I'm on vacation, she says. I won't be able to do write-ups, she says. :D
Seriously, you are the best, and this is very in-character of you.
Her doctors should have pushed that loop of bowel back inside and hoped that the hole would heal, but instead they made a terrible error. They cut it off. Now Caroline’s digestive system was destroyed, and she took ten days to die.
Oooh nooooo! That sounds like the *worst*. Did they know it was a bowel? 'Cause this would make sense if they thought it was some random growth.
our Victorian editor childes Hervey for providing them (about a lady! and a Queen!) and proudly announces he protects us readers from them as much as he can.
*sigh*
I am really looking forward to Smith and Taylor's new and improved post-Victorian edition.
Considering most of said letters were burned by Caroline when G2 became King, the Royals think that Fritz must have gotten those letters from the Duchess of Kendal. (Aka Aunt Melusine to Katte, mistress of G1.) Otoh, Hervey thinks Fritz must have a spy in the palace, because the letters published are just those three not burned.
Hmmm. Reading between the lines, does this mean Melusine (lover of G1 and possibly therefore not a fan of G2?) and Fritz of Wales were on good terms?
G1 was a way harsher father, since he temporarily took G2's children from him during their biggest argument, while G2 generously declared he wouldn't do that to FoW.
Fritz of Prussia: And I'm with you on that! My younger siblings don't know how good they have it.
the famous "Marry again after my death"/ "No, I will have mistresses!" exchange in French between Caroline and G2, for which Hervey is the source
Hervey is the British Lehndorff counterpart in another way: our source for all these anecdotes we know!
The "Reminscences" are by Horace Walpole, son of Sir Robert Walpole and the other great bitchy memoirist of the Georgian era:
Which you will not be surprised to find in the library. They're so incredibly short the editor feels the need to apologize and flesh them out with a supplement of collected letters in order to make it long enough to be a short book instead of a long essay.
Et tu, Caroline? You owe your education to her, among other things. I feel let down.
But where would this family be without everyone bitching at everybody else?
So what is this estimation - that SD deserved contempt but not hate - based on? Perhaps all that begging for the English marriages struck him as pathetic, even if he didn't care enough to note it down, but that's the only thing I can think of.
The only thing I can think of is Wilhelmine's description of her that she gives the appearance of having more intellectual and artistic depth than she actually has, but 1) given that she's a queen, I'm not sure that more is expected of her? 2) I'm not sure how much Hervey would care about that. It is the sort of thing he could have picked up with out meeting her, though.
As to why G2 should have contempt and hate for his sister: search me.
I feel like with siblings, you don't necessarily need a reason? Sometimes someone just rubs you the wrong way, and with family, it's harder to resort to indifference. Actually, biologist Robert Sapolsky, who studies baboons in the wild, says that there are interpersonal (interbaboonal?) interactions that strike fellow baboons as weird--unless it's between two family members, and then they shrug it off.
I mean, clearly there's *some* kind of reason, and we may come across it, but it doesn't necessarily have to have been significant enough to be obvious to outsiders.
(Provided most circumstances stay the same.) Would Fritz of Prussia have had the fatal relationship and fallout with Hervey instead of Fritz of Wales?
Hmm. If we assume Fritz of Prussia stays in England until FW dies in 1740, instead of Amelia going to Prussia or both of them going to Hannover (maybe a successful esape to England?), then maybe. Only they fight over Algarotti instead of Anne Vane. :P
Algarotti: Guys, there's plenty of me to go around!
Would Caroline and G2 have accused Wilhelmine, too, of faking her pregnancy because their oldest surely can't sire a child?
Would Caroline and G2 have accused Wilhelmine and Fritz of Prussia of incest? It would have explained so much: how Wilhelmine got pregnant, why Fritz was present at the birth, why Fritz carried on the paternal tradition of beating up your first cousin rather than allow Wilhelmine to be moved... (Fritz of Prussia may not be much physically, but I say killer instinct and motivation count for a lot. Look at FW!)
Actually, let's assume Fritz of Prussia, living at close range with his sister's husband, doesn't really get along with Fritz of Wales. Let's further assume that G2 (plus Parliament, I guess) would have had to be pretty strongly pro-Fritz-of-Prussia to let a double marriage happen with Fritz living at the English court. (Husbands don't usually join their wives, especially when they are the heir to a throne. I have to assume successful escape, unless you have a better scenario.)
Also, G2 hates FW, something that Fritz can get behind.
So, G2-Fritz of Prussia alliance? [ETA: Until FW is dead and Fritz doesn't need him anymore, obviously.] This might affect the Wilhelmine treatment. Particularly when Fritz of Prussia beats up Fritz of Wales and father-in-law G2 slaps him on the back and says, "Attaboy." :P
Ah, the eternal soap opera!
Edited 2020-09-22 01:44 (UTC)
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
I'm on vacation, she says. I won't be able to do write-ups, she says. :D
Seriously, you are the best, and this is very in-character of you.
THIS :DDDDD
Hervey is the British Lehndorff counterpart in another way: our source for all these anecdotes we know!
:D
Only they fight over Algarotti instead of Anne Vane. :P
Ha! I... cannot argue with this.
So, G2-Fritz of Prussia alliance? [ETA: Until FW is dead and Fritz doesn't need him anymore, obviously.] This might affect the Wilhelmine treatment. Particularly when Fritz of Prussia beats up Fritz of Wales and father-in-law G2 slaps him on the back and says, "Attaboy." :P
*facepalm* This would totally happen, wouldn't it.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Particularly when Fritz of Prussia beats up Fritz of Wales and father-in-law G2 slaps him on the back and says, "Attaboy." :P
*facepalm* This would totally happen, wouldn't it.
I don't know if it *would* have, but I definitely like imagining it.
"My sister is not getting in a carriage while she's in labor, FIGHT ME."
Also, Fritz *would* be present at the birth.
Seriously, you are the best, and this is very in-character of you.
THIS :DDDDD
I was putting the Palladion write-up in Rheinsberg last night, and I noticed it was written in late April, a couple days after the "real life is taking over, can't perform Royal Reader duties." My reply to the write-up opened with, "I should have guessed that 'don't have time for Royal Reader duties' would amount to "still reading and reporting faster than we can keep up with." ;)" and your reply was "I know, I can't keep up! :)".
:D
We're so spoiled. <3
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
did they know it was a bowel - I suspect as well they originally thought it was a growth.
Hmmm. Reading between the lines, does this mean Melusine (lover of G1 and possibly therefore not a fan of G2?) and Fritz of Wales were on good terms?
You know, I think that's very likely. Because while Fritz of Wales didn't see his parents and siblings for fourteen years, he did see his grandfather G1 whenever G1 was visiting Hannover during his reign, and Melusine was with him on those occasions. Also, Horace Walpole son of Sir Robert Walpole (G2's PM for years and years) claims that Melusine was tight with the opposition to his Dad, who was also a political enemy of FoW's (the more so the more Fritz of Wales drifted towards said opposition).
G2 having contempt and hate for his sister SD: starting Horace Walpole's memoir, I am stunned to discover HW claims that SD, daughter of G1, was "a staunch Jacobite" all her life. Now, this is the first time I've come across this claim - certainly no biographer and memoirist we've come across so far on the German side claims that, and it makes absolutely no sense in terms of SD's most dear ambition (her daughter as Queen of England, Fritz married to a Hannover-British princess and preferably governing Hannover). So I feel safe to say it's not true. However, I'm perfectly willing to believe Horace W. heard it from his primary source of G2 stories, to wit, G2's official English mistress Lady Suffolk. (Who was increasingly deaf, btw.) and didn't question it further, because HW, of a generation later than Hervey, lived until 1791 and when writing his memoir has already outlived Fritz of Prussia (whom he refers to as the late great King of Prussia). Meaning: he probably knew about Fritz favoring the Scottish Keiths, who actually were Jacobites, and the story of sending George Keith as ambassador to Versailles despite the insult to uncle G2. Maybe when that happened G2 said something like "typical! I bet his mother put him up to it!" and thus the English court, unfamiliar with SD as a person for the most part, drew this "aha! SD the Jacobite!" conclusion.
Algarotti: might reconsider Lady Mary as an option, because Hervey vs Fritz of Prussia is bound to get way uglier than his rl triangle. Or maybe he elopes with Andrew Mitchell. :)
Your scenario: sounds very likely except for one thing: what does Fritz of Prussia do the first time G2 disses the Best of All Mothers in his presence?
Edited 2020-09-22 20:47 (UTC)
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Meaning: he probably knew about Fritz favoring the Scottish Keiths, who actually were Jacobites, and the story of sending George Keith as ambassador to Versailles despite the insult to uncle G2. Maybe when that happened G2 said something like "typical! I bet his mother put him up to it!" and thus the English court, unfamiliar with SD as a person for the most part, drew this "aha! SD the Jacobite!" conclusion.
Yeah, this strikes me as being akin to Thiébault claiming FW totally wanted one son to be HRE and the other King in Prussia! It makes perfect sense if you don't know just how relentlessly committed FW was to his religious beliefs.
Speaking of SD's politics, I keep seeing in places like Ziebura and Oster that she was disappointed that Fritz didn't let her influence him politically. Is there evidence for this, or just an assumption?
Algarotti: might reconsider Lady Mary as an option, because Hervey vs Fritz of Prussia is bound to get way uglier than his rl triangle. Or maybe he elopes with Andrew Mitchell. :)
Ha. I advise eloping. The farther the better.
Lady Mary: Will go to Japan as long as you're coming too!
what does Fritz of Prussia do the first time G2 disses the Best of All Mothers in his presence?
I did think of that when I was writing that up, and I'm not sure. Part of it depends on what G2 says, and how G2 responds when Fritz starts defending her, and I just don't know.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Speaking of SD's politics, I keep seeing in places like Ziebura and Oster that she was disappointed that Fritz didn't let her influence him politically. Is there evidence for this, or just an assumption?
I've seen this, too, starting with good old Preuß and Koser, but never with a footnote saying "see letter X" or "memoirs y", or "ambassadorial report Z". So until I see a citation, I'm going with "assumption", based on the fact that SD had these political battles with FW for all those years and, I suspect, also a very 19th century moralistic desire to see her punished in some fashion. "She got what she wanted, only to find out her son wasn't her puppet at all but his father's worthy successor and our national hero!", that kind of thing. (Because SD is the outright villain in Der Vater, that's certainly how this novel plays it.) But, you know, I never had the impression SD cared about Prussian politics as such, other than "English marriages for my kids, Grumbkow & Seckendorff defeated". The marriages were none-issues by the time Fritz became King, Grumbkow was dead, and Seckendorff far away, and Fritz made it very clear that SD, not EC was the first lady of Prussia, so my impression was she revelled in this and was otherwise an admiring mother (to Fritz) applauding his mighty deeds, bossy only when it came to his wardrobe.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Seriously, you are the best, and this is very in-character of you.
Her doctors should have pushed that loop of bowel back inside and hoped that the hole would heal, but instead they made a terrible error. They cut it off. Now Caroline’s digestive system was destroyed, and she took ten days to die.
Oooh nooooo! That sounds like the *worst*. Did they know it was a bowel? 'Cause this would make sense if they thought it was some random growth.
our Victorian editor childes Hervey for providing them (about a lady! and a Queen!) and proudly announces he protects us readers from them as much as he can.
*sigh*
I am really looking forward to Smith and Taylor's new and improved post-Victorian edition.
Considering most of said letters were burned by Caroline when G2 became King, the Royals think that Fritz must have gotten those letters from the Duchess of Kendal. (Aka Aunt Melusine to Katte, mistress of G1.) Otoh, Hervey thinks Fritz must have a spy in the palace, because the letters published are just those three not burned.
Hmmm. Reading between the lines, does this mean Melusine (lover of G1 and possibly therefore not a fan of G2?) and Fritz of Wales were on good terms?
G1 was a way harsher father, since he temporarily took G2's children from him during their biggest argument, while G2 generously declared he wouldn't do that to FoW.
Fritz of Prussia: And I'm with you on that! My younger siblings don't know how good they have it.
the famous "Marry again after my death"/ "No, I will have mistresses!" exchange in French between Caroline and G2, for which Hervey is the source
Hervey is the British Lehndorff counterpart in another way: our source for all these anecdotes we know!
The "Reminscences" are by Horace Walpole, son of Sir Robert Walpole and the other great bitchy memoirist of the Georgian era:
Which you will not be surprised to find in the library. They're so incredibly short the editor feels the need to apologize and flesh them out with a supplement of collected letters in order to make it long enough to be a short book instead of a long essay.
Et tu, Caroline? You owe your education to her, among other things. I feel let down.
But where would this family be without everyone bitching at everybody else?
So what is this estimation - that SD deserved contempt but not hate - based on? Perhaps all that begging for the English marriages struck him as pathetic, even if he didn't care enough to note it down, but that's the only thing I can think of.
The only thing I can think of is Wilhelmine's description of her that she gives the appearance of having more intellectual and artistic depth than she actually has, but 1) given that she's a queen, I'm not sure that more is expected of her? 2) I'm not sure how much Hervey would care about that. It is the sort of thing he could have picked up with out meeting her, though.
As to why G2 should have contempt and hate for his sister: search me.
I feel like with siblings, you don't necessarily need a reason? Sometimes someone just rubs you the wrong way, and with family, it's harder to resort to indifference. Actually, biologist Robert Sapolsky, who studies baboons in the wild, says that there are interpersonal (interbaboonal?) interactions that strike fellow baboons as weird--unless it's between two family members, and then they shrug it off.
I mean, clearly there's *some* kind of reason, and we may come across it, but it doesn't necessarily have to have been significant enough to be obvious to outsiders.
(Provided most circumstances stay the same.) Would Fritz of Prussia have had the fatal relationship and fallout with Hervey instead of Fritz of Wales?
Hmm. If we assume Fritz of Prussia stays in England until FW dies in 1740, instead of Amelia going to Prussia or both of them going to Hannover (maybe a successful esape to England?), then maybe. Only they fight over Algarotti instead of Anne Vane. :P
Algarotti: Guys, there's plenty of me to go around!
Would Caroline and G2 have accused Wilhelmine, too, of faking her pregnancy because their oldest surely can't sire a child?
Would Caroline and G2 have accused Wilhelmine and Fritz of Prussia of incest? It would have explained so much: how Wilhelmine got pregnant, why Fritz was present at the birth, why Fritz carried on the paternal tradition of beating up your first cousin rather than allow Wilhelmine to be moved... (Fritz of Prussia may not be much physically, but I say killer instinct and motivation count for a lot. Look at FW!)
Actually, let's assume Fritz of Prussia, living at close range with his sister's husband, doesn't really get along with Fritz of Wales. Let's further assume that G2 (plus Parliament, I guess) would have had to be pretty strongly pro-Fritz-of-Prussia to let a double marriage happen with Fritz living at the English court. (Husbands don't usually join their wives, especially when they are the heir to a throne. I have to assume successful escape, unless you have a better scenario.)
Also, G2 hates FW, something that Fritz can get behind.
So, G2-Fritz of Prussia alliance? [ETA: Until FW is dead and Fritz doesn't need him anymore, obviously.] This might affect the Wilhelmine treatment. Particularly when Fritz of Prussia beats up Fritz of Wales and father-in-law G2 slaps him on the back and says, "Attaboy." :P
Ah, the eternal soap opera!
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Seriously, you are the best, and this is very in-character of you.
THIS :DDDDD
Hervey is the British Lehndorff counterpart in another way: our source for all these anecdotes we know!
:D
Only they fight over Algarotti instead of Anne Vane. :P
Ha! I... cannot argue with this.
So, G2-Fritz of Prussia alliance? [ETA: Until FW is dead and Fritz doesn't need him anymore, obviously.] This might affect the Wilhelmine treatment. Particularly when Fritz of Prussia beats up Fritz of Wales and father-in-law G2 slaps him on the back and says, "Attaboy." :P
*facepalm* This would totally happen, wouldn't it.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
*facepalm* This would totally happen, wouldn't it.
I don't know if it *would* have, but I definitely like imagining it.
"My sister is not getting in a carriage while she's in labor, FIGHT ME."
Also, Fritz *would* be present at the birth.
Seriously, you are the best, and this is very in-character of you.
THIS :DDDDD
I was putting the Palladion write-up in Rheinsberg last night, and I noticed it was written in late April, a couple days after the "real life is taking over, can't perform Royal Reader duties." My reply to the write-up opened with, "I should have guessed that 'don't have time for Royal Reader duties' would amount to "still reading and reporting faster than we can keep up with." ;)" and your reply was "I know, I can't keep up! :)".
:D
We're so spoiled. <3
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Hmmm. Reading between the lines, does this mean Melusine (lover of G1 and possibly therefore not a fan of G2?) and Fritz of Wales were on good terms?
You know, I think that's very likely. Because while Fritz of Wales didn't see his parents and siblings for fourteen years, he did see his grandfather G1 whenever G1 was visiting Hannover during his reign, and Melusine was with him on those occasions. Also, Horace Walpole son of Sir Robert Walpole (G2's PM for years and years) claims that Melusine was tight with the opposition to his Dad, who was also a political enemy of FoW's (the more so the more Fritz of Wales drifted towards said opposition).
G2 having contempt and hate for his sister SD: starting Horace Walpole's memoir, I am stunned to discover HW claims that SD, daughter of G1, was "a staunch Jacobite" all her life. Now, this is the first time I've come across this claim - certainly no biographer and memoirist we've come across so far on the German side claims that, and it makes absolutely no sense in terms of SD's most dear ambition (her daughter as Queen of England, Fritz married to a Hannover-British princess and preferably governing Hannover). So I feel safe to say it's not true. However, I'm perfectly willing to believe Horace W. heard it from his primary source of G2 stories, to wit, G2's official English mistress Lady Suffolk. (Who was increasingly deaf, btw.) and didn't question it further, because HW, of a generation later than Hervey, lived until 1791 and when writing his memoir has already outlived Fritz of Prussia (whom he refers to as the late great King of Prussia). Meaning: he probably knew about Fritz favoring the Scottish Keiths, who actually were Jacobites, and the story of sending George Keith as ambassador to Versailles despite the insult to uncle G2. Maybe when that happened G2 said something like "typical! I bet his mother put him up to it!" and thus the English court, unfamiliar with SD as a person for the most part, drew this "aha! SD the Jacobite!" conclusion.
Algarotti: might reconsider Lady Mary as an option, because Hervey vs Fritz of Prussia is bound to get way uglier than his rl triangle. Or maybe he elopes with Andrew Mitchell. :)
Your scenario: sounds very likely except for one thing: what does Fritz of Prussia do the first time G2 disses the Best of All Mothers in his presence?
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Yeah, this strikes me as being akin to Thiébault claiming FW totally wanted one son to be HRE and the other King in Prussia! It makes perfect sense if you don't know just how relentlessly committed FW was to his religious beliefs.
Speaking of SD's politics, I keep seeing in places like Ziebura and Oster that she was disappointed that Fritz didn't let her influence him politically. Is there evidence for this, or just an assumption?
Algarotti: might reconsider Lady Mary as an option, because Hervey vs Fritz of Prussia is bound to get way uglier than his rl triangle. Or maybe he elopes with Andrew Mitchell. :)
Ha. I advise eloping. The farther the better.
Lady Mary: Will go to Japan as long as you're coming too!
what does Fritz of Prussia do the first time G2 disses the Best of All Mothers in his presence?
I did think of that when I was writing that up, and I'm not sure. Part of it depends on what G2 says, and how G2 responds when Fritz starts defending her, and I just don't know.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
I've seen this, too, starting with good old Preuß and Koser, but never with a footnote saying "see letter X" or "memoirs y", or "ambassadorial report Z". So until I see a citation, I'm going with "assumption", based on the fact that SD had these political battles with FW for all those years and, I suspect, also a very 19th century moralistic desire to see her punished in some fashion. "She got what she wanted, only to find out her son wasn't her puppet at all but his father's worthy successor and our national hero!", that kind of thing. (Because SD is the outright villain in Der Vater, that's certainly how this novel plays it.) But, you know, I never had the impression SD cared about Prussian politics as such, other than "English marriages for my kids, Grumbkow & Seckendorff defeated". The marriages were none-issues by the time Fritz became King, Grumbkow was dead, and Seckendorff far away, and Fritz made it very clear that SD, not EC was the first lady of Prussia, so my impression was she revelled in this and was otherwise an admiring mother (to Fritz) applauding his mighty deeds, bossy only when it came to his wardrobe.