Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 20

[cahn]

Yuletide signups so far:
3 requests for Frederician RPF, 2 offers
2 requests for Circle of Voltaire RPF, 3 offers !! :D :D

(I am so curious as to who the third person is!)

Comments

Re: Fredersdorf: The Dirk Fahlenkamp Version (I) - Generalities

[mildred_of_midgard]

Anna Christiane Fredersdorf born von Frederborn"...I therefore tentatively suggest that "Frederborn" might be her place of origin, i.e. she's from F., not a "von F."; but it's just a theory

Can you double-check whether the text says "Frederborn" or "Flederborn"? Because that could be either a typo on your part (caused by obvious reasons!), or a misreading or miswriting of the registry, because Flederborn was the old German name for a village in Pomerania.

I was also wondering if poor people even necessarily *had* last names in Poland at this date, and Wikipedia says:

Gradually the use of family names spread to other social groups: the townsfolk (burghers) by the end of the 17th century, then the peasantry, and finally the Jews.[citation needed] The process ended only in the mid-19th century.

So in eastern Pomerania, near the Polish border, in a multi-ethnic area...maybe the toponym was all she had?

Also, remember when some random Saxon lady liked Fredersdorf and left him her estate? The book that tells me about that, Herrenhaus und Hütten, tells me Fredersdorf left it to 7 heirs, his siblings and their descendants. Which gives me the names and dates of some of them, plus an excerpt from his 1755 will.

Sources, what sources? The book, btw, should be side-eyed heavily, as it subscribes to beliefs like "Fredersdorf got permission to marry by pretending to be dying." Anyway, this is what the book says the will says:

- Anna Christiane, widowed Wagner, his youngest, still living sister, born in 1704.
- Three children of his late oldest sister, Sophia Elisabeth Leuenberg, (1695-1746).
- The two sons of his youngest brother, Johann Christian (1700-1740).
- Maria Elisabeth Höpffner, born in 1732, daughter of his oldest, already dead brother, the town musician Joachim Martin, born 1697.

So that gives us 4 of the 6 siblings. The other two may not have lived long enough to have had children. 5 out of 7 would be a pretty good survival rate!

Also, one of the nephews, born 1727, is listed as König-Preußischer Hofrat, which would imply that maybe Fredersdorf's family got some favor too, but I'm taking that cautiously, because the only other source I can find for his name and that title is a book called "Barberina: Fritz's mistress," which has this nephew as the treasurer in charge of paying for dancers...in 1745. When he would be 18, and when that was totally Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf's position. So...grain of salt.

Re: Fredersdorf: The Dirk Fahlenkamp Version (I) - Generalities

[felis]

The book, btw, should be side-eyed heavily

Heh, not least because Fredersdorf's youngest sister is called "Anna Christiane" here (which is apparently his mother's name), "Anna Cath." in the literal quote from his will (unsourced as you note, why doesn't she say where she got that from?), and "Anna Christina" a couple pages down, which might be closest, because there's a facsimile signature attached that seems to say just that. But hey, the author also calls Fredersdorf's noble benefactress "Susanna" and "Susanne" in turns, so who cares about names?
(She also links the nephew to some letters in the secret state archive, but searching their digital data bank for "Fredersdorf", I only turned up entries for our guy.)

That said, even if the names and maybe even the dates are to be taken with a heavy grain of salt, if at least the gist of the will is correct, it seems like all but the youngest of his siblings are dead by 1755, so he doesn't seem to be an outlier when it comes to his dying age.

Re: Fredersdorf: The Dirk Fahlenkamp Version (I) - Generalities

[mildred_of_midgard]

Oh, man, I didn't notice the "Cath."/"Christiane" difference! Despite typing both repeatedly into google hoping to turn them up. I did notice the daughter had the mother's name and the oldest son got the name and job of his father, which of course was quite typical.

To play devil's advocate, Christiane/Christina and Susanne/Susanne are the kind of name interchange that happened among contemporaries (they *didn't* care about names the same way we do), so they're often represented differently in our sources, and it's possible Anna had three names (swapping the order of names was common as well), but definitely this author doesn't inspire confidence that they're not just being sloppy with their source material.

Also. If you're going to quote verbatim from Fredersdorf's will, CITATIONS OMG. *headdesk*

if at least the gist of the will is correct, it seems like all but the youngest of his siblings are dead by 1755, so he doesn't seem to be an outlier when it comes to his dying age.

I did notice that!

Re: Fredersdorf: The Dirk Fahlenkamp Version (I) - Generalities

[selenak]

Can you double-check whether the text says "Frederborn" or "Flederborn"?

I checked: "Fredeborn", in fact, so the typo is likely to be Fahlenkamp's, for I agree, "Flederborn" would make much more sense!

Also, you are die einzige Detektivin again, what with finding out the (likely) names of Fredersdorf's siblings. The oldest brother being named after Fredersdorf Snr. and following him as town musician makes sense, too.

Re: Fredersdorf: The Dirk Fahlenkamp Version (I) - Generalities

[mildred_of_midgard]

Flederborn it shall be, then! (Until we find out otherwise.) The handwriting in the registry might actually be difficult to read, it might not be a typo on his part.