cahn: (Default)
cahn ([personal profile] cahn) wrote2020-09-14 09:24 pm
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Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 18

...apparently reading group is the way to get lots of comments quickly?
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-09-19 10:00 pm (UTC)(link)
If Chesterfield was married to a Schulenburg sister, that means he's distantly related to the Kattes, thus also justifying imaginary descendant's name of Philip Stanhope in "Zeithain"

If my research is correct, it's even crazier than that. I've done my best to organize the convoluted genealogical relationships below.

Act 1

Dramatis Personae

1) Melusine von der Schulenburg, Duchess of Kendal: Related by marriage (but not blood, as far as we can tell), to the Kattes. Called Aunt Melusine by Hans Hermann. Mistress of George I. She and G1 had 3 daughters, (2) - (4) below.

2) Anna Luise von der Schulenburg, Countess of Dölitz: Or "d'Elitz," as Hervey spells it. Oldest daughter of G1 and Melusine. Mistress of G1, G2, and FoW, according to Hervey.

3) Petronella von der Schulenburg: 2nd daughter of G1 and Melusine. Possibly had an affair with visiting Hans Hermann in the 1720s, per a letter from Hans Heinrich to his brother. Married Philip Stanhope, 4th Earl of Chesterfield, aka the famous Chesterfield, in 1733.

4) Margarethe Gertrud von Oeynhausen: 3rd daughter of G1 and Melusine. I have no stories about her (yet).

5) Philip Stanhope, 4th Earl of Chesterfield: The famous one. Married to Melusine's daughter Petronella. British envoy to the Netherlands in 1730. Helped Peter Keith escape to England.

6) Philip Stanhope: Modern-day protagonist of Zeithain. Fictional descendant of Petronella and Chesterfield, who in reality had no children together.

See also the family tree, which is missing Melusine's other daughters, because at the time I made it, I didn't know that one was of such interest to gossipy sensationalists. ;)

Scene 1
Philip Stanhope is so named because Melusine's daughter Petronella married Lord Chesterfield.

Scene 2
When Hervey writes, "Madame d'Elitz was a Schulemberg, sister to my Lady Chesterfield," it's because Madame d'Elitz is Melusine's oldest daughter, and Melusine's second daughter, Petronella, is Lady Chesterfield (as of 1733).

Scene 3
If Anna Luise has been sleeping with G1, G2, and FoW, or any combination thereof, those are her father, half-brother, and half-nephew. That's one generation more (that I know of) than Countess Orzelska, supposed lover of her father and half-brother!

Act 2

Dramatis Personae

7) Gertrud von der Schulenberg: Sister of Melusine. Wife of Friedrich Achaz von der Schulenburg, who is clearly related to her, although how closely, I can't say. Adoptive mother of (2) - (3), Anna Luise and Petronella.

8) Friedrich Achaz von der Schulenburg: Married to Melusine's sister. Related to his wife somehow. Adoptive father of Melusine's two oldest children by G1.

Scene 1
You might have been lured into thinking that Anna Luise and Petronella are von der Schulenbergs because their mother Melusine was a von der Schulenberg and they were illegitimate, but no, that would be too easy.

The reason Anna Luise (2) and Petronella (3) are von der Schulenbergs, while their younger sister (4) is not, is that the first two were adopted by their mother's sister, Aunt Gertrud, and it so happens that Aunt Gertrud had married a relative by the same last name. Whereas (4) was adopted by a *different* sister of Melusine, who had married a different man, and thus had a different last name.

Scene 2
So when Hervey writes, "Madame d'Elitz set out for England, where she now was with her aunt and sister, the Duchess of Kendal and Lady Chesterfield," it's because her aunt, the Duchess of Kendal, is actually her mother (you know, like all the popes and their "nephews"), and her adoptive mother is her real mother's sister.

So I'm speculating that Hervey thinks Madame d'Elitz is actually the daughter of Melusine's sister and *not* the daughter of G1 and Melusine, otherwise we'd be hearing a lot more about supposed incest? Or could that be the product of grandson + editor bowdlerization?

I can't give you a genealogical visual here, but I might make one up at some point, back pain permitting. Because wow. ;)
Edited 2020-09-20 02:33 (UTC)
selenak: (Default)

Re: Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!

[personal profile] selenak 2020-09-20 03:47 pm (UTC)(link)
So I'm speculating that Hervey thinks Madame d'Elitz is actually the daughter of Melusine's sister and *not* the daughter of G1 and Melusine, otherwise we'd be hearing a lot more about supposed incest? Or could that be the product of grandson + editor bowdlerization?

While the later isn't impossible, my money is on the former, and futhermore, that it's another case of English nobles mistaking the Hannover royals treating their illegitimate kin as family members meaning said kin are mistresses. Given the precedent of Sophia von Kielmannsegg/Lady Darlington, that makes sense. Besides, Hervey mentions being bored to tears and tuning out whenever G2, who loved talking genealogy - it was a hobby of his - started on who was related to whom. Thus, Hervey might have missed the mention that this lady was in fact G2's half sister, if, that is, G2 bothered to mention it.

Also, thank you so much on another superb job, Royal Librarian and Genealogist! And so it's still true that Peter Keith was saved in Amsterdam by the husband of Katte's sort of cousin and possible deflowerer. Saved in more sense than one, because the essay you so kindly allowed me to read contains some great info on the years 1730 - 1732, among them that in 1730, there was a big scandal and trial against hundreds of gay men which made international waves.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-09-20 05:02 pm (UTC)(link)
another case of English nobles mistaking the Hannover royals treating their illegitimate kin as family members meaning said kin are mistresses

Ah, yes, that does make sense. I think we've solved this mystery! (Pending further evidence, as always.)

Hervey mentions being bored to tears and tuning out whenever G2, who loved talking genealogy - it was a hobby of his - started on who was related to whom.

Lololol, yep, I bet that'd do it.

And so it's still true that Peter Keith was saved in Amsterdam by the husband of Katte's sort of cousin and possible deflowerer.

Future husband, but yes. I'd thought it was only unreliable Wilhelmine and unreliable son of Keith who mentioned Chesterfield by name, but I checked Kloosterhuis yesterday, and it's also in the Mylius write-up that Keith was admitted to Chesterfield's house for asylum, and Mylius cites his sources, so I'm taking it as true. Though from the report, it kind of looks like Chesterfield wasn't directly involved?

Ob nun gleich der nachgeschickte Königlich Preußische Obrist du Moulin und der preußische Envoyé alle Mühe angewendet, seiner habhafft zu werden, auch von denen committirten Räthen von Holland eine Ordre an den Cammer-Bewaerder erhalten gehabt, denselben arretiren zu lassen, so ist es doch umsonst gewesen, indem nach des Cammer-Bewaerders Rapport vom 15. August 1730 und anderen habenden Nachrichten schon Tages zuvor gegen Abend der von Kait mit dem Cammer[-Diener] des Generallieutenants Baron von Keppel, so ehmahls alß Envoyé in Berlin gewesen, aus dem Quartier ,Zu 3 Schwalben‘ genant weggegangen, nachdem kurtz vorher seine Hardes nach des Haußknechts Rapport in des Großbritannischen Ambassadeurs Mylords Graffen von Chesterfields Hauß getragen und an obbesagten Cammerdiener abgegeben worden.

Im Haag hat dieser von Kait sich sehr bemühet, einen Comte d’Halberville auszufragen, hat sich auch unter dem Nahmen eines Graffen von Sparr an-
fangs bey den obbesagten Generallieutenant Baron von Keppel anmelden laßen, jedoch derselbe ihn nicht gekant. Weil aber deßelben Cammerdiener nicht wißen wollen, wohin der von Kait gekommen sey, und in Abwesenheit des Graffen von Chesterfields der Secretarius sich gegen den Preußischen Envoyé und erwehnten Obristen entschuldiget, daß ihn nicht zustehe, einige Recherches zu thun und über die Domestiquen sich dergleichen Autoritaet anzumaßen, so ist im Haag seine Persohn weiter aufzusuchen umsonst gewesen. Es hat auch der desertirte von Kait sich nicht mehr lange aufgehalten, sondern sich weggemacht, und ist den 18ten August früh in Gesellschaft des Haus- [und] Hof-Meisters von besagtem Graffen und nebst noch 2 Persohnen zu Schevelingen mit einer Kutsche angekommen, und nachdem er von denenselben an ein dazu gemiethetes Pinco oder Fischer-Schiff begleitet worden, ist er ohnerachtet der Wind sehr contrair gewesen, daß auch andere Schiffe in die Maas zurückgetrieben worden, dennoch in aller Eyl ab- und nach Engelland übergegangen.


My take on this:

Mylius: "FW, please believe us, your guys tried REALLY HARD to capture that Peter, but to no avail. Here's why.

"According to the report I have in hand, written on 15. August 1730, Peter had shown up at Chesterfield's house the day before, toward evening, together with the chamberlain of Baron von Keppel [Mildred: this guy, I think] who formerly had been envoy in Berlin [Mildred: I'm assuming that's where Peter knew him from].

"Now, Peter had been asking all around the Hague after Fritz's pseudonym, and initially introduced himself under his own, but von Keppel [Mildred: apparently a British courtier with ties to the Netherlands] didn't know him under that name [Mildred: and presumably wouldn't admit him until he gave his real name].

"Then the Prussians showed up the next day, and Keppel's chamberlain was like, 'Sorry, Chesterfield isn't here atm, Peter who? I can't help you, no authority to investigate this on my own or tell Chesterfield's staff what to do, plz go away.' So our Prussian guys had to give up as they got totally stonewalled by the British.

"Then three days later, Peter was taken to the coast by Chesterfield's staff, and set sail in all haste to England, even though it was so stormy that other ships were being driven back to the Meuse.

"Sorry, Your Majesty! Points for effort?"

nachdem kurtz vorher seine Hardes nach des Haußknechts Rapport

Google and I are stumped on "Hardes." All I can find is "old clothes, rags" in Norman. Help?

the essay you so kindly allowed me to read contains some great info on the years 1730 - 1732, among them that in 1730, there was a big scandal and trial against hundreds of gay men which made international waves.

Ooh, I can't wait for the write-up on this one! I've been thinking that we should dig a little more into the history of homosexuality during our period, only I have to learn German before I can start reading new things. So yay for you reading new things and telling us about them! The free, made-to-order education never fails to astound me. All hail Royal Reader!
selenak: (Default)

Re: Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!

[personal profile] selenak 2020-09-20 07:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Seine Hardes - Rokoko German strikes again. I have to guess from context and can't think of an appropriate newer German or French word - Rokoko German having a lot of those - but how about: "...after just a short while earlier, his luggage had been transported to the above named house of the Ambassador of Great Britain, Mylord Earl of Chesterfield, and had been delivered to the earlier named valet; this according to the report of the house servant."

(A Hausknecht is far lower ranking than a Kammerdiener, if you're wondering, but you don't have a different word for "Knecht" and "Diener" in English, do you?)

It's a highly useful essay, and the authors are good enough to make it clear what data they have, and where their speculation starts. They're also really good at establishing context.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-09-20 07:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Seine Hardes - Rokoko German strikes again.

Yeah, I could tell that none of my Google hits for this word postdated 1900, so I figured it was an old-fashioned one. Thanks for taking your best stab at it!

(A Hausknecht is far lower ranking than a Kammerdiener, if you're wondering, but you don't have a different word for "Knecht" and "Diener" in English, do you?)

I had figured as much, but as for English translations...I'm sure thanks to 19th century English country houses, we could convey the hierarchical difference, but I'm not sure exactly how. Valet/chamberlain is pretty high-ranking in English, and as for Hausknecht...google tells me that "house boy" has a different meaning today, although "house boy" and "hall boy" were both used for low-ranking English servants, as was "page". "Footman" is more easily recognized today, though I don't know if it would be the appropriate equivalent of Hausknecht.

It's a highly useful essay, and the authors are good enough to make it clear what data they have, and where their speculation starts. They're also really good at establishing context.

Wonderful! Largely because of the paywall, we haven't been reading many recent essays, as opposed to books, in our salon, but I do have JSTOR access myself if you ever want anything from there, and Royal Patron has broader access, though with more of a delay.

ETA: Just from reading the footnote to the first page, I see: This paper springs from a joint project on John, Lord Hervey, which the authors intend will lead in due course to a new edition of his 'Memoirs' and correspondence.

Nice! Because we need one.

Hmm. Though this article was published in 2009, the new edition doesn't seem to be out yet, though Smith's web page says, "I continue to pursue an interest in eighteenth-century court culture through work on a new edition of Lord Hervey’s Memoirs of the Reign of King George II, co-edited with Stephen Taylor." No idea how recently her page was updated, though.

ETA2: Peter Keith was saved in Amsterdam

Just a nitpick: The Hague. That was Fritz's destination, that's where Chesterfield and the other envoys lived, and that's where the government is based even today, even though Amsterdam is the capital. Wikipedia tells me:

In 1806, when the Kingdom of Holland was a puppet state of the First French Empire, the settlement was granted city rights by Louis Bonaparte. After the Napoleonic Wars, modern-day Belgium and the Netherlands were combined in the United Kingdom of the Netherlands to form a buffer against France. As a compromise, Brussels and Amsterdam alternated as capital every two years, with the government remaining in The Hague. After the separation of Belgium in 1830, Amsterdam remained the capital of the Netherlands, while the government was situated in The Hague.

TFW your capital changes every two years, I guess.
Edited 2020-09-20 20:13 (UTC)