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Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 19
Yuletide nominations:
18th Century CE Federician RPF
Maria Theresia | Maria Theresa of Austria
Voltaire
Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Ernst Ahasverus von Lehndorff
Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802)
Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758)
Anna Amalie von Preußen | Anna Amalia of Prussia (1723-1787)
Catherine II of Russia
Hans Hermann von Katte
Peter Karl Christoph von Keith
Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf
August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758)
Circle of Voltaire RPF
Emilie du Chatelet
Jeanne Antoinette Poisson (Madame de Pompadour)
John Hervey (1696-1743)
Marie Louise Mignot Denis
Lady Mary Wortley-Montagu
Pierre Louis Moreau de Maupertuis
Armand de Vignerot du Plessis de Richelieu (1696-1788)
Francesco Algarotti
18th Century CE Federician RPF
Maria Theresia | Maria Theresa of Austria
Voltaire
Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Ernst Ahasverus von Lehndorff
Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802)
Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758)
Anna Amalie von Preußen | Anna Amalia of Prussia (1723-1787)
Catherine II of Russia
Hans Hermann von Katte
Peter Karl Christoph von Keith
Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf
August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758)
Circle of Voltaire RPF
Emilie du Chatelet
Jeanne Antoinette Poisson (Madame de Pompadour)
John Hervey (1696-1743)
Marie Louise Mignot Denis
Lady Mary Wortley-Montagu
Pierre Louis Moreau de Maupertuis
Armand de Vignerot du Plessis de Richelieu (1696-1788)
Francesco Algarotti
Re: Stratemann
And he really avoids unpleasantness and extolls the King and Queen as good parents whenever he can, hence no reported Fritz abuse before the escape attempt and only cryptic hints that things are tense between the two oldest and FW. There’s actually more about Wilhelmine’s pre-escape attempt problems with FW than those of Fritz, and that only in retrospect (i.e. in the description of FW being considerate to very pregnant with Ferdinand SD, bringing the kids to her, forgiving Wilhelmine and taking her to look after Heinrich). This is really different to all the other envoys, not just from the court of FW. For example, think of Valory remarking on Fritz ruling over his brothers with an iron thumb in his reports, or the French ambassador, after the MT/FS wedding, writing that no one other than MT likes FS at the Austrian court. (Even discounting the French bias - and they were deeply distrustful that the Lorrraine guy would use the Habsburg might to make a play for his former dukedom for years, so the envoy is invested in showing FS in a weak position - he’s reporting some genuine grumblings, though they were probably because from the point of the Austrian nobility, foreigner FS had undeservedly hit the jackpot by marrying himself into the Empire.)
You know what Mitchell wrote about Fritz and Heinrich. And Seckendorff the Younger certainly reports all the ups and downs of the 1730s Fritz/FW relationship as he observes and hears about it (i.e. sometimes it’s “Fritzchen” and paternal love, sometimes it’s snide remarks. And Mantteuffel provides with all the indiscreet utterings Fritz gave about his siblings and inability to get excited about EC. To say nothing of Suhm, back in the day, with the Hubertusday report. Now wasn’t that in 1728 as well, i.e. when Stratemann starts to write? Because I have this vision of Stratemann going “hey, Suhm, you were at the hunting, want to share some adorable stories about how the King is such great father to his children?”
Basically: what I’m saying is that Stratemann is clearly the scriptwriter for Fritz: The Disney Version. Or rather FW: The Disney Version. And since none of the others are, how on earth did they get along?
ETA: OMG.It just occured to me - the Hohenzollern as described by Stratemann was what EC thought she was marrying into. You know, that adorable family where Dad goes Christmas shopping for his kids, and if he neglects one, Mom is there to make her feel treasured, Mom and Dad love each other, of course, he's feeding her hot soup when she's sick, and sure, there was that tiny tiny escape attempt problem, but you know, Dad forgave Sonny almost immediately, and Oldest Daughter was sick, I swear, with her parents making sure she had a good long time to recover from that dreadful illness. And everyone is rejoicing and loving each other. /ETA
Dilettanti: at a guess, this sounds like Horace Walpole the younger was suffering from sour grapes, i.e. maybe he wanted to be a member, but they wouldn’t have him - he had been in Italy, remember, meeting Lady Mary during her years there and writing home disgustedly he heard about her menstruating so that she bled through to the bed of the inn, and this at her age, how disgusting, and she DANCED, too, etc, etc.
Garrick: we should also tell Cahn Garrick had been Johnson’s old pupil. They were from the same place, Lichfield, and Johnson had taught David Garrick and his brother when they were boys. This informed their relationship in both good and bad ways, depending on whether Johnson thought Garrick needed to be defended or was overly praised. (I.e. it was a “no one talks trash about Davy but me” thing.) After Garrick had produced Johnson’s play Irene, Garrick invited him backstage, but Johnson said: “No, Davy, I shall never come back. For the white bubbies and the silk stockings of your actresses excite my genitals.”
Re: Stratemann
Excellent detective work!
Now wasn’t that in 1728 as well, i.e. when Stratemann starts to write?
Indeed! Scanning that entry with my limited German and blackletter handicap, it seems to be "Bacchus reigned, everyone had a great time, the wine flowed; the feast was celebrated early* because Seckendorff has to leave for Saxony, oh, and there are about to be some executions of officers in Magdeburg soon..."
* I have been wondering about the date of Suhm's letter not matching the feast day, not even a little bit, for a year now! Thanks, Stratemann. :D
Because I have this vision of Stratemann going “hey, Suhm, you were at the hunting, want to share some adorable stories about how the King is such great father to his children?”
Ahahahahaaaaa *lolsob*. This is why I think Johnn, after Katte's execution, grabbed him by force and said, "LOOK. This Disney king of yours is Scar, not Mufasa." To which Stratemann wrote in his report, "Well, it could have been much worse, all sounds very just and noble to me..."
Also, re Suhm, let's remember it's not just Suhm's friend Fritz FW has been whaling on, but Suhm had grabbed his family and fled the country from FW's death threats just a year and a half earlier.
ETA: OMG.It just occured to me - the Hohenzollern as described by Stratemann was what EC thought she was marrying into.
OMG, you're right! :( At least Louise would have known what she was getting into...though I guess she married AW shortly after the happy Rheinsberg years, so we'll say she had at least an inkling. Though Ziebura, if I'm remembering correctly, says EC for a long time thought that things would go back to normal after Fritz was done with his glorious conquests...
Stratemann, see what you did with your Disney AU!
he had been in Italy, remember, meeting Lady Mary during her years there and writing home disgustedly he heard about her menstruating so that she bled through to the bed of the inn, and this at her age, how disgusting, and she DANCED, too, etc, etc.
Oh, right, that was him! It's hard to keep track of all the misogyny. :P
(I.e. it was a “no one talks trash about Davy but me” thing.)
Funnily enough, that's exactly how Damrosch introduces this anecdote:
Whatever tensions existed between Johnson and Garrick, everyone noticed that Johnson wouldn’t allow Garrick to be criticized by anyone but himself. When Boswell tried to get a rise out of him by suggesting that Garrick was too vain about his reputation, Johnson retorted, “Sir, it is wonderful how little Garrick assumes..."
Re: Stratemann
Seckendorff to the other envoys: And this, kids, is why you are all amateurs compared with me. Did FW or Fritz rearrange their funtime schedule for your benefit, eh? I'm telling you, that man loved me.
"Well, it could have been much worse, all sounds very just and noble to me..."
Richard Wolff (editor): This is why the Stratemann gives us the real FW, not the unlovingly and harshly drawn distortion the Margravine as a bad daughter drew in her memoirs.
Stratemann, see what you did with your Disney AU!
He conveniently died in 1739, so he never got to know King Fritz. Or the kind of Queen EC ended up as being.
Though Ziebura, if I'm remembering correctly, says EC for a long time thought that things would go back to normal after Fritz was done with his glorious conquests...
Well, given that she kept expecting him to send for her as late as the 7 Years War, I don't doubt it. In 1740, she probably told herself "Well, he's busy with all this new workload, but once that's settled with...", and when the first Silesian War kicked off in the December, she could tell herself "well, of course he's busy with his glorious conquests, but once he comes back..."
I mean, EC might have been the sole person who hadn't heard Fritz pre marriage had dragged his feet as long as he could and had not wanted her on any level, let alone that he told Grumbkow the marriage would be over once he was King. They had lived together in Rheinsberg, he'd been happy, and had written kind, considerate letters to her, praising her, even, when he was elsewhere. Yes, they probably did not have much of a sex life, if any, but she had no reason to assume they wouldn't continue living like this once he was King.
Then again: if her father did show her some of Stratemann's reports to prepare her for her new family, she must have figured out these were, err, just an aspect of the truth as soon as she met her future in-laws and SD and the sisters started sniggering. No wonder she hardly said a word.
It's also how Boswell introduces this anecdote in "Life of Johnson". Incidentally, I just realised that the same Mr. Croker who proudly censored the already censored Lord Hervey's memoirs some more in his edition also published the edition of Boswell's Life that Macauly pours much scorn on (only some of which is for Boswell himself) for not only censoring Boswell's Georgian frankness but interpolating Boswell's text with other Johnson biographies. Croker: the Henri de Catt of Victorian editors, clearly. It's a good thing Boswell's diaries weren't published until the 20th century.
Re: Stratemann
Suhm: Fritz gave up sleep to read my translation of Wolff! Which led him to recommend Wolff to AW, and, lo and behold, 6 months later, your guy FW is reading Wolff.
Mitchell: Probably, but
Lord Marischal: I know I technically don't count as an envoy *to* Fritz, but let's remember: you and I were both foreigners who met our respective kings and became BFFs *first*, then you were sent to Prussia as envoy *because* the king liked you. And I was sent as envoy by Fritz (G2 was hardly about to use me as envoy!) to France. So I say it counts that Fritz used to walk down the hill to eat with me at the Chinese Tea House instead of making me walk up the hill to Sanssouci.
Richard Wolff (editor): This is why the Stratemann gives us the real FW, not the unlovingly and harshly drawn distortion the Margravine as a bad daughter drew in her memoirs.
I don't know whether I want to say GAAHHH or GRRRR to this. Both. :P
He conveniently died in 1739, so he never got to know King Fritz. Or the kind of Queen EC ended up as being.
Stratemann and Grumbkow really picked a good year to die.
I mean, EC might have been the sole person who hadn't heard Fritz pre marriage had dragged his feet as long as he could and had not wanted her on any level, let alone that he told Grumbkow the marriage would be over once he was King.
Oof, you're right. This plus Polyanna Stratemann would explain a lot about her falling in love and holding out hope for so long. Even if you arrive and realize the family is dysfunctional, the guy *did* agree to marry you, and he is being nice to you, if distant...
Ouch.
It's also how Boswell introduces this anecdote in "Life of Johnson".
Well, that explains the coincidence, then. :)
Croker: the Henri de Catt of Victorian editors, clearly.
ZOMG. Oh, remember the 19th century Thiebault editor fleshing out the actual memoirs with passages from Wilhelmine, thus leading us down a garden path for a long time?
STOP IT.
Re: Stratemann
Poniatowski: Did any of you get deflowered by the sexiest monarch of Europe, Catherine the Great? You did not. Nor did you end up on a throne as a result, however tragically this ended up being. This isn't even a competition, people.
Re: Stratemann
Re: Stratemann
Re: Stratemann
As I recall from my lodgings in Magdeburg...I am the very model of a major envoy general.
Mitchell: You contradict yourself, sir. :P You got your country to pour money into Fritz's pockets, and what did you get out of it? An invasion of your richest province and an imprisonment of your person. We gave Fritz money and actually kept him from invading our province.
did Fritz do anything for Great Britain?
Mitchell: He sent us Ferdinand of Brunswick?
I am the very model of a major envoy general.
Mildred: I laughed!
Re: Stratemann
*chokes with laughter*
Re: Stratemann
That is pretty impressive.
I managed to be friendly with him and Heinrich at the same time without either one getting paranoid on me, and that I didn't have to waste lots of bribery money on this.
That is even more impressive! Mitchell for the win!
Did any of you get deflowered by the sexiest monarch of Europe, Catherine the Great? You did not.
HAHAHAHAHAHA omg okay this made me laugh SO HARD :D
Re: Stratemann
Oh noooooo. Poor EC. Though like you guys say downthread, Fritz did seem to treat her OK until he became king...
This informed their relationship in both good and bad ways, depending on whether Johnson thought Garrick needed to be defended or was overly praised. (I.e. it was a “no one talks trash about Davy but me” thing.)
hee :)