cahn: (Default)
cahn ([personal profile] cahn) wrote2021-01-01 10:38 am

Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 22 (or: Yuletide 2020 edition)

ETA: Whoops, I missed my cue -- this might as well be the next discussion post, I guess! :)

This is about the fic I didn't author (I have another reveals post for the fics I did author).

So my goal this Yuletide was NOT to write any historical fandom (because hard!) and just enjoy the excellent stuff that other people wrote. And... that sort of happened? I didn't end up authoring anything history-intensive? Buuuuut I ended up spending a lot more time than I did on any of my own fics working with [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard on her fic, which she was worried about being able to pull off because she had had this completely insane idea to write a long casefic about Frederick the Great that every time I turned around had another twist put in :P :) She supplied me with what we called a "rough opal in matrix" bus pass casefic, and I cut away the matrix that remained and in some cases carved the opal -- that is to say, writing additional text for some of the scenes, what we liked to call "putting in feels," and in at least two cases entirely rewriting and/or restructuring the scene she'd written. She didn't always keep what I wrote (which we'd agreed upon in the beginning), but when she did (which was most of the time :) ) she then went in and rewrote/restructured what I put in to wordsmith (some of the words I gave her were really rough) and match her style, adding even more scenes -- that is, polishing it up and adding some gold and diamonds -- and voila, a beautiful pendant, I mean, story :)

I'm really proud of it and also it was really fun and also what I could handle this year, especially because mildred did all the parts I thought were hard and also wrote all the parts involving actual history or subtle AU before I was brought in so I didn't actually have to know historical stuff (though I guess I will never forget the battle of Leuthen now), and took full responsibility for how the whole thing turned out, so all I had to do was be like "Here, I'll write some rough feels for you for this scene!" The funny part was that I would often then write a paragraph justifying why I *had* to write the scene the way I did, and more likely than not mildred would be like, "yeah, I was sure you would do that, of course it should be written like that." (The most glaring example of this was where I inserted the Letter of Doom at the climax. I was worried there was some reason she didn't want it there, but she said, no, she just didn't have time to put it in herself and was just trusting me to do that :) ) She started jokingly calling me her "other self," to which I replied that it was with 1000% less angst and frustration -- as Frederick the Great's brother was his "other self" (which actually comes up in the fic) that he could trust to do all kinds of competent things, but they had a relationship that was, um, fraught? radioactive? Whereas this was just fun :)

Mildred did so much more than I did (we estimated a 90%/10% word ratio, not even counting the part where she wordsmithed a lot of my text) that I felt very uncomfortable being listed as a co-author, but hey, ~3000 words is a respectable Yuletide fic length :)

Yet They Grind Exceedingly Small (30384 words) by mildred_of_midgard
Chapters: 5/5
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF, Historical RPF
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: Major Character Death
Relationships: Anna Amalie von Preußen & Wilhelmine von Preußen, Anna Amalie von Preußen & Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen, Wilhelmine von Preußen & Elisabeth Friederike Sophie von Brandenburg-Bayreuth, Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great & Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia
Characters: Anna Amalie von Preußen (1723-1787), Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758), Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802), Elisabeth Friederike Sophie von Brandenburg-Bayreuth (1732-1780), Wilhelmine von Hesse-Kassel (1726-1808), August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758), Alcmene 1 | Frederick the Great's Italian Greyhound, Voltaire (Writer), Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Additional Tags: Alternate Universe - Canon Divergence, Dysfunctional Family, Suicide, Alternate Universe - Dark, Siblings, Canon-Typical Violence, Mystery, Tide of History Challenge
Summary:

January 1758. Prince William is dead, some say of a broken heart. Frederick wants to absolve himself of blame for William's death. Henry schemes to end the Third Silesian War on his terms. Amalie and Wilhelmine team up to find out what really happened to their brother. Alcmene just wants to be told she's a good dog.

selenak: (Ellen by Nyuszi)

Re: Katte - A Tragicomedy (the first half)

[personal profile] selenak 2021-01-06 01:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Be fair - the Jonathan comparison is primary source canon, and it’s the Küstrin garnison preacher who first made it! (In that description where Katte is looking for Fritz “his Jonathon”, which also makes FW Saul.) (Same preacher who reassures Hans Heinrich that his son is now with the angels before God’s throne, etc.)

(This said, no budding Nazi writer in 1914 can claim innocence to the Jonathan comparison, especially if he’s going to all this trouble to hook up Katte with Michal, err, Wilhelmine.)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Katte - A Tragicomedy (the first half)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-01-06 01:38 pm (UTC)(link)
I know! I recognized it immediately and knew the source! (After all the time we spent on the Katte execution sources, I'd better.) It's the "Bruder" part I was questioning. I don't remember that, do you? :P
selenak: (Wilhelmine)

Re: Katte - A Tragicomedy (the first half)

[personal profile] selenak 2021-01-06 04:39 pm (UTC)(link)
This is hysterical, from the expressionist exclamations and repeats onwards. Thank you so much for summing it up for us! I think my favourite detail is Katte adressing Fritz as "Herr Oberst". (Which, okay, was his rank in the army at the time, but seriously, Königliche Hoheit/Mein Prinz or nothing.)

Trying for some semiserious comments on what sounds like a terrible play: Katte being that loyal to FW makes me wonder whether Burte was a fan of not even Schiller's, but Verdi's Don Carlos. (Not Schiller's because Schiller's Posa feels a bit sorry for Philip at best, but well, he starts the play conspiring for Dutch freedom, so "should I be loyal to my King or my crown prince?" never is an issue.) Otoh "how do I get my son to love me?/Why doesn't my son love me?" is actually not that inaccurate for FW as such (not as a question to Katte, for his attitude, I mean). We're talking about the man who wrote instructions to little Fritz' educators that they were never to threaten him with FW's anger, only with the Queen's, because he wanted to be loved, not feared by his son, and who according to the Braunschweig envoy loved shopping for Christmas treats himself to give his smaller kids. He just was utterly and completely unable to make a connection between behaving like a tyrant at any sign Fritz wasn't a little replica liking the exact same things FW did, and being feared.

Anyway, as it's impossible to be a German playwright and not to have read your Schiller, I do think making FW seek out Katte as a confidant was probably some backwards projecting of the Philip-Posa-Carlos constellation on FW-Katte-Fritz on Burte's part.
selenak: (Ray and Shaz by Kathyh)

Re: Another monarch who didn't like ballet

[personal profile] selenak 2021-01-06 06:08 pm (UTC)(link)
I saw it on stage, actually, the very first time I visited NYC, as a fourteen years old kid participating in a students exchange program. (Which included one week in New York, and a musical on Broadway. Yay!)
prinzsorgenfrei: (Default)

Re: Katte - A Tragicomedy (the first half)

[personal profile] prinzsorgenfrei 2021-01-06 08:43 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm glad you're having fun with this so far :D

"Herr Oberst" only appears this one time in direct response to Fritz switching from "du" to "Herr Leutnant" in order to get Katte to desert the army by citing his higher rank... in the army, which is an interesting approach (direct quote following this exchange: "Ich befehle, als Vorgesetzter!"). Usually it's "du" from both of them in act 1 and Fritz in act 5 with one "königliche Hoheit" used when talking about the whole marriage thing and one "mein Prinz" in act 5.

I did recognize FW's whole "love me"-thing (he says it to Fritz himself too during the whole "will Wilhelmine become a nun" conversation that I did not write much about), I just thought the mental image of him telling Katte of all people was a bit strange. So far, Burte has not really managed to back up the claim that FW is actually the sweetest person (deep deep inside) beyond Katte telling the audience/Wilhelmine that he is, so it feels a little unwarranted from a "theatrical" point of view...? Especially because Burte usually loves exposition dumping. FW gets more stage time in acts 3 and 4 and I did not read everything too closely on my first read through, so I might find something yet.

Now I regret not having read Don Carlos, that might have been interesting for comparison :'D I'll have to look for a Katte play closer to Faust or Die Räuber
felis: (House renfair)

Re: Heinrich's Lookbook - caricature

[personal profile] felis 2021-01-07 04:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Regarding the caricature, it seems like it was one of fifteen (all different people), see this article published in the Hohenzollern Yearbook 1901, particularly page four, which has Fritz in the middle, Ferdinand to his lower right (standing on his toes, ha), and apparently George Keith in the upper right corner (I really like this one). Don't know any of the others (see pages 3 and 7 for the names).
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Heinrich's Lookbook - caricature

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-01-07 05:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Awesome find! The Hohenzollern Yearbook is on my list for when I can read German properly, it seems to have a lot of goodies.

The Borckes and Lentulus I recognize, and Pirch is probably related to our Carel--his father was a Georg Ernst, and this is a Georg Ludwig, so could be a different branch. Selena may know more!

Back to work so I can do German later...
selenak: (Goethe/Schiller - Shezan)

Re: Don Carlo and Katte - A Tragicomedy (the first half)

[personal profile] selenak 2021-01-08 10:22 am (UTC)(link)
You know, your title makes me imagine a crack crossover or fusion...

Katte in Rodrigo's place: does not go through all the complicated plotting and actually tells Carlos what's going on, but otoh utterly bungles the interlude with impressing Philipp in the first place, because Katte is trained to never talk back to the autocrat. So no Sire, geben Sie Gedankenfreiheit!" speech. At best, it's "look, Alba and Domingo are plotting to marry your son to A PROTESTANT PRINCESS, him wanting to flee is just to avoid this!"

Rodrigo, in Katte's place: When Fritz first suggests running away in Zeithain, doesn't try to dissuade him but starts a super complicated scheme where he reports to FW about Fritz' debts (i.e. the minor, forgivable misdemeanour), thus making FW trust him and charge him with escorting the Crown Prince back to Berlin. This would have put Rodrigo in the ideal position to escape with Fritz before anyone notices, but alas, he's forgotten to tell Fritz this was the plan, so Fritz, finding out Rodrigo ratted him out about the debts, heartbrokenly confides in a Potsdam Giant. (Look, it's hard to find an equivalent to Eboli!) Disaster ensues...

BTW, I just looked, and Amazon US does offer a Schiller Don Carlos production on DVD, pretty expensive (as in 40 plus Euro), but it doesn't say whether it's regionally locked, which I expect, alas, to be the case (otherwise surely they'd advertise it being playable in the US as a plus?)
felis: (House renfair)

Re: Heinrich's Lookbook - caricature

[personal profile] felis 2021-01-08 07:13 pm (UTC)(link)
The Hohenzollern Yearbook is on my list for when I can read German properly, it seems to have a lot of goodies.

Possibly, yeah. A couple of the titles I skimmed sound interesting. I ended up there a couple of weeks ago because I was looking for this Koser article from 1897, which collects quotes about Fritz' looks (you know, priorities and all that), most of which I'd also read elsewhere (not least thanks to you guys).

It also has this little 1780s anecdote about Heinrich, witnessed and later written down by a young Marwitz boy (born 1777): As we were going up the great staircase, a little old man came running past us with fixed eyes and jumped down the stairs in arcs. My court master called out in astonishment: "That was Prince Heinrich!" We now stepped into the window on the first floor and looked to see what could induce the little man to use such arcs. And, lo and behold, the king came to visit him.
I was most impressed because Heinrich wasn't exactly the youngest at that point, either. ;)

--

Finally, in case of interest, I posted a couple of winter pictures of the Sanssouci grounds in my journal earlier, all from years ago. Kind of anachronistic, since I don't think anybody lived in the two palaces during winter time (?), but still, some views of the snowy grounds. Although sadly, I didn't actually take one of Sanssouci itself that time, no idea why (possibly too many people milling about).
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Gröben; Bielfeld; Strasbourg

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-01-09 04:01 pm (UTC)(link)
[personal profile] felis, I'm so sorry I was heads-down on my ridiculously long Yuletide fic when you turned up the Gröben letters and I wasn't able to comment! What a great detective job. You would make Amalie, Fredersdorf, and Wilhelmine proud. :D

I agree whole-heartedly with Selena's comment that this is locker room talk (the exact phrase I thought of even before she wrote that) and not proof of a sexual relationship. However, I see that Gröben made into in "Time-Travelling Valet" as our culprit for Fritz's alleged STD in the late 1730s/early 1740s , which I thought was hilarious. :D And entirely possible!

Hypothesis/wanton speculation: The reason Fritz isn't upset when he learns Algarotti has an STD in late 1740 isn't because their relationship is purely platonic (and thus he's neither upset that they have to stop having sex nor worried that he got an STD from Algarotti), but because they *have* been having sex, and Fritz is where Algarotti got the STD from. :P

[personal profile] selenak: Fritz uses "petit-maitre" for "fop". Which stood out to me because that's what FW keeps calling him in his rants, including in the August 1731 submission protocol.

What this reminded me of was Bielfeld's "hot or not" report on Fritz from 1738, where he writes, "A petit maître of Paris would not perhaps admire his frisure; his hair however is of a bright brown, carelessly curled, but well adapted to his countenance."

Speaking of Bielfeld, if anyone is thinking of writing the Strasbourg episode that I didn't write for Yuletide, or otherwise just curious, I noticed while hunting for the petit-maître passage that Bielfeld writes a several-page account with numerous trivial details of interest to fanfiction writers. One minor detail he leaves out is the arrest/detainment. :P Which makes sense if he had his account from his friend Fritz.

I enjoyed his opening line: I much doubt if [Fritz] will ever obtain the title of Saint, but I am certain he will deserve that of Great, if Providence shall prolong his days.

Now, this letter is dated to September 2, 1740, but I have read that this is a collection of material that mixes real letters with material written after the fact and framed as letters, so that line may have been written with the benefit of hindsight, I don't know.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Voltaire, Fritz, and statues

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-01-09 04:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Way back in November (I am so behind, omg), [personal profile] selenak made a post on her personal blog about nude statues, and naturally Voltaire's came up.

To which I wrote: Also, I still want to know why Fritz didn't want it. We know he liked nude statues of, or at least, symbolically representing, his boyfriends! Total missed opportunity there. :P

He did at least get a copy of the bust, iirc.


[personal profile] selenak replied: Well, if Orieux is right he never unpacked the bust because he was pissed off about the memoirs, so not wanting the statue might have had a similar reason. Except that the memoirs were only published in 1784, so that wouldn't explain why Fritz didn't aquire the statue previously.

I've been meaning to reply and now finally am here to say that I misremembered slightly: the bust in question was not from Voltaire/Voltaire's people to Fritz, but vice versa. Quoting MacDonogh:

Three years later [so in 1775] KPM was issuing busts of Voltaire, ‘which resemble you in the old days, perhaps even now’, said Frederick. Voltaire peevishly acknowledged the gift of an ‘old man in porcelain’. The king thought it a very good likeness and told d’Alembert it lacked only the power to speak. He recommended that the best effects could be had by reciting the Henriade to it and watching it at the same time.

I absolutely love this image. Oh, Fritz, you never got over your ex, did you? :D

Continuing with the theme of their contentious relationship and its give-and-take:

Voltaire wanted revenge in the form of a Frederick, but the king of Prussia still adhered to his policy of keeping portrait painters at arm’s length, deeming them as adept at flattery as the most refined courtiers. He allowed Anna Dorothea Therbusch, however, to make the familiar bust of him that served as the KPM’s model, injecting a little youthful grace into his raddled face. Voltaire received one in good time. Frederick decided that the bust would be more likely to ‘ruin an apartment than to decorate it’. The king joked that the sculptress had refused to clothe him in the garb of an anchorite.

Never change, Voltaire and Fritz.

KPM is the Königliche Porzellan Manufaktur, or the porcelain factory that Fritz founded after the Seven Years' War.

(I'm still on partial salon hiatus, but have a little more time today, especially as sciatica is interfering with German studies. I mean, in theory I *can* study German at the computer, but it's too easy to get distracted. As you can see. :P)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Heinrich's Lookbook - caricature

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-01-09 04:35 pm (UTC)(link)
Sanssouci pictures are always of interest to me, whatever the season! I envy you getting to visit it in different seasons. Where do you live, may I ask?

Also, yes, as far as I know, it was only Fritz's palace from April/May to the beginning of October, but I still love seeing it. If only because I have an abundance of fanfic in my head that isn't tied to canon. :P Next time you go in winter, I would like to commission a picture of the palace itself, no matter how many people are milling about! :D
felis: (House renfair)

Re: Heinrich's Lookbook - caricature

[personal profile] felis 2021-01-09 05:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, I just added one more for you - it's a scan of an analog picture and has less snow (if more cold, which you can't really see except for the frozen pond), but it does have a parterre view of the castle in winter.
selenak: (Voltaire)

Re: Voltaire, Fritz, and statues

[personal profile] selenak 2021-01-09 05:27 pm (UTC)(link)
There is still a copy of that Voltaire porcellain bust at Sanssouci!

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50223805283_7efb0902d5_m.jpg

Today, it's in the "Voltaire Room", of course. Missing someone reciting the Henriade to it. That really is a wonderful and so telling story.

Tiny correction of KPM - while it's true it didn't exist under that name yet, which was only provided by Fritz post war - it did exist in its earlier form as the Wegely'sche Manufaktur, which was founded in 1751, then sold from Wegely to Gotzkowsky in 1757 because SOMEONE suddenly had access to all the Saxon porcellain they could want and Wegely, to whom Fritz had been his primary patron, promptly went broke. Gotzkowsky kept it going until 1763, and then Fritz bought the factory and renamed it.

(I had to look this up last year at the KPM website because reasons.)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Heinrich's Lookbook - caricature

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-01-09 05:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Aww, thank you! We get to commission photographs from you and drawings from [personal profile] prinzsorgenfrei now, this is so amazing. <3
felis: (clara and twelve)

Re: Voltaire, Fritz, and statues

[personal profile] felis 2021-01-09 05:32 pm (UTC)(link)
He recommended that the best effects could be had by reciting the Henriade to it and watching it at the same time.

Well, that's. Something. Amazing. <3
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Voltaire, Fritz, and statues

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-01-09 05:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Today, it's in the "Voltaire Room", of course. Missing someone reciting the Henriade to it. That really is a wonderful and so telling story.

It *is*. Next time I go there, I will imagine Fritz reciting to it, with a complicated expression on his own face. "I miss you, you bastard!"

KPM: Yes, you're correct; I was oversimplifying, which I should not do in salon. :) Especially given how if I catch anyone else oversimplifying, I am *right there*. :P

Speaking of Fritz and businesses he owns, I missed my chance to match off HRE in my corporate AU with KPM. :P I was actually imagining Fritz not as the founder (because FW--whom I may have to split into previous CEO and abusive father, who are two different people in this modern AU) but as the new CEO who rebranded the company under a name he liked better when he took over, which is pretty much what historical Fritz did with KPM. That said, Sanssouci has better name recognition among readers, and two three-letter acronyms could get confusing. Still, I'm chuckling at the thought.
selenak: (Fredersdorf)

Re: Gröben; Bielfeld; Strasbourg

[personal profile] selenak 2021-01-09 05:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Gröben the STD spreader: I just couldn't resist!

I love the idea re: Algarotti. Does it work out date-wise? (I.e. from when exactly is this letter?)

Thank you for linking Bielfeld's account. I have to say, "The King was a good deal piqued by this indiscretion; for if the marechal knew that it was the King of Prussia, he ought not to have received his visit, but to have prevented him with the marks of utmost repect" is as Fritzian an alternate story for "Broglie locked me up!" that I can imagine. :)
felis: (House renfair)

Re: Heinrich's Lookbook - caricature

[personal profile] felis 2021-01-09 05:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I wish! But while I used to live close by for a while and therefore have pictures from several visits, I don't anymore. :(
(This fandom certainly made me miss it.)

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