cahn | Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 22 (or: Yuletide 2020 edition)

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Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 22 (or: Yuletide 2020 edition)

ETA: Whoops, I missed my cue -- this might as well be the next discussion post, I guess! :)

This is about the fic I didn't author (I have another reveals post for the fics I did author).

So my goal this Yuletide was NOT to write any historical fandom (because hard!) and just enjoy the excellent stuff that other people wrote. And... that sort of happened? I didn't end up authoring anything history-intensive? Buuuuut I ended up spending a lot more time than I did on any of my own fics working with

mildred_of_midgard on her fic, which she was worried about being able to pull off because she had had this completely insane idea to write a long casefic about Frederick the Great that every time I turned around had another twist put in :P :) She supplied me with what we called a "rough opal in matrix" bus pass casefic, and I cut away the matrix that remained and in some cases carved the opal -- that is to say, writing additional text for some of the scenes, what we liked to call "putting in feels," and in at least two cases entirely rewriting and/or restructuring the scene she'd written. She didn't always keep what I wrote (which we'd agreed upon in the beginning), but when she did (which was most of the time :) ) she then went in and rewrote/restructured what I put in to wordsmith (some of the words I gave her were really rough) and match her style, adding even more scenes -- that is, polishing it up and adding some gold and diamonds -- and voila, a beautiful pendant, I mean, story :)

I'm really proud of it and also it was really fun and also what I could handle this year, especially because mildred did all the parts I thought were hard and also wrote all the parts involving actual history or subtle AU before I was brought in so I didn't actually have to know historical stuff (though I guess I will never forget the battle of Leuthen now), and took full responsibility for how the whole thing turned out, so all I had to do was be like "Here, I'll write some rough feels for you for this scene!" The funny part was that I would often then write a paragraph justifying why I *had* to write the scene the way I did, and more likely than not mildred would be like, "yeah, I was sure you would do that, of course it should be written like that." (The most glaring example of this was where I inserted the Letter of Doom at the climax. I was worried there was some reason she didn't want it there, but she said, no, she just didn't have time to put it in herself and was just trusting me to do that :) ) She started jokingly calling me her "other self," to which I replied that it was with 1000% less angst and frustration -- as Frederick the Great's brother was his "other self" (which actually comes up in the fic) that he could trust to do all kinds of competent things, but they had a relationship that was, um, fraught? radioactive? Whereas this was just fun :)

Mildred did so much more than I did (we estimated a 90%/10% word ratio, not even counting the part where she wordsmithed a lot of my text) that I felt very uncomfortable being listed as a co-author, but hey, ~3000 words is a respectable Yuletide fic length :)

Yet They Grind Exceedingly Small (30384 words) by mildred_of_midgard
Chapters: 5/5
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF, Historical RPF
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: Major Character Death
Relationships: Anna Amalie von Preußen & Wilhelmine von Preußen, Anna Amalie von Preußen & Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen, Wilhelmine von Preußen & Elisabeth Friederike Sophie von Brandenburg-Bayreuth, Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great & Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia
Characters: Anna Amalie von Preußen (1723-1787), Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758), Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802), Elisabeth Friederike Sophie von Brandenburg-Bayreuth (1732-1780), Wilhelmine von Hesse-Kassel (1726-1808), August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758), Alcmene 1 | Frederick the Great's Italian Greyhound, Voltaire (Writer), Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Additional Tags: Alternate Universe - Canon Divergence, Dysfunctional Family, Suicide, Alternate Universe - Dark, Siblings, Canon-Typical Violence, Mystery, Tide of History Challenge
Summary:

January 1758. Prince William is dead, some say of a broken heart. Frederick wants to absolve himself of blame for William's death. Henry schemes to end the Third Silesian War on his terms. Amalie and Wilhelmine team up to find out what really happened to their brother. Alcmene just wants to be told she's a good dog.

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Okay, here I am!

This is quite an interesting mystery. Many clues, and I'm not sure how to put them together.

The first thing that came to mind when I saw the date was EC, which I see you guys discussed. FW is on him about the succession, and he's going to have to move in with her soon. That said, on further reading, I join you in rejecting this hypothesis. Not only does it not fit the further clues he drops, but I don't think he would hesitate to confide in Wilhelmine. If he couldn't say, "I'm really afraid I'm going to have to start sleeping with her regularly or she's going to tell on me to Dad," he could at least bitch about having to move in with her, and vent that way. And he seems to have had no trouble saying "I can't sleep with my wife out of passion" to other people, so...I agree with

selenak that I don't think that's it.

That said, if anyone is planning on writing 1736 fanfic, fear of having to sleep with her regularly might be something preying on his mind. ;)

So, putting the clues I have together:

- It primarily concerns someone else.
- He's worried about one of his friends.
- He's afraid of being told not to worry so much.
- It doesn't come from the heart.

The last one doesn't seem to fit with the other three. I'm not sure what to make of that. Like you guys, my first reaction was Gröben and the STD! But Gröben's gambling debts make at least as much sense, maybe more. We know that Fritz was lending/giving money to his friends during these years, that was one reason he was pumping everyone he knew for money. (Or at least that's what he claimed, but I believe it.)

If it were just his own debts, he would say so and ask for money, but someone else's debts and general poor life choices might worry him.

Alternately, given what we know about Fritz's tendency to be very distressed when his loved ones are sick, it could be that. Now, normally he would just say so. But there are at least two people he might worry about that he couldn't necessarily say he was worried about.

- Duhan, who he's not supposed to be in contact with, and who's apparently struggling with depression in the 1730s.
- Fredersdorf, whom he's not supposed to have feelings for.

Now, he seems to have secure lines of communication with Wilhelmine, and she certainly respects the heck out of Duhan, so I *think* Fritz would have said he was worried about Duhan if that were it.

Could Fredersdorf be sick? And Fritz is worried about him (especially if Fritz is in Berlin and Fredersdorf had to stay in Ruppin, but even if not), and he can't admit it, because people are going to be like, "He's a valet. You can get another one." And he can't go, "HE'S MY ~~BOYFRIEND~~ LIFE PARTNER!"

You know, while a friend's gambling debts or another form of trouble a friend could have gotten into could be it, my current headcanon is Fredersdorf being seriously sick.

The only thing that doesn't fit is "it comes not from my heart but from another part," but I can't quite figure that line out at all.

Given that he's building Rheinsberg around the time, and that he has the vague "morality beyond my reach" line in his letter to Camas, Wilhelmine's guess might be it?

Okay, so, based on my reading of Fritz's correspondence, where this theme crops up over and over again, I'm 99% sure "morality" is referring to Stoicism here. He's afraid of being told to take a stiff upper lip stance, accept that bad things happen, and console himself with philosophy.

It goes with:

as regards my sorrow, I do not feel any decrease. I speak to myself, I reason, I moralize; but I feel that temperament still has the upper hand over reason. In the end, dear Camas, that of adversity is a hard school; I was, so to speak, born and brought up in it; it takes away a lot from the world, it shows the vanity of the objects it presents to us, their lack of solidity, and the inconstancy that the revolution of time brings with it.

And he's saying he loves his friends too much to be indifferent to their sorrows, so please don't tell him to be a good Stoic.

Which. Fritz. Is what he *always* says when he's worried or grieving someone, and then the moment someone *else* is worried or grieving, he writes a condolence letter going, "I know from experience that philosophy is basically useless at a time like this, but remember your philosophy!"

This is Fontane on Fritz when Henricus Minor (our term for AW's son Heinrich, to distinguish him from birthday boy Heinrich) dies:

Rittmeister von Wödtke brought the sad news to the king. The King was moved to a rare degree. One of the high officers comforted the king and urged him to calm himself. "He ["er" of direct address] is right," Fritz answered, "but he doesn't feel the pain that this loss has caused me." "Yes, Your Majesty, I feel it; he was the most promising of princes." The King shook his head and said, "He has the pain on his tongue, I have it here." And so saying, he laid his hand on his heart.

But when Duhan's father dies, this is one of Fritz's better condolence letters:

It is certain that the most severe tests, which we are obliged to pass in this world, are when we lose people forever who are dear to us. Constancy, steadfastness, and reason seem little help to us in these sad circumstances, and we only listen to our pain in these moments. I feel sorry for you with all my heart, seeing you in such a situation. [...] What is more common than being born and dying? However, we are always astonished at death, as if it were something foreign to us, and uncommon.

Console yourself, my dear Duhan, as best you can. Consider that there is a necessity which determines all events, and that it is impossible to fight what is resolved. We only make ourselves unhappy, without changing anything in our condition, and we spread bitterness over the happiest days of our life, the brevity of which should invite us not to grieve so much with unhappiness.

The struggle between reason and philosophy on the one hand, and compassion and grief on the other, tormented Fritz for his entire life. When Biche died, he wrote to Wilhelmine along the lines of, "I know a good philosopher wouldn't be this torn up over a dog, and I'm kind of embarrassed. But I don't want to be the kind of person who wouldn't be torn up over losing their favorite dog! Dogs are worthy of love and grief!! *sob*"

I worked this into my fic when he loses his dogs, and he's *trying* to be philosophical, and he can't fully.

The fact that this is consistently his discourse when it comes to death makes me think that in January 1736 someone is worryingly sick and he can't talk about it. Which makes me think of Fredersdorf. But I'm not ruling out other people's STDs or gambling debts either!

Confiding in Pöllnitz, really, Fritz? You know better.

Well, there's confiding and there's confiding. There's a decent chance Fritz, who is pretty cynical and suspicious by this age, is playing an intrigue game.

Oh, also, speaking of 1736 fanfic and the relationship between Fritz and FW being on the downswing in January 1736, by May 2, FW is all "There stands one who will avenge me!" (which is admittedly more motivated by politics than Fritz being on his good side). For all that the Rheinsberg years were the "happy" ones, the constant whiplash was a huge stressor on Fritz.

Edited 2021-01-18 18:01 (UTC)

- It doesn't come from the heart.

Okay, so. This one isn't quite as clear as it seems in English I think. I left the google translation as it was, because it was one possible version, but the original French goes as follows: Avec cela, j'ai une juste cause d'affliction, qui m'est sensible jusqu'au fond du cœur; elle ne vient point d'ici, mais d'autre part; - the "not from the heart" is one possible interpretation of the "d'ici" phrase I'd say, but you don't have to read it that way, because "ici" can mean a lot of things and it's unclear if it's actually related to "coeur". He could even be talking geography and saying his affliction doesn't come from Berlin but from somewhere else! Which would fit your theory.

Okay, so, based on my reading of Fritz's correspondence, where this theme crops up over and over again, I'm 99% sure he's referring to Stoicism here.

Ohhhh. Nice. I definitely read his "moralize" in the second letter that way, but because he also has the heroism part in the first letter - which I took to mean just that, stoically withstanding things - I took the "morality" part more literally in that case, precisely because he's being so cryptic and seems worried that Camas might disapprove - and "worried for a sick friend" seems like something that Camas wouldn't object to or even fail to understand and sympathize with, unless the source of the illness is the problem - or the identity of the friend, as per your theory. Hmmm.

Yeah, I had gone and looked at the French for "doesn't come from there, but from another part," and I concluded I have no idea what he's talking about. I wonder if it's time to grab my native speaker friend for consulting services again.

And yes, the "either morality or heroism" gave me pause for the reason you mention, but I *think* I would still take it as referring to Stoicism rather than conventional morality, just because it's such a common trope in Fritz's letters. And redundancy in the form of parallel clauses is a stylistic device in both the Bible and Roman literature (Cicero is *all over* it), and all their imitators since. Your interpretation isn't impossible, though!

This is definitely a crux.

I think this take on "morality" is definitely in keeping with Fritz' use of it, not to mention that it would make sense for him to pick one concept that's more philosophy-based (morality) and one that's more military-based (heroism) to express a similar thought. (The combination of both sides is what drove Voltaire nuts after all. ;))

"worried for a sick friend" seems like something that Camas wouldn't object to or even fail to understand and sympathize with, unless the source of the illness is the problem - or the identity of the friend, as per your theory. Hmmm.

I could believe both, except that I think Fritz could pass off being worried for Fredersdorf being sick to Camas as being a good feudal lord concerned for a faithful servant, so I'm still betting on Gröben and a combination of STD and gambling debts. Not least because I don't think Fredersdorf's health problems had kicked in yet, though I could be wrong about this. Of course we don't have letters between him and Fritz from that era. And the thing is, by the later 1730s, Fritz definitely wasn't hiding that Fredersdorf wasn't an exchangeable servant to him; see Bielfeld's description of Fredersdorf as: The Prince's first valet, Herr Fredersdorf, is a tall, beautiful man, who has wit and intelligence. He's polite, attentive, skillful, smooth, likes his possessions but still likes splendour. I believe he'll play a large role one day. And if Bielfeld had noticed, Camas probably had as well.

Now with Wilhelmine, both a sick Fredersdorf and an STD and gambling debts ridden Gröben would be reasons to be cryptic - whereas simply accumulating more and more debts would not be - so that's not a tell in either direction.

Lastly: there's the way STD keeps coming up, both as a rumor about Fritz in his younger days (so established and wide spread that a visiting tourist like Boswell hears about it in 1764), and by Fritz himself when wanting do make a dig at others. In one of those poems mocking the rest of Europe which Voltaire wasn't supposed to take along, he's accusing Louis XV. to have it, for example; but more interestingly, there's the way he uses it in the Marwitz letters to Heinrich, completely out of the blue. I mean, he goes from mocking Heinrich and Marwitz for pining to saying "oh, and btw, that guy is a total slut with STD!" Given the way Fritz used Heinrich to play out his own life again with reversed roles, this makes me suspect he had at some point crushed on someone who turned out to have STD. (Could have been Algarotti, of course, except that his reaction to Algarotti having STD is so very blasé.)

I'm not wedded to the "Fredersdorf is sick" hypothesis, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

I could believe both, except that I think Fritz could pass off being worried for Fredersdorf being sick to Camas as being a good feudal lord concerned for a faithful servant

Worried, yes. Making sure Fredersdorf is taken care of, sure. Having stress-related illness, that's as bad as colic, because of it? I suspect the reaction would be similar to this one letter I saw, probably in the Fairchilds servants book: a noble teenage boy, maybe about 14 years old, has just had his tutor/governor/whatever taken away. Several months later, he writes to his father, begging for his tutor back, because he can't be happy without him. The boy is clearly having stress-related illness and depression from the separation from the guy who'd been parenting him for the last several years. The father writes an uncomprehending letter back that the son's filial regard for his tutor does them both honor, but it's time to move on.

I suspect losing sleep over your valet falls into the same category. You were the one who said Fritz couldn't write to anyone about Fredersdorf's death even after the guy had publicly been first minister for 15 years and Lehndorff was calling him the Prussian Pompadour, because Fritz didn't have a vocabulary for how much Fredersdorf had meant to him! Fredersdorf also never seems to have come up in the Fritz/Wilhelmine letters, granted that the complete correspondence hasn't been published.

Not least because I don't think Fredersdorf's health problems had kicked in yet, though I could be wrong about this.

They don't need to have; it's the 18th century. Do we know when Fredersdorf had smallpox? Or any number of other infectious diseases?

And the thing is, by the later 1730s, Fritz definitely wasn't hiding that Fredersdorf wasn't an exchangeable servant to him; see Bielfeld's description of Fredersdorf

I would be very surprised if Fritz wasn't trying to keep it at least partly on the down low as long as FW was alive. Bielfeld lived at Rheinsberg, and I have definitely read, though I forget where now, that many or all of his letters were composed later in life. That's why when I reported him writing in 1740 that Fritz would someday be called great, I said I didn't know if that was written with the benefit of hindsight.

Okay, Carlyle definitely says the letters were not sent through the post office but were written after the fact. I don't know if a more reliable source says that or if modern scholarship has weighed in. But given what some of the people in our fandom have gotten up to, Bielfeld's letters could be anywhere from Catt-like self-insert fanfic, to Lady Mary redacting her letters for publication by removing repetition and creating a narrative. I just don't know.

But I wouldn't put somebody who authored and sold a book of his own letters in his own lifetime, in 1763 to boot, i.e. right after Fritz had won the Seven Years' War and this book was guaranteed to sell, up there with Preuss collating letters from the Prussian archives after Fritz's death, in terms of evidence that a given passage was written in the year the passage is claimed to have been written.

Even if the Fredersdorf passage is totally genuine, Bielfeld writing in October 1739 (almost the exact time the "rising sun" ceiling was painted), and staying at Rheinsberg and being a Freemason in the Rheinsberg lodge with both Fritz and Fredersdorf (assuming Bielfeld can be trusted on that), is far from the same as Camas corresponding long-distance with Fritz in January 1736, in terms of their respective insights into Fritz's relationship with Fredersdorf.

Now, it could be a friend's STD and/or (the friend's) gambling debts, certainly! Or something else we haven't thought of. But if you're right that Fritz couldn't talk about Fredersdorf's death even after a publicly known relationship that had lasted over 25 years, talking about Fredersdorf's illness after 5 years, when he must have been trying not to let FW catch on, must have been at least as difficult.

Edited 2021-01-24 19:23 (UTC)

a noble teenage boy, maybe about 14 years old, has just had his tutor/governor/whatever taken away. Several months later, he writes to his father, begging for his tutor back, because he can't be happy without him.

Wasn't that in fact future FW4 to FW3, with the governor in question this guy? (Result: yet another dysfunctional authoritarian Hohenzollern on the throne later on. Yay!)

But if you're right that Fritz couldn't talk about Fredersdorf's death even after a publicly known relationship that had lasted over 25 years, talking about Fredersdorf's illness after 5 years, when he must have been trying not to let FW catch on, must have been at least as difficult.

This is undoubtedly true. I also readily concede the possibility/likelihood of Bielfeld doctoring, editing or writing his letters with the benefit of hindsight. However, I'm still too stuck on the "not from the heart, but from another part" phrasing - as surely worrying about Fredersdorf being threateningly ill would have been very much a matter of the heart to Fritz -, and on the fact we don't even know that Fredersdorf was ill to begin with to subscribe to this theory. Doesn't mean I wouldn't read a h/c fanfiction based on it! It would be a great premise for one.

Wasn't that in fact future FW4 to FW3

Since I don't remember where I got that from, if you do, then that's probably the one I'm thinking of!

However, I'm still too stuck on the "not from the heart, but from another part" phrasing

But didn't we decide that was only one possible interpretation of "d'ici"? I'm still trying to consult with more fluent French speakers on the matter (waiting to hear back).

And I'm definitely not asserting that Fredersdorf was sick! As you say, we have no evidence and I'm making this up out of wholecloth. I'm only playing devil's advocate to patch up the holes you're poking. ;)

Hurt/comfort fic sounds great, regardless. :)

1736 events of possible relevance/background to hypothetical fics:

January: Fritz has colic and a mystery affliction.
February 12: MT/FS marriage.
Early March: Pesne paints Fritz, gets the mouth right by telling him to think of Wilhelmine. Fritz, Suhm, and La Chetardie all studying philosophy together.
March 22: Fritz sends salmon to FS.
May 2: "There stands one who will avenge me." (Re not being informed of the MT/FS marriage, as the latest in a string of grievances.)
May 6: Babysitting at Ruppin.
August: Move to Rheinsberg.

Edited 2021-01-26 01:25 (UTC)

However, I'm still too stuck on the "not from the heart, but from another part" phrasing - as surely worrying about Fredersdorf being threateningly ill would have been very much a matter of the heart to Fritz

Okay! A native speaker friend of a friend has weighed in, and her interpretation is that Fritz is saying that, although he feels the pain from the bottom of his heart, it's not his heart *qua biological organ* that's causing the pain, but his mind that's causing his (metaphorical) heart emotional distress.

Which is absolutely consistent with the rest of the letter and makes perfect sense to me. And which does not help us distinguish between Groeben and Fredersdorf. ;)

:) I'm glad we had the native speaker input, but it's just ic for Fritz remain an engigma, isn't it?

Fritz couldn't write to anyone about Fredersdorf's death even after the guy had publicly been first minister for 15 years and Lehndorff was calling him the Prussian Pompadour, because Fritz didn't have a vocabulary for how much Fredersdorf had meant to him

I'd been wondering about the lack of Fredersdorf in Fritz' letters and this is a really fascinating explanation.

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Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 22 (or: Yuletide 2020 edition)

Re: Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736

Re: Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736

Re: Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736

Re: Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736

Re: Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736

Re: Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736

Re: Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736

Re: Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736

Re: Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736

Re: Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736

Re: Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736