cahn | Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 19

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frederick the great

Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 19

Yuletide nominations:

18th Century CE Federician RPF
Maria Theresia | Maria Theresa of Austria
Voltaire
Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Ernst Ahasverus von Lehndorff
Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802)
Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758)
Anna Amalie von Preußen | Anna Amalia of Prussia (1723-1787)
Catherine II of Russia
Hans Hermann von Katte
Peter Karl Christoph von Keith
Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf
August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758)

Circle of Voltaire RPF
Emilie du Chatelet
Jeanne Antoinette Poisson (Madame de Pompadour)
John Hervey (1696-1743)
Marie Louise Mignot Denis
Lady Mary Wortley-Montagu
Pierre Louis Moreau de Maupertuis
Armand de Vignerot du Plessis de Richelieu (1696-1788)
Francesco Algarotti

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(not least because of the geekiness content to be honest)

See, this is one of the things I love about Fritz and his pen pals (Wilhelmine included): they're such geeks! <3

[sidenote: when was that whole "40 cups of coffee instead of sleep" experiment? earlier probably]

Well, this is an interesting question, and you'd think I'd have the precise dates, but what I have instead is this: I've never found an non-anecdotal source for this claim, never mind one that gives dates! I'm starting to wonder if it's one of those things everyone "knows" about Fritz that ends up being apocryphal--there were a lot of anonymous and unsourced anecdotes published immediately after his death.

But I keep hoping we'll turn it up, because it's one of my absolute favorite things about him, and quite possibly saved me from a similar experiment! (In that I tend toward arrogance, and when I was a teenager, I was of the mind that just because other people couldn't do something didn't mean *I* couldn't--but if Frederick the Great, noted workaholic and study-holic whom I respected, couldn't do without sleep despite his best efforts meant that I probably should assume that applied limitation to me as well. As much as I hate sleeping and like working and studying, I have to concede that the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak.)

a) physics experiments with a vacuum pump [although only the first - does a clock keep its pace in a vacuum? - is actually physics in hindsight, the second - does a plant seed grow without air? - is not]

Still geeky! <3

which concludes with the request to work less for the sake of his health (the exact thing Fritz isn't doing and complained about at the start of the letter; very much in character).

Fritz: other people's limitations don't apply to me! (One more reason I related hard to Fritz.)

Voltaire in his February 28th response says that Fritz should take his own health advice, and that perhaps Nisus/Euryalus fic is more suitable during a time of recovery than maths. (Which I can only agree with.)

My fave Émilie would disagree, though. ;) Though I agree it's probably true for Fritz, since that was not really his thing.

still pre-meeting and pre-ascension to the throne, there are a lot of things not present in this letter - the sharp sarcasm for example (which could be very witty, or mocking and hurtful, or both), or the often imperious and short-tempered attitude of King Frederick.

Yeah, he doesn't start lashing at Voltaire quite yet, though having just finished Uwe Oster's Wilhelmine bio tells me that at least one person who wasn't Prince Eugene saw future Fritz coming: Doctor Superville.

In his 1739 words, [Fritz has] much wit/spirit/intelligence, but a bad heart and a terrible character. He's suspicious, stubborn, excessive, selfish, ungrateful, vicious, and unless I'm very much mistaken, will someday be even stingier than his father.

One minute I'm laughing out loud because a quote is hilarious or daring or WTF, the next I just can't help being touched or impressed, and the next it's "damn it, you asshole".

If Fritz were consistent, he wouldn't hold my interest nearly as thoroughly.

I certainly see why "enigma" or "contradictory" are terms often used about Frederick

ZOMG yes.

cahn and

selenak can tell you I say this all the time; searching our chat history, I found no fewer than three examples, such as this one.

although I think the first one gives the wrong impression of only getting an incomprehensible facade...I still think there's a lot of insight to be had, it's just that he was indeed quite a mess of contradictions.

But what I apparently haven't shared is my rant that says exactly this! One of the fictional characters I keep in my head was ranting that obviously Asprey never knew anyone like Fritz, and if you have the word "polutropos" in your vocabulary like the ancient Greeks did, you don't need the word "enigma".

I did point out in salon that at least one translator of the Odyssey has translated the first line as "Tell me about a complicated man," and that I thought that was very suitable for Fritz and our salon. :)

siblings! So many sibling feelings, so many complex and heartbreaking relationships.

This is all thanks to our wonderful

selenak! I owe her a great debt for teaching me all about Hohenzollern dysfunction and complexities: it's fascinating, but I wouldn't have done all that research on my own (not least because it's largely in German, and I only started studying German this year, entirely because

selenak shared German scholarship with us, and I realized I need to read a bunch of it. I'm currently working my way slowly through a long reading list and picking up speed and proficiency as I go. :))

As she noted, she is the queen of siblings in this fandom, and I am the boyfriend expert. :D

Lastly, I observe that fix-it scenarios don't seem quite as satisfying in a historical fandom. Pesky reality getting in the way.

OMG, I have the same reaction! I don't know if I shared my feelings here, but I definitely once said to my wife last year that I can write fix-it fic all day long, and unlike in, say, Hunger Games, where my AU has equal ontological status with canon in my head, at the end of the day, Katte still died on November 6 and Fritz still suffered and made other people suffer. :/

I haven't actually finished, much less posted, my fix-it fics, but there's one I'm still actively working on and have hopes for.

You left out one of your comments from your blog that I wanted to comment on because I had the same reaction!

[Re: health problems, Frederick had a whole litany of them, and I'm seriously impressed that with his workaholic lifestyle of little sleep, tons of snuff and coffee with pepper and mustard, combined with 18th century medicine, he still reached the age of 74. My theory: all the fresh fruit he consumed and grew in Sanssouci, which was a really consistent thing for him. He even sent a pineapple half-way through Europe as a gift to his sister.]

I said that here and here! I even said "litany"!

selenak: On the endearing side: early in the travel correspondance, Fritz sends a pineapple to Wilhelmine from Potsdam. Bear in mind that pineapples otherwise don't exist in Germany at this point, by and large; Fritz had some of the earliest grown for him in garden house, it was a rare and precious thing.

mildred_of_midgard: Fritz totally loved fruit and went to no small expense to get a lot of fresh fruit grown locally for his table, which now that I think of it, may partly account for how he survived his litany of health problems plus 18th century medicine for 74 years, lol. Good to know he shared some of his bounty with Wilhelmine!

So clearly, you are me and I am you. :) Welcome!

Oh, if you want a detailed and organized intro to our salon, I wrote one last month for another recent recruit (who, unlike you, was new even to DW), here.

I'm starting to wonder if it's one of those things everyone "knows" about Fritz that ends up being apocryphal

It's certainly something that would make sense as an exaggerated story that has a lot of truth in it - in this case his general attitude towards work/study and his coffee drinking (and his general personality) - but might not have happened exactly the way it's told through the grapevine. On the other hand, it's Fritz, so who knows. Might as well be true to the letter.

re: Doctor Superville [what a name] - didn't Valory say some similar things that early? I seem to remember coming across that. (And Voltaire kind of jokes about the mutual dislike between him and Fritz in one of the letters I read yesterday.)

if you have the word "polutropos" in your vocabulary like the ancient Greeks did, you don't need the word "enigma"

Had to google that (never got past two weeks of Greek), but now I really like it! Also from a meta standpoint, multiple narratives possible.

Heh, I left out the health/fruit part because I assumed that everyone here knew it anyway, given that I learned most of it from

rheinsberg in the first place. And thank you for the link to the intro post - I see that your "Fritz as Royal Detective" from a few days ago had a double layer there, ha.

It's certainly something that would make sense as an exaggerated story that has a lot of truth in it...On the other hand, it's Fritz, so who knows. Might as well be true to the letter.

Exactly! It's in character, at least.

re: Doctor Superville [what a name] - didn't Valory say some similar things that early? I seem to remember coming across that.

Did he? The famous quotes I'm familiar with from him on Fritz are from 1753. But maybe there are pre-May 31, 1740 ones too.

Doctor Superville [what a name]

I had the same reaction, lol. It keeps calling up Smallville + Superman echoes in my brain, which, to be fair, would not have been the case for contemporaries. :P

Also from a meta standpoint, multiple narratives possible.

Exactly! It applies to Fritz in several different meanings the same way it applies to Odysseus in several different meanings.

Heh, I left out the health/fruit part because I assumed that everyone here knew it anyway, given that I learned most of it from [community profile] rheinsberg in the first place.

The facts, yes, but the hypothesis that it contributed to his longevity is something you and I came up with independently, which is awesome!

I see that your "Fritz as Royal Detective" from a few days ago had a double layer there, ha.

:) Yes, indeed, that was an inside joke aimed at the people who'd been calling me Royal Detective for a year now. And now you're inside the joke too.

Hmmm, maybe I did misremember the Valory thing. Fritz told Voltaire that he didn't like him the minute he showed up and then Voltaire made a joke about the way Valory saw Fritz, so it's entirely possible that I put the wrong date on the Valory quotes in my head. (It's been a looot of new information in a very short time lately. :D)

re: Superville, I immediately saw him as a comics supervillain with a very on-the-nose name ;)

Given Superville met Crown Prince Fritz specifically in his capacity as doctor and given Fritz' opinion of doctors, I don't find it surprising he correctly predicted King Fritz from that encounter. :)

Valory: the most famous description he gave of Fritz which I had translated for Mildred and Cahn last year is from the early 1750s. However, Valory also gave a (less critical) description of Fritz in the early 1740s, when he saw quite a lot of him, since Valory, like Mitchell much later, was with Fritz on campaign now and then in the Silesian Wars. (Hence the plot of Th Palladion.) He also socialized with Fritz' brothers a lot in between. He wasn't the French envoy during all this time - in between, annother Scottish Jcobite exile had that job, Lord Tyrconnel - but he was reappointed French envoy after Tyrconnel's death.

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Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 19

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts