another case of English nobles mistaking the Hannover royals treating their illegitimate kin as family members meaning said kin are mistresses
Ah, yes, that does make sense. I think we've solved this mystery! (Pending further evidence, as always.)
Hervey mentions being bored to tears and tuning out whenever G2, who loved talking genealogy - it was a hobby of his - started on who was related to whom.
Lololol, yep, I bet that'd do it.
And so it's still true that Peter Keith was saved in Amsterdam by the husband of Katte's sort of cousin and possible deflowerer.
Future husband, but yes. I'd thought it was only unreliable Wilhelmine and unreliable son of Keith who mentioned Chesterfield by name, but I checked Kloosterhuis yesterday, and it's also in the Mylius write-up that Keith was admitted to Chesterfield's house for asylum, and Mylius cites his sources, so I'm taking it as true. Though from the report, it kind of looks like Chesterfield wasn't directly involved?
Ob nun gleich der nachgeschickte Königlich Preußische Obrist du Moulin und der preußische Envoyé alle Mühe angewendet, seiner habhafft zu werden, auch von denen committirten Räthen von Holland eine Ordre an den Cammer-Bewaerder erhalten gehabt, denselben arretiren zu lassen, so ist es doch umsonst gewesen, indem nach des Cammer-Bewaerders Rapport vom 15. August 1730 und anderen habenden Nachrichten schon Tages zuvor gegen Abend der von Kait mit dem Cammer[-Diener] des Generallieutenants Baron von Keppel, so ehmahls alß Envoyé in Berlin gewesen, aus dem Quartier ,Zu 3 Schwalben‘ genant weggegangen, nachdem kurtz vorher seine Hardes nach des Haußknechts Rapport in des Großbritannischen Ambassadeurs Mylords Graffen von Chesterfields Hauß getragen und an obbesagten Cammerdiener abgegeben worden.
Im Haag hat dieser von Kait sich sehr bemühet, einen Comte d’Halberville auszufragen, hat sich auch unter dem Nahmen eines Graffen von Sparr an- fangs bey den obbesagten Generallieutenant Baron von Keppel anmelden laßen, jedoch derselbe ihn nicht gekant. Weil aber deßelben Cammerdiener nicht wißen wollen, wohin der von Kait gekommen sey, und in Abwesenheit des Graffen von Chesterfields der Secretarius sich gegen den Preußischen Envoyé und erwehnten Obristen entschuldiget, daß ihn nicht zustehe, einige Recherches zu thun und über die Domestiquen sich dergleichen Autoritaet anzumaßen, so ist im Haag seine Persohn weiter aufzusuchen umsonst gewesen. Es hat auch der desertirte von Kait sich nicht mehr lange aufgehalten, sondern sich weggemacht, und ist den 18ten August früh in Gesellschaft des Haus- [und] Hof-Meisters von besagtem Graffen und nebst noch 2 Persohnen zu Schevelingen mit einer Kutsche angekommen, und nachdem er von denenselben an ein dazu gemiethetes Pinco oder Fischer-Schiff begleitet worden, ist er ohnerachtet der Wind sehr contrair gewesen, daß auch andere Schiffe in die Maas zurückgetrieben worden, dennoch in aller Eyl ab- und nach Engelland übergegangen.
My take on this:
Mylius: "FW, please believe us, your guys tried REALLY HARD to capture that Peter, but to no avail. Here's why.
"According to the report I have in hand, written on 15. August 1730, Peter had shown up at Chesterfield's house the day before, toward evening, together with the chamberlain of Baron von Keppel [Mildred: this guy, I think] who formerly had been envoy in Berlin [Mildred: I'm assuming that's where Peter knew him from].
"Now, Peter had been asking all around the Hague after Fritz's pseudonym, and initially introduced himself under his own, but von Keppel [Mildred: apparently a British courtier with ties to the Netherlands] didn't know him under that name [Mildred: and presumably wouldn't admit him until he gave his real name].
"Then the Prussians showed up the next day, and Keppel's chamberlain was like, 'Sorry, Chesterfield isn't here atm, Peter who? I can't help you, no authority to investigate this on my own or tell Chesterfield's staff what to do, plz go away.' So our Prussian guys had to give up as they got totally stonewalled by the British.
"Then three days later, Peter was taken to the coast by Chesterfield's staff, and set sail in all haste to England, even though it was so stormy that other ships were being driven back to the Meuse.
"Sorry, Your Majesty! Points for effort?"
nachdem kurtz vorher seine Hardes nach des Haußknechts Rapport
Google and I are stumped on "Hardes." All I can find is "old clothes, rags" in Norman. Help?
the essay you so kindly allowed me to read contains some great info on the years 1730 - 1732, among them that in 1730, there was a big scandal and trial against hundreds of gay men which made international waves.
Ooh, I can't wait for the write-up on this one! I've been thinking that we should dig a little more into the history of homosexuality during our period, only I have to learn German before I can start reading new things. So yay for you reading new things and telling us about them! The free, made-to-order education never fails to astound me. All hail Royal Reader!
Re: Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!
Seine Hardes - Rokoko German strikes again. I have to guess from context and can't think of an appropriate newer German or French word - Rokoko German having a lot of those - but how about: "...after just a short while earlier, his luggage had been transported to the above named house of the Ambassador of Great Britain, Mylord Earl of Chesterfield, and had been delivered to the earlier named valet; this according to the report of the house servant."
(A Hausknecht is far lower ranking than a Kammerdiener, if you're wondering, but you don't have a different word for "Knecht" and "Diener" in English, do you?)
It's a highly useful essay, and the authors are good enough to make it clear what data they have, and where their speculation starts. They're also really good at establishing context.
Re: Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!
Yeah, I could tell that none of my Google hits for this word postdated 1900, so I figured it was an old-fashioned one. Thanks for taking your best stab at it!
(A Hausknecht is far lower ranking than a Kammerdiener, if you're wondering, but you don't have a different word for "Knecht" and "Diener" in English, do you?)
I had figured as much, but as for English translations...I'm sure thanks to 19th century English country houses, we could convey the hierarchical difference, but I'm not sure exactly how. Valet/chamberlain is pretty high-ranking in English, and as for Hausknecht...google tells me that "house boy" has a different meaning today, although "house boy" and "hall boy" were both used for low-ranking English servants, as was "page". "Footman" is more easily recognized today, though I don't know if it would be the appropriate equivalent of Hausknecht.
It's a highly useful essay, and the authors are good enough to make it clear what data they have, and where their speculation starts. They're also really good at establishing context.
Wonderful! Largely because of the paywall, we haven't been reading many recent essays, as opposed to books, in our salon, but I do have JSTOR access myself if you ever want anything from there, and Royal Patron has broader access, though with more of a delay.
ETA: Just from reading the footnote to the first page, I see: This paper springs from a joint project on John, Lord Hervey, which the authors intend will lead in due course to a new edition of his 'Memoirs' and correspondence.
Nice! Because we need one.
Hmm. Though this article was published in 2009, the new edition doesn't seem to be out yet, though Smith's web page says, "I continue to pursue an interest in eighteenth-century court culture through work on a new edition of Lord Hervey’s Memoirs of the Reign of King George II, co-edited with Stephen Taylor." No idea how recently her page was updated, though.
ETA2: Peter Keith was saved in Amsterdam
Just a nitpick: The Hague. That was Fritz's destination, that's where Chesterfield and the other envoys lived, and that's where the government is based even today, even though Amsterdam is the capital. Wikipedia tells me:
In 1806, when the Kingdom of Holland was a puppet state of the First French Empire, the settlement was granted city rights by Louis Bonaparte. After the Napoleonic Wars, modern-day Belgium and the Netherlands were combined in the United Kingdom of the Netherlands to form a buffer against France. As a compromise, Brussels and Amsterdam alternated as capital every two years, with the government remaining in The Hague. After the separation of Belgium in 1830, Amsterdam remained the capital of the Netherlands, while the government was situated in The Hague.
TFW your capital changes every two years, I guess.
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Re: Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!
Ah, yes, that does make sense. I think we've solved this mystery! (Pending further evidence, as always.)
Hervey mentions being bored to tears and tuning out whenever G2, who loved talking genealogy - it was a hobby of his - started on who was related to whom.
Lololol, yep, I bet that'd do it.
And so it's still true that Peter Keith was saved in Amsterdam by the husband of Katte's sort of cousin and possible deflowerer.
Future husband, but yes. I'd thought it was only unreliable Wilhelmine and unreliable son of Keith who mentioned Chesterfield by name, but I checked Kloosterhuis yesterday, and it's also in the Mylius write-up that Keith was admitted to Chesterfield's house for asylum, and Mylius cites his sources, so I'm taking it as true. Though from the report, it kind of looks like Chesterfield wasn't directly involved?
Ob nun gleich der nachgeschickte Königlich Preußische Obrist du Moulin und der preußische Envoyé alle Mühe angewendet, seiner habhafft zu werden, auch von denen committirten Räthen von Holland eine Ordre an den Cammer-Bewaerder erhalten gehabt, denselben arretiren zu lassen, so ist es doch umsonst gewesen, indem nach des Cammer-Bewaerders Rapport vom 15. August 1730 und anderen habenden Nachrichten schon Tages zuvor gegen Abend der von Kait mit dem Cammer[-Diener] des Generallieutenants Baron von Keppel, so ehmahls alß Envoyé in Berlin gewesen, aus dem Quartier ,Zu 3 Schwalben‘ genant weggegangen, nachdem kurtz vorher seine Hardes nach des Haußknechts Rapport in des Großbritannischen Ambassadeurs Mylords Graffen von Chesterfields Hauß getragen und an obbesagten Cammerdiener abgegeben worden.
Im Haag hat dieser von Kait sich sehr bemühet, einen Comte d’Halberville auszufragen, hat sich auch unter dem Nahmen eines Graffen von Sparr an-
fangs bey den obbesagten Generallieutenant Baron von Keppel anmelden laßen, jedoch derselbe ihn nicht gekant. Weil aber deßelben Cammerdiener nicht wißen wollen, wohin der von Kait gekommen sey, und in Abwesenheit des Graffen von Chesterfields der Secretarius sich gegen den Preußischen Envoyé und erwehnten Obristen entschuldiget, daß ihn nicht zustehe, einige Recherches zu thun und über die Domestiquen sich dergleichen Autoritaet anzumaßen, so ist im Haag seine Persohn weiter aufzusuchen umsonst gewesen. Es hat auch der desertirte von Kait sich nicht mehr lange aufgehalten, sondern sich weggemacht, und ist den 18ten August früh in Gesellschaft des Haus- [und] Hof-Meisters von besagtem Graffen und nebst noch 2 Persohnen zu Schevelingen mit einer Kutsche angekommen, und nachdem er von denenselben an ein dazu gemiethetes Pinco oder Fischer-Schiff begleitet worden, ist er ohnerachtet der Wind sehr contrair gewesen, daß auch andere Schiffe in die Maas zurückgetrieben worden, dennoch in aller Eyl ab- und nach Engelland übergegangen.
My take on this:
Mylius: "FW, please believe us, your guys tried REALLY HARD to capture that Peter, but to no avail. Here's why.
"According to the report I have in hand, written on 15. August 1730, Peter had shown up at Chesterfield's house the day before, toward evening, together with the chamberlain of Baron von Keppel [Mildred: this guy, I think] who formerly had been envoy in Berlin [Mildred: I'm assuming that's where Peter knew him from].
"Now, Peter had been asking all around the Hague after Fritz's pseudonym, and initially introduced himself under his own, but von Keppel [Mildred: apparently a British courtier with ties to the Netherlands] didn't know him under that name [Mildred: and presumably wouldn't admit him until he gave his real name].
"Then the Prussians showed up the next day, and Keppel's chamberlain was like, 'Sorry, Chesterfield isn't here atm, Peter who? I can't help you, no authority to investigate this on my own or tell Chesterfield's staff what to do, plz go away.' So our Prussian guys had to give up as they got totally stonewalled by the British.
"Then three days later, Peter was taken to the coast by Chesterfield's staff, and set sail in all haste to England, even though it was so stormy that other ships were being driven back to the Meuse.
"Sorry, Your Majesty! Points for effort?"
nachdem kurtz vorher seine Hardes nach des Haußknechts Rapport
Google and I are stumped on "Hardes." All I can find is "old clothes, rags" in Norman. Help?
the essay you so kindly allowed me to read contains some great info on the years 1730 - 1732, among them that in 1730, there was a big scandal and trial against hundreds of gay men which made international waves.
Ooh, I can't wait for the write-up on this one! I've been thinking that we should dig a little more into the history of homosexuality during our period, only I have to learn German before I can start reading new things. So yay for you reading new things and telling us about them! The free, made-to-order education never fails to astound me. All hail Royal Reader!
Re: Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!
(A Hausknecht is far lower ranking than a Kammerdiener, if you're wondering, but you don't have a different word for "Knecht" and "Diener" in English, do you?)
It's a highly useful essay, and the authors are good enough to make it clear what data they have, and where their speculation starts. They're also really good at establishing context.
Re: Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!
Yeah, I could tell that none of my Google hits for this word postdated 1900, so I figured it was an old-fashioned one. Thanks for taking your best stab at it!
(A Hausknecht is far lower ranking than a Kammerdiener, if you're wondering, but you don't have a different word for "Knecht" and "Diener" in English, do you?)
I had figured as much, but as for English translations...I'm sure thanks to 19th century English country houses, we could convey the hierarchical difference, but I'm not sure exactly how. Valet/chamberlain is pretty high-ranking in English, and as for Hausknecht...google tells me that "house boy" has a different meaning today, although "house boy" and "hall boy" were both used for low-ranking English servants, as was "page". "Footman" is more easily recognized today, though I don't know if it would be the appropriate equivalent of Hausknecht.
It's a highly useful essay, and the authors are good enough to make it clear what data they have, and where their speculation starts. They're also really good at establishing context.
Wonderful! Largely because of the paywall, we haven't been reading many recent essays, as opposed to books, in our salon, but I do have JSTOR access myself if you ever want anything from there, and Royal Patron has broader access, though with more of a delay.
ETA: Just from reading the footnote to the first page, I see: This paper springs from a joint project on John, Lord Hervey, which the authors intend will lead in due course to a new edition of his 'Memoirs' and correspondence.
Nice! Because we need one.
Hmm. Though this article was published in 2009, the new edition doesn't seem to be out yet, though Smith's web page says, "I continue to pursue an interest in eighteenth-century court culture through work on a new edition of Lord Hervey’s Memoirs of the Reign of King George II, co-edited with Stephen Taylor." No idea how recently her page was updated, though.
ETA2: Peter Keith was saved in Amsterdam
Just a nitpick: The Hague. That was Fritz's destination, that's where Chesterfield and the other envoys lived, and that's where the government is based even today, even though Amsterdam is the capital. Wikipedia tells me:
In 1806, when the Kingdom of Holland was a puppet state of the First French Empire, the settlement was granted city rights by Louis Bonaparte. After the Napoleonic Wars, modern-day Belgium and the Netherlands were combined in the United Kingdom of the Netherlands to form a buffer against France. As a compromise, Brussels and Amsterdam alternated as capital every two years, with the government remaining in The Hague. After the separation of Belgium in 1830, Amsterdam remained the capital of the Netherlands, while the government was situated in The Hague.
TFW your capital changes every two years, I guess.