James M. wasn't exactly broken hearted when he learned Britain would no longer finance Fritz' continuing war. :)
BTW,cahn, it's time for a new post so I can do my 00Diable write up...
BTW,
cahn, it's time for a new post so I can do my 00Diable write up...Edited 2021-03-04 14:29 (UTC)
Mind you, I bet James M. wasn't exactly broken hearted when he learned Britain would no longer finance Fritz' continuing war. :)
Indeed. And it's possible it went something like this:
James M: Yes, yes, Big Bro, cut off that funding!
Lord Bute: Why do you care?
James M: Never mind that.
:P
I was also about to remind her that it was time for a new post. Am excited to hear about the Diable!
Indeed. And it's possible it went something like this:
James M: Yes, yes, Big Bro, cut off that funding!
Lord Bute: Why do you care?
James M: Never mind that.
:P
I was also about to remind her that it was time for a new post. Am excited to hear about the Diable!
MacDonogh gives the escape attempt in some detail, so while I couldn't have given you all the Spaen detail off the top of my head, I did remember him and Ingersleben.
On Spaen:
In the course of the hearing, [Fritz] carelessly implicated Robert [sic!] Keith, Katte and Lieutenant von Spaen. The last two were arrested as a result.
The prince’s friends the subalterns Spaen and Ingersleben were rounded up and thrown into prison. So too was poor Doris Ritter.
[The court martial's] job was to try Frederick, Katte, Ingersleben, Spaen and Lieutenant Keith. The different members of the court martial delivered their verdicts according to rank on 27 and 28 October. Ingersleben’s offence of running between Frederick and Doris Ritter was considered minor. Suggestions for Ingersleben’s punishment ranged from six weeks’ confinement to quarters (major-generals) to six months’ fortress detention (majors and colonels). Spaen was privy to certain secrets. He merited a stiffer sentence: to be dismissed from his regiment and incarcerated for anything up to six years.
Peter Keith had well and truly deserted. Here the verdicts were consistent with Prussian law. In his garrison the drum should be beaten three times. If Keith did not appear, he should be declared ‘unspeakable’, his sword broken, and his image hanged in effigy.
On 1 November the king wrote from Wusterhausen to confirm the court’s sentences on Spaen and Keith, and pardoned Ingersleben. Others who had simply been close to Frederick were banished: the prince’s librarian Jacques, and the brother and sister von Bülow, who had been friends of Frederick. Duhan de Jandun was exiled to Memel. The Freiherr von Montolieu, who had lent Frederick money, wisely fled before he was asked.
Selena wonders:
So, Spaen - did he exaggarate the degree of his involvement and/or friendship with pre-escape Fritz? I mean, if he got one year of Spandau anyway, he could have dealt with it better by reshaping his relatonship with the Crown Prince to one where he was an intimate friend on the same level as Katte and Keith, he just chose not to come along.
Well, if he said or implied he was on the same level as Keith, I'm going to guess he was exaggerating, based partly on the fact that Wilhelmine didn't see him as a threat! And based partly on the fact that he doesn't seem to have been nearly as involved in the escape as Katte and Keith.
On Spaen:
In the course of the hearing, [Fritz] carelessly implicated Robert [sic!] Keith, Katte and Lieutenant von Spaen. The last two were arrested as a result.
The prince’s friends the subalterns Spaen and Ingersleben were rounded up and thrown into prison. So too was poor Doris Ritter.
[The court martial's] job was to try Frederick, Katte, Ingersleben, Spaen and Lieutenant Keith. The different members of the court martial delivered their verdicts according to rank on 27 and 28 October. Ingersleben’s offence of running between Frederick and Doris Ritter was considered minor. Suggestions for Ingersleben’s punishment ranged from six weeks’ confinement to quarters (major-generals) to six months’ fortress detention (majors and colonels). Spaen was privy to certain secrets. He merited a stiffer sentence: to be dismissed from his regiment and incarcerated for anything up to six years.
Peter Keith had well and truly deserted. Here the verdicts were consistent with Prussian law. In his garrison the drum should be beaten three times. If Keith did not appear, he should be declared ‘unspeakable’, his sword broken, and his image hanged in effigy.
On 1 November the king wrote from Wusterhausen to confirm the court’s sentences on Spaen and Keith, and pardoned Ingersleben. Others who had simply been close to Frederick were banished: the prince’s librarian Jacques, and the brother and sister von Bülow, who had been friends of Frederick. Duhan de Jandun was exiled to Memel. The Freiherr von Montolieu, who had lent Frederick money, wisely fled before he was asked.
Selena wonders:
So, Spaen - did he exaggarate the degree of his involvement and/or friendship with pre-escape Fritz? I mean, if he got one year of Spandau anyway, he could have dealt with it better by reshaping his relatonship with the Crown Prince to one where he was an intimate friend on the same level as Katte and Keith, he just chose not to come along.
Well, if he said or implied he was on the same level as Keith, I'm going to guess he was exaggerating, based partly on the fact that Wilhelmine didn't see him as a threat! And based partly on the fact that he doesn't seem to have been nearly as involved in the escape as Katte and Keith.
Librarian report: I forgot to mention that I put the volume containing Neumann's refutation in the library last night, under "Journals". And I've now moved Zimmermann over to the anecdote collections section for ease of finding. Sorry for all the shuffling around lately, but we've been turning up a lot of good sources!
Thus makes misrememberance Zimmermanns of us all. :)
Have some more Goethe about Voltaire's trashy tell-all quotes, because unique among Fritzian fanboys of the era (and despite some criticism, he did remain impressed), he really dug those memoirs:
Zum Schrecken aller Wohlgesinnten geht die Rede als sollten die Memoires des Voltaire, von denen ich schrieb, gedruckt werden, mir macht es ein großes Vergnügen, damit du sie lesen kannst. Ich soll eines der ersten Exemplare erhalten, und ich schicke es dr gleich. Du wirst finden, es ist als wenn ein Gott (etwa Momus), aber eine Canaille von einem Gott, über einen König und über das Hohe der Welt schriebe. Dies ist überhaupt der Character aller Voltaireischen Witz Produkte, kein Funke Mitgefühl, und Honettät. Dagegen eine Leichtigkeit, Höhe des Geistes, Sicherheit, die Entzücken. Ich sage Höhe des Geistes, nicht Hoheit. Man kann ihn einem Luftballon vergleichen, der sich durch eine eigne Luftart über alles weg schwingt, und da Flächen unter sich sieht, wo wir Berge sehn.
And when he did have the printed edition to send her:
Ich will einen Boten abesenden, damit ich gewiß weiß, daß mein Paket bald in deine Hände kommt. Unendlich werden dich die Memoires unterhalten. Uns anderen, die zum Erbteil keine politische Macht erhalten haben, die nicht geschaffen sind, um Reichtümer zu erwerben, ist nicht willkommener als was die Gewalt des Geistes ausbreitet und befestigt. Nun schweig ich auch ganz stille von dem Büchlein, um zu hören, was andre drüber sagen. Wenn du es gelesen, schick es doch gleich an Herder mit der Bitte, es noch geheim zu halten.
Bear in mind here that Goethe, Charlotte von Stein and Herder all live in the duchy of Fritz' grand nephew Carl August. "Eine Canaille von einem Gott" is my new favourite contemporary Voltaire description.
Have some more Goethe about Voltaire's trashy tell-all quotes, because unique among Fritzian fanboys of the era (and despite some criticism, he did remain impressed), he really dug those memoirs:
Zum Schrecken aller Wohlgesinnten geht die Rede als sollten die Memoires des Voltaire, von denen ich schrieb, gedruckt werden, mir macht es ein großes Vergnügen, damit du sie lesen kannst. Ich soll eines der ersten Exemplare erhalten, und ich schicke es dr gleich. Du wirst finden, es ist als wenn ein Gott (etwa Momus), aber eine Canaille von einem Gott, über einen König und über das Hohe der Welt schriebe. Dies ist überhaupt der Character aller Voltaireischen Witz Produkte, kein Funke Mitgefühl, und Honettät. Dagegen eine Leichtigkeit, Höhe des Geistes, Sicherheit, die Entzücken. Ich sage Höhe des Geistes, nicht Hoheit. Man kann ihn einem Luftballon vergleichen, der sich durch eine eigne Luftart über alles weg schwingt, und da Flächen unter sich sieht, wo wir Berge sehn.
And when he did have the printed edition to send her:
Ich will einen Boten abesenden, damit ich gewiß weiß, daß mein Paket bald in deine Hände kommt. Unendlich werden dich die Memoires unterhalten. Uns anderen, die zum Erbteil keine politische Macht erhalten haben, die nicht geschaffen sind, um Reichtümer zu erwerben, ist nicht willkommener als was die Gewalt des Geistes ausbreitet und befestigt. Nun schweig ich auch ganz stille von dem Büchlein, um zu hören, was andre drüber sagen. Wenn du es gelesen, schick es doch gleich an Herder mit der Bitte, es noch geheim zu halten.
Bear in mind here that Goethe, Charlotte von Stein and Herder all live in the duchy of Fritz' grand nephew Carl August. "Eine Canaille von einem Gott" is my new favourite contemporary Voltaire description.
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