I've totally lost track of where we were in comments, mildred, so I'm just going to go by section :) This seemed like kind of a long section, but I guess seven years is a long time!
When Louise found out about this, she told her brother sadly and bitterly: His silence stems from the fact that he has too much to write, especially to my sister-in-law Wilhelmine.
Aw, Louise. <3
Elisabeth Christine let everyone feel through her imperious nature that she was finally the only queen.
Is this right? Huh. I guess I can understan why EC might want to punch down herself a little for a brief moment until Fritz puts a stop to that
Aw, I remember selenak telling us about that passage where Lehndorff is rolling his eyes that Mina is so upset about Heinrich's wound. It's still pretty funny to me :P
I was really comforted and satisfied that [I am] popular. I don't know how I earned this.
Awww, Louise! No wonder everyone thinks she's so nice <3
He had the look on the face of an angel that he really is now, Louise informed her brother, maybe it is a good thing that he died in his innocence, without knowing anything about the misery and grief in this world. But for a mother's tender heart, it is a terrible pain.
:(((((( ...what a year for her :( I can see how she might think that maybe he was well out of it :( But still so sad :((
Okay, Es war sein Verlobungsring -- this is translated as "engagement ring"? Did AW give Mina his engagement ring?? I mean, I guess it's not quite as bad as giving her his kids, but...
...Geez Heinrich, WHY ARE YOU SO MEAN TO MINA. Rhetorical question. But really. Still glad we're reading this after the other Zieburas!
Edited 2020-09-15 05:31 (UTC)
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Elisabeth Christine let everyone feel through her imperious nature that she was finally the only queen.
Is this right? Huh. I guess I can understan why EC might want to punch down herself a little for a brief moment
Ziebura has this from Lehndorff, who certainly had that impression directly after SD's death. (I think I told you about this? He even has an argument re: SD's funeral arrangements with her, and she apologizes the next day, but this doesn't make him feel much warmer towards her. This series of entries are the ones containing the "she'd have made an excellent burgher's wife" dig, amidst raving about how great SD was at Queendom.) I was a tad sceptical during my original reading of the diaries, but Sophie von Voss backs him up here - i.e. EC after SD's death trying to be more authoritarian (and failing at it) - so now I think it was another case of damned if you do, damned of you don't for her. (Her mother-in-law had critisized her as not sufficiently regal, after all.)
Aw, I remember selenak telling us about that passage where Lehndorff is rolling his eyes that Mina is so upset about Heinrich's wound. It's still pretty funny to me :P
Lehndorff is usually complimentary about Mina, and during the time they lived together in Heinrich's Berlin residence (remember, when Lehndorff had no more Berlin place but wanted to live there to be near his sons and Heinrich told him to move into his town residence with his family, ca. 1799), he had tea with her every day- but every now and then you get a remark like this, complete with an aside that she hears perfectly well and yet they had to repeat to her three times that Heinrich was fine before she got up again. You can practically hear him think "if anyone gets to faint at the prospect of Heinrich being wounded, it's me, and I don't do it, plus we all now how things are between you two, so cut the dramatics!"
Did AW give Mina his engagement ring?? I mean, I guess it's not quite as bad as giving her his kids, but...
Yes, he did. It was also the ring he was wearing all the time. The fact that he did made the rounds quickly, since Lehndorff knows about this detail even before Heinrich's January visit to Berlin as executor of AW's will.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
so now I think it was another case of damned if you do, damned of you don't for her. (Her mother-in-law had critisized her as not sufficiently regal, after all.)
Yeah, first she got criticized for not talking, then she got criticized for talking too much and not having anything interesting to say. Then she's either not regal enough or too imperious.
Sucks to be her. :/
You can practically hear him think "if anyone gets to faint at the prospect of Heinrich being wounded, it's me, and I don't do it, plus we all now how things are between you two, so cut the dramatics!"
This is ringing a bell now that you mention it!
Ziebura seems to think that Wilhelmine, like EC, had the misfortune of actually falling in love with, or at least developing feelings for, her husband.
No pity for the wives indeed. :(
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
I was a tad sceptical during my original reading of the diaries, but Sophie von Voss backs him up here - i.e. EC after SD's death trying to be more authoritarian (and failing at it)
I just got to the part where Amalie writes the "we all suck, except Louise, she's an angel" letter, and she too says that EC is authoritarian.
I remember when you first read this book to us and titled your post "Why you should never marry a Hohenzollern." I guess that's what Amalie titled her letter.
I like how she finishes it, "Let's be real: I probably suck too. [I was raised by Hohenzollerns, after all.]"
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Yes, Amalie ending her letter this way is what makes it more than an exercise in venting or even spite, and gave me a clue to her personality.
Lehndorff reports that Amalie and EC had their clashes when locked up together in Magdeburg during the various evacuations, with two main motives - when churchgoing, Amalie went to Reformed service, EC went to Lutheran church "and thus we have a schisma" said Lehndorff. (Remember, the Hohenzollern were Calvinists, not Lutherans, though the majority of their subjects were Lutherans, and so were the Braunschweig in-laws. And point of contention no2. was that Fritz kept asking for Amalie when wanting visitors during the war, never for EC, which was just humiliating. (Note that Heinrich did the same thing - as Ziebura points out, while his wife had to ask repeateadly for her household budget, he was worrying in letters to Ferdinand about his sister, and when visiting Berlin for the first time in years after AW's death, he asked Amalie to meet him ahead of his arrival in Berlin, not Mina.) I wouldn't be surprised if EC emphasizing that SHE was the Queen was connected to this.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Yes, I loved that she finished it like that <3 and I thought of your take on her when I read that.
"and thus we have a schisma" said Lehndorff.
Hee. (Also, seeing a quote from him after reading all this malicious stuff from Hervey is so refreshing!)
Remember, the Hohenzollern were Calvinists, not Lutherans, though the majority of their subjects were Lutherans, and so were the Braunschweig in-laws.
Ah! I had forgotten, thank you. This is one of those things I really should have remembered, given all the predestination and all -- although I guess part of this is that I tend to conflate "saved by God alone" with "predestination," despite valiant efforts by my spouse's (Lutheran) church members to inform me that this is Not Right :)
Also, now that I'm finally commenting on this part: HEINRICH. UGH. YOU ARE THE WORST. Well, it's good to get the problematic part of my problematic fave. I guess.
Oh no, wait, Fritz is also THE WORST:
The king invited them, but not his wife, to Potsdam and to the Turkish tent, where he had refreshments served to the ladies who wanted to watch the military parades in Berlin.
So let me get this straight... he invited his wife's sister but not him?? Good thing Louise was an angel :P
Edited 2020-09-20 05:14 (UTC)
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
You can practically hear him think "if anyone gets to faint at the prospect of Heinrich being wounded, it's me, and I don't do it, plus we all now how things are between you two, so cut the dramatics!"
:D This is why it's funny! I love Lehndorff <3
So I feel like there is something sort of especially terrible about it being his engagement ring that he gave Mina. Not sure why I am fixated on this when the kid handoff thing was obviously way worse -- okay, yeah, probably so I don't have to look as hard at that part :P
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Okay, so my biggest comment on the Seven Years' War section is:
Ablenkung brachten kleine Ausflüge nach Fredersdorf zu den Podewils
"Little excursions to Fredersdorf at the Podewils' place brought some distraction."
I had to look this up: Podewils I know as Fritz's foreign minister, but my eyebrows flew up at Fredersdorf. Turns out that it's actually the name of Podewils' estate outside Berlin. Which makes sense, since all the -dorf(f)s we love or love to hate are etymologically -"village"s. The Podewils family mausoleum that our Podewils' son built is still there today, in Fredersdorf where lots of people live and commute to Berlin for work.
* This also led me to notice that Ziebura's index has a mistake: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf is listed as EC's brother Albert's chamberlain instead of Fritz's. I can see where, if you were reading the sentence where he shows up, you could parse "seinem" as referring to Albert instead of Fritz, but yeah, the index must have been put together by an editor or assistant who didn't know too terribly much about Fritz.
* AW trying to tell Mina about his feelings about his approaching death, her trying to cheer him up, and him withdrawing and realizing he had to lie to her too: I *knew* it! People who are dying often have a very hard time getting the support they need from the people around them, because those people are overwhelmed by emotions of their own. This is why I said I'd be totally behind AW if he chose to delude everyone to keep from having to perform emotional labor for them, as opposed to for their own good.
:(
* cahn have you been noticing Ziebura's frequent "despite several bloodlettings, so-and-so didn't get better"? You picked up on my comparable line in "Pulvis et Umbra", except that mine was meant to be humorous irony obvious to the reader (as it was to you), if not to the character whose POV this is, yet Ziebura seems like she's playing it straight? But it's really hard for me to tell that kind of nuance in German, so maybe not.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
AW trying to tell Mina about his feelings about his approaching death, her trying to cheer him up, and him withdrawing and realizing he had to lie to her too
I noticed that :( Yeah, poor AW :(
have you been noticing Ziebura's frequent "despite several bloodlettings, so-and-so didn't get better"?
YES I HAVE. Every time I'm like... man, I am so glad I don't live in the 18th century! Medical care has its own problems these days, but at least they don't BLEED YOU.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
No kidding. Re: Fredersdorf the village, Lehndorff, who was related to the Podewils, went there several times a year every year, which means searching for the name "Fredersdorf" will get you a lot of holidaying, as I learned early on. :)
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
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Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
When Louise found out about this, she told her brother sadly and bitterly: His silence stems from the fact that he has too much to write, especially to my sister-in-law Wilhelmine.
Aw, Louise. <3
Elisabeth Christine let everyone feel through her imperious nature that she was finally the only queen.
Is this right? Huh. I guess I can understan why EC might want to punch down herself a little for a brief moment
until Fritz puts a stop to thatAw, I remember
I was really comforted and satisfied that [I am] popular. I don't know how I earned this.
Awww, Louise! No wonder everyone thinks she's so nice <3
He had the look on the face of an angel that he really is now, Louise informed her brother, maybe it is a good thing that he died in his innocence, without knowing anything about the misery and grief in this world. But for a mother's tender heart, it is a terrible pain.
:((((((
...what a year for her :( I can see how she might think that maybe he was well out of it :( But still so sad :((
Okay, Es war sein Verlobungsring -- this is translated as "engagement ring"? Did AW give Mina his engagement ring?? I mean, I guess it's not quite as bad as giving her his kids, but...
...Geez Heinrich, WHY ARE YOU SO MEAN TO MINA. Rhetorical question. But really. Still glad we're reading this after the other Zieburas!
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Is this right? Huh. I guess I can understan why EC might want to punch down herself a little for a brief moment
Ziebura has this from Lehndorff, who certainly had that impression directly after SD's death. (I think I told you about this? He even has an argument re: SD's funeral arrangements with her, and she apologizes the next day, but this doesn't make him feel much warmer towards her. This series of entries are the ones containing the "she'd have made an excellent burgher's wife" dig, amidst raving about how great SD was at Queendom.) I was a tad sceptical during my original reading of the diaries, but Sophie von Voss backs him up here - i.e. EC after SD's death trying to be more authoritarian (and failing at it) - so now I think it was another case of damned if you do, damned of you don't for her. (Her mother-in-law had critisized her as not sufficiently regal, after all.)
Aw, I remember
Lehndorff is usually complimentary about Mina, and during the time they lived together in Heinrich's Berlin residence (remember, when Lehndorff had no more Berlin place but wanted to live there to be near his sons and Heinrich told him to move into his town residence with his family, ca. 1799), he had tea with her every day- but every now and then you get a remark like this, complete with an aside that she hears perfectly well and yet they had to repeat to her three times that Heinrich was fine before she got up again. You can practically hear him think "if anyone gets to faint at the prospect of Heinrich being wounded, it's me, and I don't do it, plus we all now how things are between you two, so cut the dramatics!"
Did AW give Mina his engagement ring?? I mean, I guess it's not quite as bad as giving her his kids, but...
Yes, he did. It was also the ring he was wearing all the time. The fact that he did made the rounds quickly, since Lehndorff knows about this detail even before Heinrich's January visit to Berlin as executor of AW's will.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Yeah, first she got criticized for not talking, then she got criticized for talking too much and not having anything interesting to say. Then she's either not regal enough or too imperious.
Sucks to be her. :/
You can practically hear him think "if anyone gets to faint at the prospect of Heinrich being wounded, it's me, and I don't do it, plus we all now how things are between you two, so cut the dramatics!"
This is ringing a bell now that you mention it!
Ziebura seems to think that Wilhelmine, like EC, had the misfortune of actually falling in love with, or at least developing feelings for, her husband.
No pity for the wives indeed. :(
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
I just got to the part where Amalie writes the "we all suck, except Louise, she's an angel" letter, and she too says that EC is authoritarian.
I remember when you first read this book to us and titled your post "Why you should never marry a Hohenzollern." I guess that's what Amalie titled her letter.
I like how she finishes it, "Let's be real: I probably suck too. [I was raised by Hohenzollerns, after all.]"
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Lehndorff reports that Amalie and EC had their clashes when locked up together in Magdeburg during the various evacuations, with two main motives - when churchgoing, Amalie went to Reformed service, EC went to Lutheran church "and thus we have a schisma" said Lehndorff. (Remember, the Hohenzollern were Calvinists, not Lutherans, though the majority of their subjects were Lutherans, and so were the Braunschweig in-laws. And point of contention no2. was that Fritz kept asking for Amalie when wanting visitors during the war, never for EC, which was just humiliating. (Note that Heinrich did the same thing - as Ziebura points out, while his wife had to ask repeateadly for her household budget, he was worrying in letters to Ferdinand about his sister, and when visiting Berlin for the first time in years after AW's death, he asked Amalie to meet him ahead of his arrival in Berlin, not Mina.) I wouldn't be surprised if EC emphasizing that SHE was the Queen was connected to this.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
"and thus we have a schisma" said Lehndorff.
Hee. (Also, seeing a quote from him after reading all this malicious stuff from Hervey is so refreshing!)
Remember, the Hohenzollern were Calvinists, not Lutherans, though the majority of their subjects were Lutherans, and so were the Braunschweig in-laws.
Ah! I had forgotten, thank you. This is one of those things I really should have remembered, given all the predestination and all -- although I guess part of this is that I tend to conflate "saved by God alone" with "predestination," despite valiant efforts by my spouse's (Lutheran) church members to inform me that this is Not Right :)
Also, now that I'm finally commenting on this part: HEINRICH. UGH. YOU ARE THE WORST. Well, it's good to get the problematic part of my problematic fave. I guess.
Oh no, wait, Fritz is also THE WORST:
The king invited them, but not his wife, to Potsdam and to the Turkish tent, where he had refreshments served to the ladies who wanted to watch the military parades in Berlin.
So let me get this straight... he invited his wife's sister but not him?? Good thing Louise was an angel :P
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
:D This is why it's funny! I love Lehndorff <3
So I feel like there is something sort of especially terrible about it being his engagement ring that he gave Mina. Not sure why I am fixated on this when the kid handoff thing was obviously way worse -- okay, yeah, probably so I don't have to look as hard at that part :P
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Ablenkung brachten kleine Ausflüge nach Fredersdorf zu den Podewils
"Little excursions to Fredersdorf at the Podewils' place brought some distraction."
I had to look this up: Podewils I know as Fritz's foreign minister, but my eyebrows flew up at Fredersdorf. Turns out that it's actually the name of Podewils' estate outside Berlin. Which makes sense, since all the -dorf(f)s we love or love to hate are etymologically -"village"s. The Podewils family mausoleum that our Podewils' son built is still there today, in Fredersdorf where lots of people live and commute to Berlin for work.
* This also led me to notice that Ziebura's index has a mistake: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf is listed as EC's brother Albert's chamberlain instead of Fritz's. I can see where, if you were reading the sentence where he shows up, you could parse "seinem" as referring to Albert instead of Fritz, but yeah, the index must have been put together by an editor or assistant who didn't know too terribly much about Fritz.
* AW trying to tell Mina about his feelings about his approaching death, her trying to cheer him up, and him withdrawing and realizing he had to lie to her too: I *knew* it! People who are dying often have a very hard time getting the support they need from the people around them, because those people are overwhelmed by emotions of their own. This is why I said I'd be totally behind AW if he chose to delude everyone to keep from having to perform emotional labor for them, as opposed to for their own good.
:(
*
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
I noticed that :( Yeah, poor AW :(
have you been noticing Ziebura's frequent "despite several bloodlettings, so-and-so didn't get better"?
YES I HAVE. Every time I'm like... man, I am so glad I don't live in the 18th century! Medical care has its own problems these days, but at least they don't BLEED YOU.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War