cahn | Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 22 (or: Yuletide 2020 edition)

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Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 22 (or: Yuletide 2020 edition)

ETA: Whoops, I missed my cue -- this might as well be the next discussion post, I guess! :)

This is about the fic I didn't author (I have another reveals post for the fics I did author).

So my goal this Yuletide was NOT to write any historical fandom (because hard!) and just enjoy the excellent stuff that other people wrote. And... that sort of happened? I didn't end up authoring anything history-intensive? Buuuuut I ended up spending a lot more time than I did on any of my own fics working with

mildred_of_midgard on her fic, which she was worried about being able to pull off because she had had this completely insane idea to write a long casefic about Frederick the Great that every time I turned around had another twist put in :P :) She supplied me with what we called a "rough opal in matrix" bus pass casefic, and I cut away the matrix that remained and in some cases carved the opal -- that is to say, writing additional text for some of the scenes, what we liked to call "putting in feels," and in at least two cases entirely rewriting and/or restructuring the scene she'd written. She didn't always keep what I wrote (which we'd agreed upon in the beginning), but when she did (which was most of the time :) ) she then went in and rewrote/restructured what I put in to wordsmith (some of the words I gave her were really rough) and match her style, adding even more scenes -- that is, polishing it up and adding some gold and diamonds -- and voila, a beautiful pendant, I mean, story :)

I'm really proud of it and also it was really fun and also what I could handle this year, especially because mildred did all the parts I thought were hard and also wrote all the parts involving actual history or subtle AU before I was brought in so I didn't actually have to know historical stuff (though I guess I will never forget the battle of Leuthen now), and took full responsibility for how the whole thing turned out, so all I had to do was be like "Here, I'll write some rough feels for you for this scene!" The funny part was that I would often then write a paragraph justifying why I *had* to write the scene the way I did, and more likely than not mildred would be like, "yeah, I was sure you would do that, of course it should be written like that." (The most glaring example of this was where I inserted the Letter of Doom at the climax. I was worried there was some reason she didn't want it there, but she said, no, she just didn't have time to put it in herself and was just trusting me to do that :) ) She started jokingly calling me her "other self," to which I replied that it was with 1000% less angst and frustration -- as Frederick the Great's brother was his "other self" (which actually comes up in the fic) that he could trust to do all kinds of competent things, but they had a relationship that was, um, fraught? radioactive? Whereas this was just fun :)

Mildred did so much more than I did (we estimated a 90%/10% word ratio, not even counting the part where she wordsmithed a lot of my text) that I felt very uncomfortable being listed as a co-author, but hey, ~3000 words is a respectable Yuletide fic length :)

Yet They Grind Exceedingly Small (30384 words) by mildred_of_midgard
Chapters: 5/5
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF, Historical RPF
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: Major Character Death
Relationships: Anna Amalie von Preußen & Wilhelmine von Preußen, Anna Amalie von Preußen & Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen, Wilhelmine von Preußen & Elisabeth Friederike Sophie von Brandenburg-Bayreuth, Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great & Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia
Characters: Anna Amalie von Preußen (1723-1787), Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758), Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802), Elisabeth Friederike Sophie von Brandenburg-Bayreuth (1732-1780), Wilhelmine von Hesse-Kassel (1726-1808), August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758), Alcmene 1 | Frederick the Great's Italian Greyhound, Voltaire (Writer), Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Additional Tags: Alternate Universe - Canon Divergence, Dysfunctional Family, Suicide, Alternate Universe - Dark, Siblings, Canon-Typical Violence, Mystery, Tide of History Challenge
Summary:

January 1758. Prince William is dead, some say of a broken heart. Frederick wants to absolve himself of blame for William's death. Henry schemes to end the Third Silesian War on his terms. Amalie and Wilhelmine team up to find out what really happened to their brother. Alcmene just wants to be told she's a good dog.

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Fritz couldn't write to anyone about Fredersdorf's death even after the guy had publicly been first minister for 15 years and Lehndorff was calling him the Prussian Pompadour, because Fritz didn't have a vocabulary for how much Fredersdorf had meant to him

I'd been wondering about the lack of Fredersdorf in Fritz' letters and this is a really fascinating explanation.

Wasn't that in fact future FW4 to FW3

Since I don't remember where I got that from, if you do, then that's probably the one I'm thinking of!

However, I'm still too stuck on the "not from the heart, but from another part" phrasing

But didn't we decide that was only one possible interpretation of "d'ici"? I'm still trying to consult with more fluent French speakers on the matter (waiting to hear back).

And I'm definitely not asserting that Fredersdorf was sick! As you say, we have no evidence and I'm making this up out of wholecloth. I'm only playing devil's advocate to patch up the holes you're poking. ;)

Hurt/comfort fic sounds great, regardless. :)

1736 events of possible relevance/background to hypothetical fics:

January: Fritz has colic and a mystery affliction.
February 12: MT/FS marriage.
Early March: Pesne paints Fritz, gets the mouth right by telling him to think of Wilhelmine. Fritz, Suhm, and La Chetardie all studying philosophy together.
March 22: Fritz sends salmon to FS.
May 2: "There stands one who will avenge me." (Re not being informed of the MT/FS marriage, as the latest in a string of grievances.)
May 6: Babysitting at Ruppin.
August: Move to Rheinsberg.

Edited 2021-01-26 01:25 (UTC)

We haven't had a thread yet called "sodomy"? Must remedy that. :P

So Horowski just told me that Fritz abolished the death penalty for sodomy. Now, I had *always*, as far back as high school, seen him criticized for not doing that. Since then, I've also seen him criticized in fiction for the hypocrisy (in Diana Gabaldon's Lord John series, and in an AO3 "Katte lives" fic where Fritz and Katte fight and, iirc, temporarily break up over the issue).

The interesting thing is that Horowski says Fritz's rationale for abolishing the death penalty was that young men always attend executions, and one doesn't want to give them ideas they might not have on their own.

That quote I recognized from Blanning:

It is undeniable that through frightful public capital punishments, many young and innocent spirits, who naturally want to know the reason for such a terrible execution, especially if they are also unaware of the finer sentiments (just as the criminal is), will be scandalized rather than improved, and it is even possible that evil tendencies may be awakened in them, tendencies of which they previously had no inkling.

Now, that *does* sound like he's talking about sodomy. Unfortunately, Blanning cites a secondary source: Richard J. Evans, Rituals of Retribution: Capital Punishment in Germany 1600–1987.

I can't find it cheaper than about $100 for purchase, but Stabi has it listed in the catalog in both English and German, though both entries say no copies are available. Looks like it's a 1,000+ page scholarly volume.

The Google book snippet shows me that there is a footnote or end note to the quote, but I can't see what it is. It also tells me that he wrote this in 1746.

Hmm. Would do more detective work if I had time, but back to Horowski!

However, I'm still too stuck on the "not from the heart, but from another part" phrasing - as surely worrying about Fredersdorf being threateningly ill would have been very much a matter of the heart to Fritz

Okay! A native speaker friend of a friend has weighed in, and her interpretation is that Fritz is saying that, although he feels the pain from the bottom of his heart, it's not his heart *qua biological organ* that's causing the pain, but his mind that's causing his (metaphorical) heart emotional distress.

Which is absolutely consistent with the rest of the letter and makes perfect sense to me. And which does not help us distinguish between Groeben and Fredersdorf. ;)

Number of FW/SD kids born per month, with two missing data points for infant deaths, and keeping in mind that the first few kids were born during F1's lifetime, so the social calendar looked a little different:

January: 3
March: 1
May: 1
July: 2
August: 3
November: 2

Late October - November and April, it looks like!

When did May/June as the big military revue start? Maybe he was busy that time of year.

Late October - November (at least early Nov) is Wusterhausen time, right? Man...

Edited 2021-01-26 00:17 (UTC)

The quote is from a Cabinetsordre, August 18th, 1746, which did indeed abolish the death penalty for sodomy. See here for the full text (pretty complicated German, can try to translate tomorrow, but have to go to bed now).

Oh, nice! Go you and go Fritz! I got most of the German, but need to go to bed too, so would appreciate help with the rest. A proportionate amount of forced labor instead, along with conversion therapy, I mean religious instruction, seems to be the key point. Also that he'd mitigated individual cases before, and is now making a general rule of it.

Come on, Blanning, you could have spelled the sodomy connection out.

I mean... I kind of feel like I should ship Fritz/Katte? Since it's, like, the fandom juggernaut and all :P Don't feel compelled to make me collaborate on a Fritz/Katte fic :PP

I'm actually really surprised no one else has requested Fritz/Katte, given that all the previous fic written about Fritz in exchanges (as far as I know) was Fritz/Katte!

Excellent! There are a few things in the queue, but hopefully one of these days :D

Heeee. I am just not able to wrap my mind around FW smelling like an Italian spring morning right after the rain, lol!

Ohhhh I love these sketches! All your art is so cool <3 Like everyone else I adore the Fritz/Fredersdorf window-letter illustrations... the one with Fritz's back in the foreground is my favorite, usually I like faces but that one I find really touching <3 I also like the dual views of the scene, that's super neat. And the dog, awwwww so cute! Thank you, and happy late birthday Fritz :D

I am so entirely amused that (a) you actually tabulated the data (because of course you did), and (b) there does seem to be a chance there's a non-negligible signal there...

That’s roughly it. There’s just one problem. The Rokoko German spells out this is about “viehische Vermischung”, i.e. sex with animals, which is how the term “sodomy” is generally used in German, especially old fashioned German. Before becoming fluent in English, I had no idea it’s used in English for m/m sex. I remember having to explain to an older relation of mine that Oscar Wilde wasn’t accused of sex with animals by the Marquess of Queensbury in his (in)famous “To Oscar Wilde, Sondomite” (sic) card. Meaning: as far as I can see from this cabinet ordre, which I salute Felis to have found, Fritz is abolishing the death penalty for sex with animals, not for men having sex with men. (This would also explain the contradictory information in your sources as to whether he did or he didn’t.)

Otoh, I’m not sure anyone was executed for homosexuality during his life time, because I seem remember a letter in his old age where he’s proud to having had to sign only a handful of death penalties in his entire reign, and those were of “poor women” who killed their children.

Edited 2021-01-26 05:17 (UTC)

:) I'm glad we had the native speaker input, but it's just ic for Fritz remain an engigma, isn't it?

Well, the only one other than us who requested anything in this fandom in both Yuletides was Nabielka, and none of her prompts and requests included Katte. It seems the Fritz/Katte fans from previous Yuletides were either already sated by the stories three Yuletides ago or wandered off to other fandoms?

Yes, as far as I recall they went to Wusterhausen from August to early November. (October still being included because of the hunting season factor. You could do your hunting far better from Wusterhausen.)

So... FW gearing up for the big review and FW gearing up to hunt lots of animas = FW in amorous mood?

Aahhh, okay, that makes sense. I did see "viehische Vermischung" and wished the pdf were formatted so as to allow me to run that phrase through Google Translate on my phone like I do with the books I scan, but yes, of course it means bestiality.

I blame Horowski! He says it means male/male sex! Or at least tell me if you can interpret this passage as having a bestiality meaning, because it seems like a real stretch to me.

Für die Zeitgenossen war schon männliche Homosexualität keineswegs etwas klar Definiertes oder gar wie heute eine Identität, obwohl auf die vage mit ‹Sodomie› bezeichneten Aktivitäten nach wie vor die Todesstrafe durch Verbrennen stand. Selbst wenn Monsieur sonst in seinem ganzen Leben keine einzige gute Tat getan hätte, muss man ihm dafür Respekt zollen , dass er allein schon durch seine Existenz als unübersehbar homosexueller Königsbruder mindestens im Großraum Paris eine Durchsetzung dieses Gesetzes unmöglich machte – jede Verfolgung von Homosexuellen hätte dort sofort auch seine umfangreiche Entourage mitbetroffen und war daher in dieser hierarchischen Gesellschaft einfach unmöglich. In Preußen schaffte später Friedrich II. die Todesstrafe für «Sodomie» ab, was er damit begründete, dass Jugendliche ja gerne bei öffentlichen Hinrichtungen zuschauten ; da sie natürlich auch nach dem jeweiligen Grund fragten, brächte man sie so auf unanständige Ideen. Für lesbische Beziehungen gab es nicht einmal ein Wort.

For contemporaries, male homosexuality was by no means something clearly defined or, as it is today, an identity, although the activities vaguely labeled 'sodomy' were still subject to the death penalty by burning. Even if Monsieur would not have done a single good deed in his entire life, he must be respected for the fact that his very existence as an unmistakably homosexual brother of the king made it impossible to enforce this law, at least in the greater Paris area - any persecution of homosexuals there would immediately have affected his extensive entourage and was therefore simply impossible in this hierarchical society. Later in Prussia, Friedrich II. abolished the death penalty for "sodomy", which he justified with the fact that young people liked to watch public executions; since they naturally also asked for the respective reason, that would give them indecent ideas. For lesbian relationships, there was not even a word.

But yeah, from the cabinet order, you're right, it does look like we're talking bestiality here, and that does explain why he's criticized for not abolishing the death penalty for homosexual acts. And no, I don't think I've seen anyone say it was actually enforced; I brought the lack of enforcement up back in the earliest days of the salon when I mentioned that he'd left the death penalty on the books.

(I might add I was immediately skeptical that it's impossible to persecute the lower classes of Paris for something that the upper classes are doing, but then I promptly got distracted by the next sentence about Fritz.)

Oh,

cahn, "Monsieur" is the gay Philippe, Duc d'Orleans. This passage is introduced by discussing the way his first wife (not Liselotte) had a well-documented lesbian relationship.

I seem remember a letter in his old age where he’s proud to having had to sign only a handful of death penalties in his entire reign

Blanning cites one to Heinrich in 1781 in which Fritz claims that there are no more than 12 death sentences annually in an average year, which matches the statistics Blanning gives. For the years 1775-1778, Blanning gives the following number of death sentences for the following crimes (you can see infanticide is up there):

Murder 12
Concocting poison 4
Highway robbery 2
Infanticide 18
Arson 8
Soliciting desertion 2
Total 46

In his entire reign, Fritz says he's only signed one death penalty in Silesia, because only one man deserved it.

Yeah, I was wondering about that, too. This particular case seems to be about sex with an animal indeed, which means that probably so is the whole cabinet order. That said, as far as I know, sodomy did still have a wider connotation back then and the narrowing of its German meaning was only in the process and happened a bit later, during the 19th century. So theoretically, "dergleichen Verbrechen" might include more than just sex with animals after all, but on the third hand, Fritz himself doesn't even use the word "sodomy" here, it's only in the title and I think that one might have been added by the publisher in 1894, so we would be back to the beginning regarding both the narrow meaning of the term and what Fritz is talking about.

The new law code from 1794, which wiki credits with actually abolishing the death penalty for homosexuality, says

"Sodomy [sodomiterey] and other such unnatural sins, which cannot be mentioned here because of their abomination, require a complete eradication of the memory. Therefore, after having endured a year or several years in prison with welcome and farewell [=corporal punishment], such a criminal should be banished forever from the place of his residence where his vice has become known, and a possibly abused animal should be killed, or secretly removed from the area."

remember a letter in his old age where he’s proud to having had to sign only a handful of death penalties in his entire reign

Annually! Letter to Voltaire in 1777:

I believed, following the sentiments of the wisest legislators, that it was better to prevent crimes than to punish them; that succeeded, and, to give you a clear idea of it, you must make yourself aware of our population, which only goes to five million two hundred thousand souls. If France has twenty million inhabitants, that makes about a quarter; therefore since our laws have been moderated, we have, in a common year, only fourteen, at most fifteen death sentences; I can answer you this all the more affirmatively, since no one can to be imprisoned without my signature, nor anybody justified [executed?], unless I have ratified the sentence. Of these offenders, most are girls who have killed their children; few murders, even less highway robbers. But among these creatures who behave so cruelly towards their offspring, it is only those whose murder has been proven who are executed. I did what I could to prevent these unfortunate women from killing their fruit. The masters are obliged give notice as soon as their maids are pregnant; in the past, these poor girls were made to do public penance in churches, I dispensed those; there are houses, in every province, where they can give birth, and where they are responsible for bringing up their children. Notwithstanding all these facilities, I have not yet been able to uproot from their minds the distorted prejudice which leads them to let go of their children. I am even now occupied with the idea of abolishing the shame formerly attached to those who married creatures who were mothers without being married; I don't know if maybe that will give me success.

(I have to say, not only was he invested, he had a better grasp of the connection between infaticide/abortion and shaming/punishing women instead of helping them than some modern-day right wing politicians.)

Of course I did, it was like waving a red flag in front of a bull, or putting out catnip for a cat, or something. ;)

Yes, I'm not at all claiming there is statistical significance here (do *not* have time to run the data through R and get a p-value :P), and there are missing data points, so this is just for silliness, but it *is* interesting that we have two clumps here, one that potentially correlates with the military and one with hunting!

(If you look at the times of years he spent traveling and reviewing his domains, when SD didn't come with him, there probably are some statistically significant months in which she *wasn't* likely to give birth.)

the narrowing of its German meaning was only in the process and happened a bit later, during the 19th century.

Aah, okay, then Horowski was correct! But yes, the cabinet order still seems to refer only to bestiality, especially in conjunction with the 1794 code. Was that the code that was started by Fritz in the 1780s, though not finished and promulgated until after his death?

remember a letter in his old age where he’s proud to having had to sign only a handful of death penalties in his entire reign

Annually! Letter to Voltaire in 1777:

Hee, we were writing at the same time and found different letters, that's awesome.

And yes, Blanning talks about how Fritz abolished the public penance too.

(I have to say, not only was he invested, he had a better grasp of the connection between infaticide/abortion and shaming/punishing women instead of helping them than some modern-day right wing politicians.)

No kidding! Though Blanning also attributes this decision to Fritz's obsession with increasing the population of his territory. Given other things Fritz says about not shaming women who are seduced, and sympathizing with women cheating on their husbands if the husbands cheat first, I suspect his motives were partly humane, partly pragmatic.

Makes sense to me!

Question: was the May/June review a thing already in 1711, under F1? Because if not, then we have to remove Fritz's January birth as a piece of evidence for a correlation between the review and FW/SD's sex life.

My real point in asking about the review, jokes about FW being in the mood aside, was that if he's reviewing the army and traveling to Wesel and East Prussia and such, he might not have had many opportunities to impregnate SD in the late spring and early summer, which means having only one kid (that we know of) in the February-April period may actually be statistically significant.

The Heinrich letter was the one I had vaguely recalled, and it's neat the Voltaire letter compliments it (though I had misremembered the per annum/in the entire reign ratio). I agree that Fritz does better than many a current day right wing politician when it comes to the connection between infanticide and shaming/punishing women.

I might add I was immediately skeptical that it's impossible to persecute the lower classes of Paris for something that the upper classes are doing

Hard same. Especially in a country where the law is highly capricious and backwards as hell, see also the Calas affair (okay, Toulouse, not Paris, but still). Also, disregarding all the enormous other differences between the respective historical situations for a moment, but: Ernst Röhm being openly gay and the leader of the SA as well as one of the few people to be on a "Du" footing with Hitler didn't do squat to protect gay men outside of Röhm's immediate circle even before the Night of the Long Knives and Röhm's arrest and death.

Back to France in the era of Louis XIV: we also have the Affair of the Poisons as an example of how the various participants were punished, and boy was there ever a difference in rank. La Voisin, non-noble abortionist and poisoner? Excecuted. Madame de Montespan, mistress of Louis (soon to be ex mistress), her likely client? Not so much, though the fact that she lost all influence was a punishment, just not a legal one.

was the May/June review a thing already in 1711, under F1?

I have no idea. But I do think that in the F1 era, SD used to travel with him when he travelled, as they were both under pressure to produce the next heir. (See also Grandpa F1 marrying again just in case they didn't manage.) Plus even in more normal marriages, a young couple usually has more sex with each other than a long term one.

(though I had misremembered the per annum/in the entire reign ratio)

Blanning points out that it's still marvelously low compared to other countries. London alone had 48 executions per year, because even mild crimes came with the death penalty, whereas Fritz saved it for crimes that involved killing or trying to kill another person...and also soliciting desertion. *clears throat*

Hard same. Especially in a country where the law is highly capricious and backwards as hell

Right? It might have been slightly harder to grab two random men fornicating in an alley and then go, "Oh, wait, sorry, you're Philippe's boyfriend, carry on," but, like, look at miscegenation laws in apartheid South Africa. The black party to the "crime" would have their life ruined, and the white party got a "don't do it again." It's not that hard for a stratified society to enforce penalties differently! ~~Peaceful protestors and violent insurrectionists in the US in the last 6 months~~

Another thing Horowski has said that I'm skeptical about is that Fritz is a showcase example of how cousins marrying doesn't lead to health problems. I mean, I can't prove that FW and his kids had porphyria and this was related to SD carrying the same porphyria gene that G3 had and that this was related to SD and FW being first cousins, but...the FW/SD kids are hardly textbook cases of robust physical health! (I agree that first cousins marrying is not as bad as it's sometimes made out to be, and repeated inbreeding a la the Hapsburgs is where it gets really bad, but...you might want to choose your example better.)

then Horowski was correct!

I was in the middle of qualifying this when Selena replied: correct that "sodomy" could mean m/m sex then, apparently incorrect about Fritz officially abolishing the death penalty for m/m sex.

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Page 12 of 13

Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 22 (or: Yuletide 2020 edition)

Re: Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736

Re: Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736

Sodomy

Re: Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736

Re: January 24

Re: Sodomy

Re: Sodomy

Re: Loyalty gesture tropes

Re: Friedrich: Mythos und Tragödie

Re: Perfume? Perfume.

Re: January 24

Re: January 24

Re: Sodomy

Re: Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736

Re: Loyalty gesture tropes

Re: January 24

Re: Sodomy

Re: Sodomy

Re: January 24

Re: Sodomy

Re: January 24

Re: Sodomy

Re: January 24

Re: Sodomy

Re: Sodomy