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Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 19
Yuletide nominations:
18th Century CE Federician RPF
Maria Theresia | Maria Theresa of Austria
Voltaire
Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Ernst Ahasverus von Lehndorff
Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802)
Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758)
Anna Amalie von Preußen | Anna Amalia of Prussia (1723-1787)
Catherine II of Russia
Hans Hermann von Katte
Peter Karl Christoph von Keith
Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf
August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758)
Circle of Voltaire RPF
Emilie du Chatelet
Jeanne Antoinette Poisson (Madame de Pompadour)
John Hervey (1696-1743)
Marie Louise Mignot Denis
Lady Mary Wortley-Montagu
Pierre Louis Moreau de Maupertuis
Armand de Vignerot du Plessis de Richelieu (1696-1788)
Francesco Algarotti
18th Century CE Federician RPF
Maria Theresia | Maria Theresa of Austria
Voltaire
Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Ernst Ahasverus von Lehndorff
Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802)
Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758)
Anna Amalie von Preußen | Anna Amalia of Prussia (1723-1787)
Catherine II of Russia
Hans Hermann von Katte
Peter Karl Christoph von Keith
Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf
August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758)
Circle of Voltaire RPF
Emilie du Chatelet
Jeanne Antoinette Poisson (Madame de Pompadour)
John Hervey (1696-1743)
Marie Louise Mignot Denis
Lady Mary Wortley-Montagu
Pierre Louis Moreau de Maupertuis
Armand de Vignerot du Plessis de Richelieu (1696-1788)
Francesco Algarotti
Advancing the Cause of Seckendorff
Vol.1 and Vol.2: Seckendorff the warrior
Vol. 3 and Vol.4: Seckendorff the envoy
Bear in mind he wasn't one after the other, but all intermingled, so our author covers the same years in different volumes. I found this out when I stared in disbelief at the biography, early on, jumping from Seckendorff campaigning in the early 1720s to Seckendorff campaigning in the mid 1730s. However, the "envoy" volumes also jump from Seckendorff in the early to mid 20s - Poland and Saxony - to the 1730s (hawking the Pragmatic Sanction all over Europe), with his time in Berlin with FW conspiciously avoided. Now I realise a biographer publishing in 1792-1794 (later volumes) doesn't have access to the Vienna state archive where Seckendorff's reports are, but since one of the aims of the biography is to show how noble Seckendorff was slandered by Fritz, it would help to say something about that era.
It also means I really am postponing a proper reading of this biography, because my interest in Seckendorff's various military campaigns through the decades is limited. Which isn't to say my brief exploration didn't bear (hopefully) entertaining fruit. Because our biographer has a decidedly different take on various VIPs of the time than especially 19th century historians will have:
Biographer, re: Seckendorff in the War of Polish Succession campaign, with everyone at Philippsburg: So, get this. Seckendorff's great mentor Eugene is unfortunately senile and dragging his feet. Seckendorff is trying to compensate and doing his best, but not helped by the evilest man of Prussia scheming against him. You'll all have heard of him, some of my readers might even have still met this monster, his very name should call loathing and contempt...
*drumroll*
....Leopold von Anhalt-Dessau, aka The Old Dessauer. Seething with jealousy because FW liked Seckendorff so much, he schemed and schemed against our hero. These two could not be more different. The Old Dessauer was an enemy of all culture, while our hero, though a military man, still liked his books. The Old Dessauer was also a brute. Those brutal punishments for Prussian soldiers we've all heard off, the beatings of soldiers at the slightest perceived offense? He came up with that. Granted, his drilling made the Prussian army what it is today, but I think that might have been managable without also inventing a brutality cult. In short: the old Dessauer was scum, he did everything to make Seckendorff's life miserable and to blame him for how the Philippsburg thing went down, which I spend the next twenty pages of disproving, and he did it all out of jealousy. And yeah, the "philosopher of Sanssouci" also slandered my guy in his writings, but we're all clear on his motive here, aren't we, though I for one will not investigate that era of their lives in this biography.
Then there's the biographer's take on Seckendorff post 1740:
So, after years and years of Habsburg service, our hero was blamed for the failures of the Russian-Austrian Turkish war and locked up at Graz. When MT ascended to the throne, she got him out of there, but can you blame him for not sticking around in Vienna after that? You cannot. Instead, he offered his services to the House of Wittelsbach and became Karl Albrecht's campaign manager, err, fiield marshal and supreme commander. Given that Karl Albrecht, aka Charles VII., was now the next Emperor, this was consistent, not disloyal - he still served the Emperor, and the Habsburgs had no right to expect anything of him anyway. Sooooo, after a good start we all know Karl Albrecht's cause didn't exactly florish, and yes, Fritz keeps bitching about our hero in his memoirs and blames him for that, but that's more slander. Seckendorff did his best, even against that war criminal Austrian Trenck. Once Karl Albrecht was dead, his negotiating skills came into play again as he was instrumental in negotiating between MT and Maximilian and concluded the Treaty of Dettingen, and sure, Bavaria didn't emerge as the stellar victor there, what with Max agreeing to vote for Franz Stephan as Emperor and giving up any claim of his line to the imperial throne in exchange for getting Bavaria back, but my point is, it was the best that could be done, and Fritz sure as hell wasn't in business for Wittelsbach interests in the second Silesian War, no matter what he claimed. Now this treaty would and should have made for a great final chapter, but instead of letting my guy enjoying his old age, SOMEONE got all vengeful on a worthy old man.
Biographer on Seckendorff getting kidnapped and relased in the 7 Years War:
Awful. Just awful. Fritz used the pretense of our hero entertaining a correspondance with MT and various people at the Viennese court. This actually wasn't entirely wrong, he did, but look, naturally a man of Seckendorff's experience and years would want to offer some free advice to MT, I mean, she did get him out of prison that one time, and what do you mean, that didn't stop him from signing on to Team Wittelsbach thereafter? Anyway, that correspondance wasn't the real reason, as we all know. . He got dragged to Magdeburg on Fritzian orders. Now Seckendorff had been called Papa by FW's younger kids, being the kindly benevolent man he was, and they all adored him, I swear, so he thought Prince Heinrich might help, and had Major X ask Heinrich for his aid. Heinrich said he'd do his best to ensure Seckendorff would stay in comfort at Magdeburg and that Major X had access to him, but for some mysterious reasons every time X showed up at Magdeburg the commander there didn't seem to have gotten the message that he was supposed to provide free access at all.
(Lehndorff: has no problem visiting Seckendorff in Magdeburg, though is not a military man with Seckendorffian loyalties. Definitely is not under the impression Heinrich called Seckendorff Papa.)
(Biographer: would probably be shocked to learn that Heinrich was informed by Fritz of the Seckendorff kidnapping scheme beforehand and did not disagree at all.)
Anyway, then MT insisted on exchanging Moritz von Anhalt-Dessau, son of that Most Evil Man Of His Time, for Seckendorff, otherwise he'd have surely died in prison which must have been Fritz' intention when kidnapping him.
(Seriously, our biographer doesn't even consider the possibilitiy Fritz might have planned for just this exchange. Granted, he doesn't have access to the Fritz/Heinrich correspondance, but given the timing of the kidnapping, it would have seemed obvious to me.)
So does our biographer for any flaw of his hero? Actually, yes, he does. His preface draws this character portrait:
Like Alexander, like Caesar, like his example and protector, the immortal Eugene, (Seckendorff) had no particular distinguishment in his facial traits or figure, though he was of middle height and stood straight. His manner of speaking was unpleasant, as he used to talk through his teeth and nose at the same time. His face, which wasn't beautiful anyway, was furtherly somewhat disfigured through a pronounced lower lip. But these insignifciant features could be full of expression when the emotion of one of the most vivid and receptive souls that ever were formed them, and this harsh voice could be captivating when pronouncing tones of lovely applause, of soft encouragement or of thundering persuasion. (...)
He loved cleaniliness and order above all; whereas he despised luxury. This dislike for splendour and his thriftiness at times bordered on making him a miser. But even the greatest envy will have to concede to him that he was always incorruptible, and supported many worthy charities.
One has maligned him due to his love of wine. It can't be denied that he liked to drink; however, since he could weather a lot, he rarely, and in his later years never, fell into disgusting complete drunkenness. Field Marshal Grumbkow, the favourite of Friedrich Wilhelm, was an amazing drinker, and often seduced (Seckendorff) into it. However, since (Seckendorff) often managed to extract secret information from Grumbkow when Grumbkow was blazingly drunk, and achieve results from the King over joyful cups for which he'd have asked in vain while sober, one should forgive him these diplomatic debaucheries. He always kept his head enough to note down an exact report of the King's conversation when returning home from the Tobacco Parliament.
We then get informed Seckendorff was a hard worker whose immense amount of papers would fill entire libraries and a good Christian who despite being in the service of a Catholic monarch remained true to the Protestant faith, and the biographer tells an anecdote about M T s Dad suggesting that maybe he should convert, while MT s mother the first Elisabeth Christine of Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel (herself a converted Protestant) says he should not. Seckendorff then says: How should my Emperor be able to trust me if I betray the faith of my fathers? and Emperor Charles relents.
After thus praising Seckendorff as a great Christian and good Protestant, the biographer regretfully adds:
(Seckendorff) had a high opinion of chastity, and in this regard let his morals push him to a harshness towards others which may indeed be lamented, but for which his education and the spirit of the era may be to blame. A dwarf who had served him for many years loyally and honestly hit on the bad idea of conducting an affair with a tall and plumb woman which was proven through that slut getting pregnant; this happened during the Field Marshal's later years at Meuselwitz. His lord, not content with this unequal couple having been given a church penance by their community, ordered the little lover to be put into a prison where the wretched creature expired after only a few years.
At which point my sympathy for Seckendorff's stint as a prisoner in Magdeburg is below zero. The preface also praises his personal bravery in battle and tries to sell us on Seckendorff as a truth-to-power teller, which clashes with the earlier description of his persuasiveness. Re: his education, the biographer says that while he could write and speak several languages, he wasn't perfect in any of them, as evidenced by his Latin correspondance with a preacher, and finishes his introducing character portrait with a pot shot at "the sage of Sanssouci" whom the reader has to admit about hearing all these good things about Seckendorff was BIASED, okay?
Meanwhile, I wish someone had rescued that poor dwarf.
Re: Advancing the Cause of Seckendorff
Vol. 3 and Vol.4: Seckendorff the envoy
Aaahh, okay. I had noticed 1-2 were continuous narrative, and 3-4 seemed to be mostly envoy-related documents, which is how I concluded 1-2 were the bio and 3-4 the supporting documentation. Splitting it chronologically was not what I expected!
However, the "envoy" volumes also jump from Seckendorff in the early to mid 20s - Poland and Saxony - to the 1730s (hawking the Pragmatic Sanction all over Europe), with his time in Berlin with FW conspiciously avoided.
Also not what I was expecting. Come on, those are the best years! Zomg.
(hawking the Pragmatic Sanction all over Europe)
"Like demented insurance salesmen" in the memorable phrasing of Asprey.
You'll all have heard of him, some of my readers might even have still met this monster, his very name should call loathing and contempt...
*drumroll*
Wow, okay.
It also means I really am postponing a proper reading of this biography, because my interest in Seckendorff's various military campaigns through the decades is limited.
Don't blame you! James Keith's memoirs are also heavily military and *also* don't include the Fritz period, but also they're shorter, in English, and cover two Jacobite campaigns that I'm more interested in, so I'm keeping them in mind, though I have no immediate plans to read them. The Russian stuff might be of more interest to us in this fandom.
This actually wasn't entirely wrong, he did, but look, naturally a man of Seckendorff's experience and years would want to offer some free advice to MT, I mean, she did get him out of prison that one time, and what do you mean, that didn't stop him from signing on to Team Wittelsbach thereafter?
*snort*
(Lehndorff: has no problem visiting Seckendorff in Magdeburg, though is not a military man with Seckendorffian loyalties. Definitely is not under the impression Heinrich called Seckendorff Papa.)
*even more snorting*
Anyway, then MT insisted on exchanging Moritz von Anhalt-Dessau, son of that Most Evil Man Of His Time
Who Wikipedia tells me died of blood poisoning (from his wound in the battle in which he was captured--Hochkirch) soon after his release from captivity. What bad luck!
Like Alexander, like Caesar, like his example and protector, the immortal Eugene, (Seckendorff) had no particular distinguishment in his facial traits or figure
I laughed so hard.
Guess what? Like Alexander, like Caesar, like the immortal Eugene, I too have no particular distinguishment in my facial traits or figure! Or, in the words of Eddie Izzard, "Leonardo da Vinci invented the helicopter...that did...not...work. And so did I!"
Field Marshal Grumbkow, the favourite of Friedrich Wilhelm, was an amazing drinker, and often seduced (Seckendorff) into it.
Huh. The take on this I've always seen is that Seckendorff, who knew that Grumbkow was vulnerable to influence when drunk, used to encourage Grumbkow to drink in order to take advantage of him, and had to drink more than he wanted to in order to keep up. Which is not exactly different from what this author is saying, but with a slightly different slant.
Do we know how this guy is related to Seckendorff?
Meanwhile, I wish someone had rescued that poor dwarf.
With you.
Well, thank you for taking one for the team and dipping into this for us! I now know to side-eye any quotes or claims based on it (and in what way to side-eye it, which is more important).
Also, I enjoyed you using the "advancing the cause of Seckendorff" line I came up with in a sexual context--never has a line been more appropriate in a different context.
Oh,
He was sordidly scheming; his manners were crude and rustic; lying had become so much second nature to him that he had lost the use of the truth. He was a usurer who sometimes appeared in the guise of a soldier, and sometimes in that of a diplomat.
I'm sure Selena won't mind if you tweak that line in "How I Survived Christmas" accordingly. Sorry for the beta fail!
Re: Advancing the Cause of Seckendorff
I know, right? The very years Seckendorff will remain known for when most people won't have heard of the various succession wars other than the Austrian one anymore.
Yes, that's why the anti-Old Dessauer outburst was so unusual and striking. If I ever find the time, I'll translate some of the passage for you, because I did not exaggarate. Mind you, discounting personal animus, one bit I found fascinating was the (roughly contemporary) critique of the brutality of Prussian army training included here. It's a good reminder - like Ulrich Bräker's memoirs - that by no means everyone at the time drank the cool-aid, and it wasn't until the later 19th century that the rest of Germany had adopted the Prussians as role models in this regard, too. Something else that was unusual not just in terms of what came later was that the biographer has no animus against the French. At all. Granted, this is before Napoleon crosses the Rhine, ends the HRE for good and reorders the German principalities, but the 7 Years War already had brought on a lot of proto national poetry along "Go Fritz! Kick French ass!" post Rossbach, and the 1770s and 1780s had seen the explosion in German literature specifically rejecting the French models now (and instead going SHAKESPEARE IS SO MUCH COOLER), which not always came with literary arguments but also sometimes with "booh on the French" ones. But this biographer on the contrary at one point includes a flash forward beyond Seckendorff's life time to say how much the French army, now newly inspired by patriotism and no longer led by overpromoted nobility, recently amazed everyone. (This would be the allied armies aiming to restore the monarchs getting their backsides kicked by the revolutionary army of France.) If you're not Heinrich, this is not a common attitude to take in the 1790s.
(Unless our writer has as sneaking sympathy for the French Revolution and hopes it will spread, but that's not visible otherwise, what with all the talk about what a good Christian Seckendorff was.)
Biographer settling the "Seckendorff: Hot or not?" question with an Eddie Izzard sketch: I know, that's why I translated the statement. :)
Do we know how this guy is related to Seckendorff?
Haven't seen it mentioned anywhere in the passages I skimmed. However, since one of the few critiques he makes on his subject is that Seckendorff wasn't always appreciative enough of all the hard work his devoted nephew (that's the diarist) did after him in Berlin, and on that occasion says said nephew was one of the best, most noble people who ever lived, I'm tempted to assume he might have been this man's son.
Fritz quote on Seckendorff: this is of course the very quote which Seckendorff himself brings up when Lehndorff visits. (Which is in March 1759, if you want to look it up yourself now.) "He can't forgive the King calling him an ursurer in his memoirs. 'At least', he claims, 'I haven't been one towards the King, whom I've given 1500 Ducats which I never saw again.'"
Re: Advancing the Cause of Seckendorff
This is awesome. I am looking forward to this :D
Re: Advancing the Cause of Seckendorff
ahahaha, thank you for this!
The take on this I've always seen is that Seckendorff, who knew that Grumbkow was vulnerable to influence when drunk, used to encourage Grumbkow to drink in order to take advantage of him, and had to drink more than he wanted to in order to keep up. Which is not exactly different from what this author is saying, but with a slightly different slant.
*nods*
He was sordidly scheming; his manners were crude and rustic; lying had become so much second nature to him that he had lost the use of the truth. He was a usurer who sometimes appeared in the guise of a soldier, and sometimes in that of a diplomat.
Ah! Excellent, thank you! (I still haven't put in the fistulas -- I have been busy lately :P One of these days I promise I'll go back and edit these.)
Re: Advancing the Cause of Seckendorff
This writeup was hilarious!
Seckendorff did his best, even against that war criminal Austrian Trenck.
...okay, I find Trenck hilarious whenever he shows up, just for starters --
(Lehndorff: has no problem visiting Seckendorff in Magdeburg, though is not a military man with Seckendorffian loyalties. Definitely is not under the impression Heinrich called Seckendorff Papa.)
Hehhhhhh.
But these insignifciant features could be full of expression when the emotion of one of the most vivid and receptive souls that ever were formed them
This was sure Something :D Probably my favorite line, lol. Tell us how you really feel, biographer!
However, since (Seckendorff) often managed to extract secret information from Grumbkow when Grumbkow was blazingly drunk, and achieve results from the King over joyful cups for which he'd have asked in vain while sober, one should forgive him these diplomatic debaucheries.
Ha!
Meanwhile, I wish someone had rescued that poor dwarf.
Yeah. Okay, that part wasn't funny. :(