cahn: (Default)
cahn ([personal profile] cahn) wrote2020-09-14 09:24 pm
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Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 18

...apparently reading group is the way to get lots of comments quickly?
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-09-30 10:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Leafing through these reports, I keep thinking "OMG Mildred has to see this"

Lol, I checked my email this morning right before I had two consecutive meetings, and when I got to this line and saw the length of the write-up, I had to stop, because otherwise I wasn't going to be able to focus on work. :P

Just from flipping through the pdf before handing it over, I saw that Stratemann looked like he had potentially interesting stuff on the royal family, and of course the 1728-1733 dates meant that I knew I didn't have to ask you to tell me about the parts that you knew would be Relevant to My Interests (TM). ;)

But now I have read this, and wooooow.

First I have to say, you go, eight-year-old AW! You tell your dad off!

What then happened should rather be covered with silence

Um. I hope this doesn't but fear that it does mean that AW got a beating. :(

Also, Brunswick envoy guy, we count on you for Rococo frankness! Silence is for Victorians. :P

But yeah, poor AW. He had to intercede for a long fellow, then FW did that "I'm going to cut off your fingers" joke that it took AW a minute to decide was a joke, and now Katte. :/

Ihro Hoheit haben nicht Ursache um Vergebung zu bitten, weil Sie mir nichts zu wieder gethan und ich selbst meines Todes Ursache bin.

Yet another slight variant on the last words! The new part is "I myself am the cause of my death." This is consistent with "Not Fritz's fault, but also not FW's fault, definitely God punishing me for my ambitions." [ETA: To be fair, he didn't actually say "punish", he went for something a little less self-critical. What he said, as I recall, was that God was using him as a tool in his grand divine plan to illustrate the vanity of human ambitions, which is theologically different.]

I'm still with [personal profile] cahn that Hans Heinrich is trying to forgive FW, not Fritz. :P

So how come his intel on the execution is suddenly dead on? S., you are a man of mystery.

My theory is that the Danish ambassador, von Johnn, who wrote *his* envoy report on November 11, and who evidently leaked the letters and an eyewitness description to Cologne, so that EVERYONE could know about it, was going, "You know what he did? You know what that bastard did?" to his fellow envoys. November 11 to November 25 is two weeks for Stratemann to have gotten the info, directly or indirectly, from the guy who wanted everyone to know what FW did.

Okay, so my German reading list just got a little longer. :P Thank you for this!

ETA: OH WAIT. I just realized that November 25 is when you said S reads the letters; November 11 is the date of the Katte execution entry. WELL THEN. Seckendorff's and Dickens' envoy reports also date to November 11, per Koser. I have to conclude at this point that all the envoys found out that day, or the day before. And I'm starting to suspect some of them were talking to each other.

Oh, that's right, Lavisse says Sauveterre obviously based his execution report on Dickens', because he didn't have good intel of his own. (Sauveterre was Rottembourg's secretary, who took over for Rottembourg after he left, and was apparently much less proactive than his former boss.) So if Dickens is talking to Sauveterre and the latter is basing his report on the former's, and Stratemann's is very similar to von Johnn's and *suddenly* S has very detailed info and access to letters where before he had nothing...I'm going with: Katte's execution was a shocking event that got everyone gossiping, and people shared notes.

Moreover, the Danish envoys were, from what I've seen, unhappy with FW and vice versa during 1730 for a number of reasons (including the usual FW recruiting in their territory reason). Since von Johnn's eyewitness report is nearly verbatim the same as the Cologne pamphlet, even more so than Stratemann's, I'm in agreement with Koser that Johnn is the most likely leaker, and since Løvenørn is suspected of tipping off Katte, I can't imagine Johnn would hesitate to share this info, which was, after all, meant to be public. *And* I'm speculating that Johnn might actually have been annoyed with FW's fanboy and wanted to try to clear some of the stars out of his eyes. :P

Stratemann's strategy, in contrast, got three children of his duke married to three children of FW, including the two most politically important ones, so...I guess that paid off. :P

Btw, I was googling Løvenørn just to get the characters that aren't on my keyboard, because I'm oddly lazy about random technical things :P, and I saw that he died in February 1740. That makes even more sense of why Fritz in 1739 is asking Fouqué, who's about to join Danish service, if he has any news on Løvenørn. I wonder if Fritz heard he was sick. In any case, as I've pointed out, Fritz didn't see Løvenørn after 1730 that I know of, and to still be asking after him in 1739 speaks of some fondness.

We know you tried, Løvenørn.

(If I don't get a lot of German done today, detective work is why. ;) )

Son of ETA: Let's not forget that Johnn and the pamphlet he leaked have the only variant of Katte's last words (so far) to mention FW, i.e., "If I had ten lives, I would give them all to reconcile Your Royal Highness with your lord father the King." Johnn: not a fan!

English translation, because I need you to understand this if google doesn't deliver:

I applaud your priorities, and also the sense of urgency you managed to convey in the word "need." :D I extremely needed to understand that, so thank you very much for the translation.
Edited 2020-10-01 03:11 (UTC)
selenak: (Sternennacht - Lefaym)

Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : Rumors, Rumors

[personal profile] selenak 2020-10-01 05:31 pm (UTC)(link)
More quotes for you:

- There were lots of rumors in 1729 that Fritz would be allowed to travel to France and Italy, but nothing came out of it.

- there's a lot about the squashed desertion/rebellion among the Long Fellows in early 1730 and the various gruesome executions; Stratemann being the Pollyanna of envoys, he says later when reporting on SD's bad state during the last months of her pregnancy (remember, that family scene where Wilhelmine gets forgiven by FW etc) that clearly, the Queen is distressed because she was so worried about her husband and son being in danger from those evil conspirators

- actual comment from Fritz on this incident:
It is said that the Crown Prince confessed to his confidant, literally: If it was up to me, I'd open all the gates at Potsdam and would announce: now all the scoundrels can go wherever they please and run, honest men could stay, and would be rewarded according to their merits and behavior in the future.


(This reminds me of a famous King Fritz speech just before Leuthen.)

- Stratemann in general reports incidents with members of the army and the staff; in 1728, an unlucky page forgot FW's overcoat and it rained. That guy got beaten. In 1730, one Potsdam Giant committed suicide in the room where the tobacco parliament was held (obviously not while it was in session) by hanging himself, because he had been publically humiliated by his superior officer, and FW was incensed and ordered his body being dragged through the streets and thrown on the dungheap; the guy was born in Tyrol and a Catholic, says our envoy, which makes me conclude he must have been kidnapped.

- in l729, rumor has it the recalled Suhm has ended up at the Fortress Königstein (I've been there, remember the photos), and Stratemann observes philosophically that if true, this would not be surprising, since Suhm was "a creature of Minister Flemming" and when there's a change of minister people often fall; now, Flemming was August's most important minister and majorly responsible of Countess' Cosel's downfall back in the day as he hated her and intrigued against her; the incoming new prime minister was the famous Count Brühl, whose houses Fritz will licence for plunder and whose wife he'll clash with in the 7 Years War

- Dr. Willers, according to Stratemann the guy who taught both Wilhelmine and Fritz in English in preparation for their marriages, is sent away (with honors) from Potsdam in February 1730

- considerate husband FW, when his wife is sick, tells her, sounding a lot like his son later: She should get rid of Dr. Stahlen, he (FW) wanted to be her Medicus; she should not drink so much coffee and drink nothing but hot soup instead, then her illness would pass. The Queen promised to do this and asked for the hot soup; and the following day, her condition improved.

- as reported by Wilhelmine in her memoirs, there's a message from Fritz of Wales swearing his (sight unseen) love for her and that she's the only one for him; both she and Fritz are supposed to stay in England for a year after their marriages and then Fritz gets to travel (again, according to what S has heard about the conditions for the ENglish marriages in 1730)

- Charles Hotham Sr. has a very FW experience: When the King had lunched eight days ago with the English envoy du Bourgue, there was a lot of hard drinking; and since his Majesty emptied a cup toasting the King of England's health directed at the Chevalier Hotham, the envoy demanded an equally large cup and asked for permission to toast his Majesty's health as well; which he put to the test, but holdling and emptying this put even his coworkers on week feet, but he still managed to keep his countenance; though at last his legs could not carry him anymore, and he had to be carried to his coach.

- from our loyal correspondance from Brunswick, more idyllic Hohenzollern family scenes, as the birth of Ferdinand is used by people to petition the King while offering their congratulations: Many petitions are being given to the Queen on this occasion, one of which I want to mention; for the youngest princess, Amalie, had been given by her nurse a memorandum in which she recommended and asked for her husband, who'd been a wine trader and whose trade had been ruined, to be hired by the royal cellar; ; but since the Princess Amalie couldn't quite read out the petition, the Princess Ulrike took it into her hands and adressed the King thusly: My dear Papa! I, too, come in order to ask for a huge favor. Amalie's nurse doesn't have any bread and asks for her husband to be given a lowly emmployment. Princess Amalie, also present, throws herself on the ground before the King and sadly says: "Oh yes! Dear Papa! Bread, bread for my nurse! which the King replies thusly: Don't bother me like this, you shall be granted all and your nurse shall have bread.

- post catastrophe: Löwenör (Strateman's spelling of the name) is in disgrace: The Danish envoy v. Löwenöhr, whom the King used to like always, has not been allowed to come before the King's grace anymore since he supposedly knew of a design il favoured by the King, and didn't report it. Now he lives basically incognito and it is believed he'll soon return again to his sick sovereign.

- Stratemann reports the story of the soldier who lights the candle again for Fritz after extinguishing it according to FW's order in that month of November when he suddenly has all the goods

- in the same entry as he reports the return of Major von Schach from Küstrin, S has heard a rumor about Peter Keith: It is also said: that Lieutenant v. Keit, who'd made himself invisible in Wesel in the month of August and withdrew to Holland and furtherly to England, has become a naturalized citzen there and has been equipped by his Great-British Majesty with a company. I guess this man congratulates himself heartily that he has escaped from a great anger in this country and now finds himself in such happy circumstances.





mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : Rumors, Rumors

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-10-02 10:48 pm (UTC)(link)
- There were lots of rumors in 1729 that Fritz would be allowed to travel to France and Italy, but nothing came out of it.

Per Lavisse, these discussions apparently went far enough that in February 1730, the French government officially said, "We'd love to have you visit," which has been taken to mean that they were offering him asylum during his escape attempt, but what they really meant was, "If FW gives you permission."

(This reminds me of a famous King Fritz speech just before Leuthen.)

It does! But even with the Fritz method you only get a one-time deal; desertion at other times is Not On.

in 1728, an unlucky page forgot FW's overcoat and it rained. That guy got beaten.

Oops. I hope it wasn't my favorite FW page!

In 1730, one Potsdam Giant committed suicide in the room where the tobacco parliament was held (obviously not while it was in session) by hanging himself, because he had been publically humiliated by his superior officer

ZOMG. Also, agree he was kidnapped.

in l729, rumor has it the recalled Suhm

Interesting! I just looked up the date of this envoy, and it's October 15, 1729. My other sources have him continuing to be official envoy until January 1730, with a co-envoy from mid-September 1729 on.

Dr. Willers, according to Stratemann the guy who taught both Wilhelmine and Fritz in English

Ooh, English lessons for Fritz. I've always wondered how much English he actually knew. He had no problem spouting off about what an inferior language it was, but Fritz's specialty was always uninformed opinions. And even beyond FW's refusal to let him become properly educated (in contrast to Wilhelmine), Fritz doesn't seem to have been linguistically gifted.

since the Princess Amalie couldn't quite read out the petition, the Princess Ulrike took it into her hands and adressed the King thusly:

Awww! Go Ulrike. Those two do get the cute stories together. [personal profile] cahn, Amalie would have been 6, and Ulrike about to turn 10.

Löwenör (Strateman's spelling of the name)

He's so hard to Google because there are like 6 spellings of his name!

- Stratemann reports the story of the soldier who lights the candle again for Fritz after extinguishing it according to FW's order in that month of November when he suddenly has all the goods

Ooh! That is the earliest and only contemporary account of that we have. So it was definitely predates the Fouqué visit in the following year, and since our only evidence for Fouqué letting Fritz use his candles past lights-out is Fouqué's grandson, I wonder if this story got passed down orally and changed a little to give him credit. Of course, the officer extinguishing Fritz's candle may well have just decided to leave Fouqué's candle lit on that occasion and not relight Fritz's, but it wouldn't have been necessary. Even in the cell, Fritz later reports to Wilhelmine that he was reading with a lamp, and that was before Katte's death (at least so we've deduced).

Though I have to wonder...if Stratemann knows about this candle-lighting at this early date, does FW know about this? Does he (try to) put a stop to it?

has become a naturalized citzen there and has been equipped by his Great-British Majesty with a company.

I don't know about the company, but the rest checks out.

I guess this man congratulates himself heartily that he has escaped from a great anger in this country and now finds himself in such happy circumstances.

I guess so! Though he's still nervous enough to withdraw to Dublin.
selenak: (Wilhelmine und Folichon)

Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions

[personal profile] selenak 2020-10-01 05:47 pm (UTC)(link)
I knew you'd like the AW story. :) But yes, I'm afraid this might not have ended too well for little AW, favourite or not. All the more impressive he didn't give up his source regardless.

Speaking of sources: according to the preface, Stratemann hung out with Seckendorf a lot, which makes sense because at this point Braunschweig and Habsburg interests were still aligned (and remember, MT's mother the Empress was a born EC von Braunschweig-Bevern). So he could have the intel from Johnn, but he could also have it from Seckendorf. Though why Seckendorf should suddenly provide him with the real goods in this particular month, and not before, I don't know, so it might be the Danes after all. (If he risked hanging out with in disgrace Løvenørn.)

One more thing about the preface: editor Richard Wolff here and in the footnotes complains about the "harsh and unloving" way Wilhelmine writes about her parents, and how the picture she paints of them is surely proven wrong by all these heartwarming stories about indulgent father FW....

...which reminds me: it really shows in all these sources (not just the ones about the Hohenzollern but also the British ones) how much parents dealing out verbal abuse to their children was treated very differently to children talking badly about their parents (or just talking back) - and not just in the 18th century but still in the 20th. Anyway, it doesn't seem to occur to Editor Wolff that one reason why Stratemann focuses to much on reporting cute anecdotes about the smaller kids is that anything he could say about the older ones (other than in euphemisms, like Wilhelmine being sick throughout the second half of 1730) would not sound good. He already had managed to secure the marriage with Charlotte (whose engagement he reports on) for his Duke, and was presumably gunning for Fritz, and if his mail got opened by Prussians, he really did not want to be found spouting criticism of FW, would be my guess.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-10-02 10:11 pm (UTC)(link)
But yes, I'm afraid this might not have ended too well for little AW, favourite or not. All the more impressive he didn't give up his source regardless.

That's what I was thinking. Though if he's worried that his source might get their head cut off, maybe that contributed. :/

UGH FW.

Me when FW does something: Ugh, FW.

Me when Fritz does something: Oh, Fritz.

:P

So he could have the intel from Johnn, but he could also have it from Seckendorf. Though why Seckendorf should suddenly provide him with the real goods in this particular month, and not before, I don't know, so it might be the Danes after all.

Good point, it could have been Seckendorff. We have no data on what he knew, because his November 11 report just says that on November 6, Katte's head was cut off below Fritz's window, and Fritz had to watch, and that there's hope that Fritz is about to be freed, because FW is looking for some people (lit. "Cavaliers") to go to him.

Whereas the Johnn report has all the details that make it clear it was from an eyewitness, as does Stratemann.

An important difference between the two is that Johnn (like the pamphlet) has the "if I had ten lives to give," whereas S's is more generic. But that could also reflect bias: Johnn's makes Katte look good and FW look bad, and S's has Katte explicitly blame himself and not just exonerate Fritz (the only report so far to do so). Also, this:

1731 pamphlet presumably based on Johnn: "Mein gnädigster Cron-prinz sie haben nicht Ursach mich um Verzeihung zu bitten"
Stratemann: "Ihro Hoheit haben nicht Ursache um Vergebung zu bitten"

But since we don't have Seckendorff's account of the details of the execution, it's really hard to say whether Stratemann's is closer to one or the other.

(If he risked hanging out with in disgrace Løvenørn.)

But if Wikipedia is to be trusted, he wouldn't have had to! Løvenørn was back in Denmark by November. It would have been Johnn passing on the goods.

how much parents dealing out verbal abuse to their children was treated very differently to children talking badly about their parents (or just talking back) - and not just in the 18th century but still in the 20th

Yeah, in Wilhelmine's memoirs, she says there was no excuse for mocking her father behind his back, because no matter what your parents do, children should never forget the respect they owe them. Needless to say, I disagree with the notion that only punching down is morally acceptable, which is very convenient for the people who get to make the rules. ;)

doesn't seem to occur to Editor Wolff that one reason why Stratemann focuses to much on reporting cute anecdotes about the smaller kids is that anything he could say about the older ones (other than in euphemisms, like Wilhelmine being sick throughout the second half of 1730) would not sound good.

Sigh. Of course not.

He already had managed to secure the marriage with Charlotte (whose engagement he reports on) for his Duke, and was presumably gunning for Fritz, and if his mail got opened by Prussians, he really did not want to be found spouting criticism of FW, would be my guess.

Totally agree.
Edited 2020-10-02 22:54 (UTC)