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Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 18
...apparently reading group is the way to get lots of comments quickly?
Wilhelmine may have expected Fritz to summon her straight to Berlin after he became king. I've always been surprised that he didn't!
First of all: when did Wilhelmine's one and only visit to Rheinsberg (which coincided with the last time Fritz was there as far as I recall, after he was King already) happen? I just have a vague "early in his rule" memory, but that's covering anything between 1740 and the end of the first Silesian War.
As to why he didn't call her to Berlin straight away: honestly, I think it's for the Prince Hal/Henry V. reason. Everbody but everybody knew how close he and Wilhelmine had been throughout their childhood and adolescence. People also expected her to play a big role in his regime. (See Seckendorff the younger noting that SD might have miscalculated by dissing her daughter so much because Fritz, Seckendorff the younger thought, was going to resent that once he was King when Wilhelmine surely would be a major star at his court.) And remember that letter he wrote to Queen Caroline about how he'd never marry anyone but Princess Emily, one of the earliest things he apologized to FW for? (Not least because he could objectively see it had been a big mistake, no future monarch should tie himself down like this.) This letter, so said Fritz to several people and so Wilhelmine admits in her memoirs, had not only been written at Mom's urgings, but also Wilhelmine's. And because FW was so very publically angry about this, this was known to all and sunder as the example of Fritz politically influenced by women (tm), specifically, his mother and sister. Incidentally, bear also in mind the greater context. It's telling he wrote that letter to Caroline, not to Uncle George. Even in Prussia, they evidently knew Caroline was the brains of that operation. And while Reinette was not yet Louis XV's maitresse en titre, otherws were. In Russia, you had a Czarina on the throne. So: you have several major European powers dominated (in the public eye) by women, even when they were nominally ruled by men.
So I think Fritz, very set on remaking himself in the eyes of the public as der Einzige König, wanted to make it absolutely clear that no, he was NOT going to be influenced or dominated by anyone, including his favourite sister. Hence no immediate summonings. (Algarotti and Duhan were different - no one had expected them to exert any influence on him. People very much expected Wilhelmine to. Ergo: no summonings to make it clear she won't be the Power behind his Throne. Later visists, once he's won glory for himself and impressed everyone, are different, of course.
The saying actually is "ich wünschte, die Tage hätten mehr als 24 Stunden". I suspect the editor slipped up and didn't catch some leftout words.
Herbal tea: commonly associated with curing cold. You get doused with it by your doctors. Very sensible, not-well-tasting and unerotic. Note Fritz is casting Voltaire as his mistress there.
First of all: when did Wilhelmine's one and only visit to Rheinsberg (which coincided with the last time Fritz was there as far as I recall, after he was King already) happen? I just have a vague "early in his rule" memory, but that's covering anything between 1740 and the end of the first Silesian War.
As to why he didn't call her to Berlin straight away: honestly, I think it's for the Prince Hal/Henry V. reason. Everbody but everybody knew how close he and Wilhelmine had been throughout their childhood and adolescence. People also expected her to play a big role in his regime. (See Seckendorff the younger noting that SD might have miscalculated by dissing her daughter so much because Fritz, Seckendorff the younger thought, was going to resent that once he was King when Wilhelmine surely would be a major star at his court.) And remember that letter he wrote to Queen Caroline about how he'd never marry anyone but Princess Emily, one of the earliest things he apologized to FW for? (Not least because he could objectively see it had been a big mistake, no future monarch should tie himself down like this.) This letter, so said Fritz to several people and so Wilhelmine admits in her memoirs, had not only been written at Mom's urgings, but also Wilhelmine's. And because FW was so very publically angry about this, this was known to all and sunder as the example of Fritz politically influenced by women (tm), specifically, his mother and sister. Incidentally, bear also in mind the greater context. It's telling he wrote that letter to Caroline, not to Uncle George. Even in Prussia, they evidently knew Caroline was the brains of that operation. And while Reinette was not yet Louis XV's maitresse en titre, otherws were. In Russia, you had a Czarina on the throne. So: you have several major European powers dominated (in the public eye) by women, even when they were nominally ruled by men.
So I think Fritz, very set on remaking himself in the eyes of the public as der Einzige König, wanted to make it absolutely clear that no, he was NOT going to be influenced or dominated by anyone, including his favourite sister. Hence no immediate summonings. (Algarotti and Duhan were different - no one had expected them to exert any influence on him. People very much expected Wilhelmine to. Ergo: no summonings to make it clear she won't be the Power behind his Throne. Later visists, once he's won glory for himself and impressed everyone, are different, of course.
The saying actually is "ich wünschte, die Tage hätten mehr als 24 Stunden". I suspect the editor slipped up and didn't catch some leftout words.
Herbal tea: commonly associated with curing cold. You get doused with it by your doctors. Very sensible, not-well-tasting and unerotic. Note Fritz is casting Voltaire as his mistress there.
You do remember correctly re: the Garrison church.
Schwager: I keep seeing this word used, not just for what I would call a brother-in-law, but also for the relationship between the FW and Wilhelmine's father-in-law, for which English has no single word. So German 1) actually has a word for that relationship, 2) it's the same as brother-in-law?
It usually means "brother-in-law", but in old fashioned German, it used to mean any male in-law, which the old Margrave was.
Wilhelmine's daughter did go by "Friederike". And I did translate Wilhelmine's letter about her husband being adorable about the baby for you back in the day. :) Fritz as godfather: alas he wasn't a good one, in the sense that he actually did something for the girl. Now part of it was that he didn't see her often, due to geography (what with her living either in Franconia with her parents or in Swabia with her husband), and she didn't visit Berlin a lot. (Enough to impress Lehndorff with her beauty, though.) But Fritz quite openly writes to Wilhelmine in the 1750s, when she's fretting about her daughter's marriage, that "the only interest I have in your daughter is because of her mother". Exchanges between Fritz and Wilhelmine about adult Friederike tend to go thusly:
W: Visiting Stuttgart right now. My son-in-law is incredibly jealous and possessive re: my daughter. I think it's creepy, and doesn't bode well for how the marriage will go if the honeymoon era is over.
F: Eh, isn't it good if a young bride has her husband's undivided attention? Your daughter should count herself lucky.
W: Visiting Stuttgart again. Now he's having favourites.
F: Men will be men. I knew he was like that when he was still growing up at my court.
W: I've heard a rumor the Duke is secretly considering converting to Catholicism like his father and will make my daughter do the same. Please advise?
F: Your daughter converting to Catholicism is a no-go. She's the Duchess in a Protestant principality where people hated the last Duke's guts for converting. Since her marriage is not going well, her being Protestant is all she has to assure herself of being in the public favor, and that can be useful to her if her husband turns more against her.
W: Thanks, that's actually good ad....
F: Also I need Würtemberg to continue as my ally, not MT's, so your daughter better ensure her husband doesn't convert.
Daß die Akademie der Wissenschaften unter Friedrich Wilhelm I. für die Bezahlung der Hofnarren zuständig war, sagt eigentlich alles.
That the court fool was responsible for the Academy of Sciences under FW really says it all.
That's the wrong translation, though. "That the Academy of the Sciences under FW was responsible for paying the court fools (plural) salaries says it all."
I mean, the general meaning in the larger context presumably is still the same, re: the standing of the academy in FW's time, but in the interest of your German, I clarified.
Schwager: I keep seeing this word used, not just for what I would call a brother-in-law, but also for the relationship between the FW and Wilhelmine's father-in-law, for which English has no single word. So German 1) actually has a word for that relationship, 2) it's the same as brother-in-law?
It usually means "brother-in-law", but in old fashioned German, it used to mean any male in-law, which the old Margrave was.
Wilhelmine's daughter did go by "Friederike". And I did translate Wilhelmine's letter about her husband being adorable about the baby for you back in the day. :) Fritz as godfather: alas he wasn't a good one, in the sense that he actually did something for the girl. Now part of it was that he didn't see her often, due to geography (what with her living either in Franconia with her parents or in Swabia with her husband), and she didn't visit Berlin a lot. (Enough to impress Lehndorff with her beauty, though.) But Fritz quite openly writes to Wilhelmine in the 1750s, when she's fretting about her daughter's marriage, that "the only interest I have in your daughter is because of her mother". Exchanges between Fritz and Wilhelmine about adult Friederike tend to go thusly:
W: Visiting Stuttgart right now. My son-in-law is incredibly jealous and possessive re: my daughter. I think it's creepy, and doesn't bode well for how the marriage will go if the honeymoon era is over.
F: Eh, isn't it good if a young bride has her husband's undivided attention? Your daughter should count herself lucky.
W: Visiting Stuttgart again. Now he's having favourites.
F: Men will be men. I knew he was like that when he was still growing up at my court.
W: I've heard a rumor the Duke is secretly considering converting to Catholicism like his father and will make my daughter do the same. Please advise?
F: Your daughter converting to Catholicism is a no-go. She's the Duchess in a Protestant principality where people hated the last Duke's guts for converting. Since her marriage is not going well, her being Protestant is all she has to assure herself of being in the public favor, and that can be useful to her if her husband turns more against her.
W: Thanks, that's actually good ad....
F: Also I need Würtemberg to continue as my ally, not MT's, so your daughter better ensure her husband doesn't convert.
Daß die Akademie der Wissenschaften unter Friedrich Wilhelm I. für die Bezahlung der Hofnarren zuständig war, sagt eigentlich alles.
That the court fool was responsible for the Academy of Sciences under FW really says it all.
That's the wrong translation, though. "That the Academy of the Sciences under FW was responsible for paying the court fools (plural) salaries says it all."
I mean, the general meaning in the larger context presumably is still the same, re: the standing of the academy in FW's time, but in the interest of your German, I clarified.
Given none of the other ambassadors reports any marital bliss between FW and SD in late 1730/early 1731, quite the contrary, I'm mentally translating that description to "FW was extra considerate to SD in the vain hope of getting laid again, but no dice".
Incidentally, I forgot to mention, in the December 2nd 1730 entry when Stratemann is still going along with the "Wilhelmine is just really sick, not locked up in her room" pretense, he has this rumor to tell: The said princess is still bound to her sickbed, and for a few days now has been inconvenienced with undescribably strong headaches, and feels pain her her arms and legs, which everyone ascribes to a great alteration, though the fact the execution of the late Lt. v. Katte has been hidden from her, despite her often asking about him. ("ob sie sich gleich öfters nach dessen Zustand erkundigt".
Now: I'm perfectly willing to believe Wilhemine had headaches along with being locked up. She suffered from migraines often in her life, and until shortly before Katte's execution, there was a real prospect her brother would be killed. If I'm right and Madame de Joucoulles, the governess for the three youngest princesses (Amalie, Ulrike, Sophie) was Stratemann's source for the stories about the royal family, she may have tried to earn her bribery money with some truths (Wilhelmine isn't doing so well), while keeping mum about the larger point (the public hasn't seen her for months because she's basically a prisoner, too). Or Stratemann is quite aware of that (after all, the British envoy in his simultanous reports is), but in his dispatches home to Braunschweig keeps with the official version because he doesn't want to risk the newly secured Charlotte engagement by pissing FW off if his mail is read. (Not to mention that he may or may not have already had his eyes on the main marital prize, Fritz, since obviously the English marriage would not happen, and FW would look for a bride elsewhere since Fritz was still his successor.)
...but that bit about Katte is what truly intrigues me, because I can't think of why either Stratemann or his source (whether or not the source is Joucoulles) should make that up. On the contrary, a story of Wilhelmine asking repeatedly how Katte is doing could be risky to her reputation (given that FW in the big homecoming scene accused her of having an affair with him), which Stratemann at no point gives the impression of wanting to do.
Incidentally, I forgot to mention, in the December 2nd 1730 entry when Stratemann is still going along with the "Wilhelmine is just really sick, not locked up in her room" pretense, he has this rumor to tell: The said princess is still bound to her sickbed, and for a few days now has been inconvenienced with undescribably strong headaches, and feels pain her her arms and legs, which everyone ascribes to a great alteration, though the fact the execution of the late Lt. v. Katte has been hidden from her, despite her often asking about him. ("ob sie sich gleich öfters nach dessen Zustand erkundigt".
Now: I'm perfectly willing to believe Wilhemine had headaches along with being locked up. She suffered from migraines often in her life, and until shortly before Katte's execution, there was a real prospect her brother would be killed. If I'm right and Madame de Joucoulles, the governess for the three youngest princesses (Amalie, Ulrike, Sophie) was Stratemann's source for the stories about the royal family, she may have tried to earn her bribery money with some truths (Wilhelmine isn't doing so well), while keeping mum about the larger point (the public hasn't seen her for months because she's basically a prisoner, too). Or Stratemann is quite aware of that (after all, the British envoy in his simultanous reports is), but in his dispatches home to Braunschweig keeps with the official version because he doesn't want to risk the newly secured Charlotte engagement by pissing FW off if his mail is read. (Not to mention that he may or may not have already had his eyes on the main marital prize, Fritz, since obviously the English marriage would not happen, and FW would look for a bride elsewhere since Fritz was still his successor.)
...but that bit about Katte is what truly intrigues me, because I can't think of why either Stratemann or his source (whether or not the source is Joucoulles) should make that up. On the contrary, a story of Wilhelmine asking repeatedly how Katte is doing could be risky to her reputation (given that FW in the big homecoming scene accused her of having an affair with him), which Stratemann at no point gives the impression of wanting to do.
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cahn asked on AO3, I thought I'd just put the link here.
I attempted to translate Friedrich Mythos und Tragödie back in 2016 to show it to an American friend of mine (because I needed other people to suffer like I did). The subtitles were... alright enough, but I revised them last month, so now they're actually in the vague vicinity of good :'D The amount of serotonin I got when, after four years, I finally understood that FW says "You will serve in the Gens d'armes regiment" and not "asdsghjdsfjhkg SERVE!" - amazing.
I am not a professional translator and sometimes I am just plain lazy (I couldn't be arsed to spend too much brain power on retranslating the Katte/Wilhelmine duet...) soooo there are probably still mistakes. Anyway, here .
Geez, my love-hate relationship with this musical. I mean, some of the songs are great. Sometimes it is obvious that they did do their research (other times it is obvious that they did not give a shit about it...). I do think the cast had potential. Even though they picked the worst day to record for poor Tobias Bieri (Crown Prince Fritz), he sounds so much better in the bootlegs I've seen...
cahn asked on AO3, I thought I'd just put the link here.I attempted to translate Friedrich Mythos und Tragödie back in 2016 to show it to an American friend of mine (because I needed other people to suffer like I did). The subtitles were... alright enough, but I revised them last month, so now they're actually in the vague vicinity of good :'D The amount of serotonin I got when, after four years, I finally understood that FW says "You will serve in the Gens d'armes regiment" and not "asdsghjdsfjhkg SERVE!" - amazing.
I am not a professional translator and sometimes I am just plain lazy (I couldn't be arsed to spend too much brain power on retranslating the Katte/Wilhelmine duet...) soooo there are probably still mistakes. Anyway, here .
Geez, my love-hate relationship with this musical. I mean, some of the songs are great. Sometimes it is obvious that they did do their research (other times it is obvious that they did not give a shit about it...). I do think the cast had potential. Even though they picked the worst day to record for poor Tobias Bieri (Crown Prince Fritz), he sounds so much better in the bootlegs I've seen...
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
mildred_of_midgard
2020-10-04 03:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, like Catherine the Great said in her memoirs, he had qualities to respect as a king but none that made him lovable as a human being...
For all that Fritz's terribleness resulted in a great deal more suffering on a large scale (a million is a statistic), he also had positives for me to latch onto. Which is why I'm all "My (problematic) FAVE!" to Fritz and "DIE DIE DIE" to FW, unfair as that may be.
For all that Fritz's terribleness resulted in a great deal more suffering on a large scale (a million is a statistic), he also had positives for me to latch onto. Which is why I'm all "My (problematic) FAVE!" to Fritz and "DIE DIE DIE" to FW, unfair as that may be.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
mildred_of_midgard
2020-10-04 03:37 pm (UTC)(link)
I did not forget that, but what I misremembered was it that fell under the list of things Grumbkow convinced FW he couldn't legally do. Now that I look it up again, the pliers were totally legal and used (including against Potsdam Giants) once the party was found guilty; it was the use of torture during the interrogation that was illegal. So...I can only conclude that there's a good chance Peter would have been torn apart by red-hot pliers before being hanged.
RUN PETER RUN
You know, it occurred to me a while back that maybe Peter hanging out in a room in Dublin reading books for years without socializing much was only partly because he enjoyed that sort of thing, and partly because he was still worried about being caught. Since that was why he had left London in the first place.
I'm glad that when he came back to London, circa 1734, he considered it safe to hang out in society with intellectuals, and that the stay in Portugal was for the climate and not because only that was far enough away to be out of FW's reach.
ETA: Also. Do you think FW would have made Fritz watch?
RUN PETER RUN
You know, it occurred to me a while back that maybe Peter hanging out in a room in Dublin reading books for years without socializing much was only partly because he enjoyed that sort of thing, and partly because he was still worried about being caught. Since that was why he had left London in the first place.
I'm glad that when he came back to London, circa 1734, he considered it safe to hang out in society with intellectuals, and that the stay in Portugal was for the climate and not because only that was far enough away to be out of FW's reach.
ETA: Also. Do you think FW would have made Fritz watch?
Edited 2020-10-05 02:18 (UTC)
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective: On the Wings of an Angel
mildred_of_midgard
2020-10-04 03:49 pm (UTC)(link)
More stories from Küstrin about how everyone, not just local nobility but French, Dutch, British and from the other German states keeps sending food and drink to Fritz but under incognito names and everyone is rooting for FW to release him.
I feel like this is a sign that nobody considers his current diet adequate! Though that could admittedly be an SD-type complaint about the appropriateness of the food rather than the amount.
He's sent fool garnments and refuses to wear them (Stratemann: But they were presents! How could he!).
SIGH.
and tore at his hair and strangled him so much that he'd have killed him if (Marcus) had not been saved by the surrounding officers.
SIGH.
SD resenting the hell out of Wilhelmine's accepting the Bayreuth marriage in rl (and in younger Seckendorff's description when Wilhelmine is already married, so we don't have to rely on Wilhelmine's own word about this)
Thank you for reminding me of this. It's good to know when Wilhelmine is backed by independent sources.
Meanwhile, the British envoy: Wilhelmine looked pale and if she'd faint the entire time, and the Queen was upset and almost in tears, and the King glowered. Taking the British bias into acccount, I suppose the truth was somewhere in between, but Stratemann's polyanna-ness is still striking.
Hah. It's so good to have multiple sources with differing biases.
You might recall that Isabella makes a similar pun in a letter to Maria Christina.
I had forgotten that, but will always remember the famous "Non Angli sed Angeli" quip attributed to Gregory the Great many centuries earlier.
FW is hell bent on making Wilhelmine and future Margrave have sex and consumate the marriage before it's a marriage. Why? Because that would make it legal as a marriage, and rumor has it the Brits are making trouble by pointing to Fritz' of Wales' earlier claim to Wilhelmine's hand, which supposedly invalidates her current engagement. Mind you, having read Hervey's memoirs where the whole thing only gets half a sentence mention, I really doubt that, but I can see SD spreading such a rumor via her daughter's governesses, which, see above, I think were Stratemann's sources.
Yep. In her memoirs, Wilhelmine has SD coming to her on the morning of her wedding and telling her, "Whatever you do, DON'T sleep with your husband. We need to be able to nullify this marriage later so you canfulfill your destiny of living the kind of life I wanted to live marry your cousin!"
I feel like this is a sign that nobody considers his current diet adequate! Though that could admittedly be an SD-type complaint about the appropriateness of the food rather than the amount.
He's sent fool garnments and refuses to wear them (Stratemann: But they were presents! How could he!).
SIGH.
and tore at his hair and strangled him so much that he'd have killed him if (Marcus) had not been saved by the surrounding officers.
SIGH.
SD resenting the hell out of Wilhelmine's accepting the Bayreuth marriage in rl (and in younger Seckendorff's description when Wilhelmine is already married, so we don't have to rely on Wilhelmine's own word about this)
Thank you for reminding me of this. It's good to know when Wilhelmine is backed by independent sources.
Meanwhile, the British envoy: Wilhelmine looked pale and if she'd faint the entire time, and the Queen was upset and almost in tears, and the King glowered. Taking the British bias into acccount, I suppose the truth was somewhere in between, but Stratemann's polyanna-ness is still striking.
Hah. It's so good to have multiple sources with differing biases.
You might recall that Isabella makes a similar pun in a letter to Maria Christina.
I had forgotten that, but will always remember the famous "Non Angli sed Angeli" quip attributed to Gregory the Great many centuries earlier.
FW is hell bent on making Wilhelmine and future Margrave have sex and consumate the marriage before it's a marriage. Why? Because that would make it legal as a marriage, and rumor has it the Brits are making trouble by pointing to Fritz' of Wales' earlier claim to Wilhelmine's hand, which supposedly invalidates her current engagement. Mind you, having read Hervey's memoirs where the whole thing only gets half a sentence mention, I really doubt that, but I can see SD spreading such a rumor via her daughter's governesses, which, see above, I think were Stratemann's sources.
Yep. In her memoirs, Wilhelmine has SD coming to her on the morning of her wedding and telling her, "Whatever you do, DON'T sleep with your husband. We need to be able to nullify this marriage later so you can
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective: Family Holidays
mildred_of_midgard
2020-10-04 04:42 pm (UTC)(link)
On the 18th, too of the King's body pages had to stand on the block for four hours at Neumarkt because they'd forgotten to bring the King's overcoat along in the morning for the parade when it had started to rain.
Oh, THAT incident! That's actually ringing a bell; I've read that somewhere before.
Hmm. How many body pages does a king have at one time? I feel like we're increasing the odds that one of them was my low-key fave Peter Keith. Otoh, it says "two of", which means not all, which means perhaps not Peter. Sucks to be them regardless. (I'm just trying to do my duty as biographer.)
Stratemann, interestingly, also provides the entire (French) text of the poem Katte wrote while under arrest at his regiment still in Berlin which you probably know from various biographies.
I do, but I think this is the first time I've seen the whole thing, thank you!
Except the editor has omitted a line:
non sans esperance de
se revoir bientôt
én liberté, quoique
la façon d'ont-il-a-été gardé
Par le temps et la Patience
"la façon d'ont-il-a-été gardé" is grammatically incomplete, has no punctuation before the capital letter of "Par", and thanks to Wilhelmine, we actually know what it said: "the manner in which he is guarded seems to prognosticate something fatal."
It's good to have the full thing (mostly)! Actually, since Wilhelmine wrote in French, I should be able to supply the missing text.
lui fasse augurer quelque chose de funeste.
Oh, this is interesting: she presents the material in a different order, where only the last 5 lines are in verse, and the ones immediately before them, from Celui qu la curiosité on, are in prose, which she says were written below that short verse. The first several lines of the poem, which were new to me, she doesn't reproduce at all.
Berlin, June 31st 1731: Supposedly General Lieutenant v. Katte after leading his regiment at the revue before the King got off his horse and put his sword at the King's feet, and asked again for his demission, whereupon his majesty showed himself very much displeased. Rumor even has it (Hans Heinrich) got arrested as a consequence.
Now, obviously the arrest didn't happen - I don't think biographers would have overlooked that! -, but this is also the first time I heard about Hans Heinrich making this gesture.
Wooow. Yeah, I gather that didn't make it into the Hans Heinrich biographical monograph you picked up at Wust.
Since the revue was a really big public spectacle (this is also why Fritz was pissed off when Heinrich didn't salute him properly in the after the 7 Years War, remember), such a gesture would have been quite something.
Yes, seriously, WOW. Go Hans Heinrich. I'm glad that you don't know what happened to your other sons; you really didn't have good luck there.
And does argue it's FW Hans Heinrich is struggling for forgive. Not to mention that it gives the lie to the "Hans Heinrich totally on board with FW executing his son!" version. All the more so since Stratemann is really the most FW friendly envoy ever.
Yes! More evidence! To go with the commissioned painting and the letters we have from Hans Heinrich, I'm pretty convinced. Plus it makes your theory even more likely as to why Hans Hermann is still in that same wooden coffin from Küstrin, instead of prettying it up to look like a normal death.
Okay, while I doubt Heinrich asking for Dad's portrait was about more than "big sis got something special, I'd like to have one of those as well", it does provide ammo together with the fish for supper at the start of the year if you want to make a case that FW at this early point indulged him somewhat.
Yep! I imagine that had changed by 1736, year of raiding Fritz's larder?
in the midst of this the King took from the Prince the sole much loved valet left
Wait, what? Another much-loved valet? Do we know anything about this individual? Was this just the random Küstrin servant that FW said should come shave him and for a brief period wasn't allowed to even sleep in the same room as Fritz, but had to visit daily?
Now I have a headcanon that the Münchow and/or Lepel got to pick the servant, and they looked around for someone who would be extra nice to this poor abused boy and future monarch whom they want to stay on the good side of.
Man, between this and the letter to Wilhelmine, I'm thinking Fredersdorf did *not* go to Berlin on any of Fritz's visits, at least the early ones, in disguise as a lackey or no. Yikes. :/
Not receiving communion might not seem a harsh punishment to us, but it's actually really nasty, because if Wilhelmine had died during that time, she'd have died in a damned state.
Never use religion to bring comfort when you can use it a stick to wield, says FW.
This was in Oster, which I got to the other day, but thank you for spelling out what it really *meant*. I am never quite clear on the precise theology of things like Pietism (ironically, I know far more about the finer theological points of obscure early Christian schisms than more modern denominations).
Anyway, see what I mean about Wihelmine being kept as much a prisoner as Fritz? Actually more so, since he gets to attend and work in the Küstrin government, which might not be the most thrilling of occupations but is at least something other than sit and brood in a room.
Yep, it definitely sucked in ways that his didn't. On the one hand, she was in proximity to FW and had nothing to occupy her time with besides music (though I like to think that people were smuggling her books, too); on the other, she had music and at least a couple people she loved with her. It sucks to be both of them.
UGH.
Oh, THAT incident! That's actually ringing a bell; I've read that somewhere before.
Hmm. How many body pages does a king have at one time? I feel like we're increasing the odds that one of them was my low-key fave Peter Keith. Otoh, it says "two of", which means not all, which means perhaps not Peter. Sucks to be them regardless. (I'm just trying to do my duty as biographer.)
Stratemann, interestingly, also provides the entire (French) text of the poem Katte wrote while under arrest at his regiment still in Berlin which you probably know from various biographies.
I do, but I think this is the first time I've seen the whole thing, thank you!
Except the editor has omitted a line:
non sans esperance de
se revoir bientôt
én liberté, quoique
la façon d'ont-il-a-été gardé
Par le temps et la Patience
"la façon d'ont-il-a-été gardé" is grammatically incomplete, has no punctuation before the capital letter of "Par", and thanks to Wilhelmine, we actually know what it said: "the manner in which he is guarded seems to prognosticate something fatal."
It's good to have the full thing (mostly)! Actually, since Wilhelmine wrote in French, I should be able to supply the missing text.
lui fasse augurer quelque chose de funeste.
Oh, this is interesting: she presents the material in a different order, where only the last 5 lines are in verse, and the ones immediately before them, from Celui qu la curiosité on, are in prose, which she says were written below that short verse. The first several lines of the poem, which were new to me, she doesn't reproduce at all.
Berlin, June 31st 1731: Supposedly General Lieutenant v. Katte after leading his regiment at the revue before the King got off his horse and put his sword at the King's feet, and asked again for his demission, whereupon his majesty showed himself very much displeased. Rumor even has it (Hans Heinrich) got arrested as a consequence.
Now, obviously the arrest didn't happen - I don't think biographers would have overlooked that! -, but this is also the first time I heard about Hans Heinrich making this gesture.
Wooow. Yeah, I gather that didn't make it into the Hans Heinrich biographical monograph you picked up at Wust.
Since the revue was a really big public spectacle (this is also why Fritz was pissed off when Heinrich didn't salute him properly in the after the 7 Years War, remember), such a gesture would have been quite something.
Yes, seriously, WOW. Go Hans Heinrich. I'm glad that you don't know what happened to your other sons; you really didn't have good luck there.
And does argue it's FW Hans Heinrich is struggling for forgive. Not to mention that it gives the lie to the "Hans Heinrich totally on board with FW executing his son!" version. All the more so since Stratemann is really the most FW friendly envoy ever.
Yes! More evidence! To go with the commissioned painting and the letters we have from Hans Heinrich, I'm pretty convinced. Plus it makes your theory even more likely as to why Hans Hermann is still in that same wooden coffin from Küstrin, instead of prettying it up to look like a normal death.
Okay, while I doubt Heinrich asking for Dad's portrait was about more than "big sis got something special, I'd like to have one of those as well", it does provide ammo together with the fish for supper at the start of the year if you want to make a case that FW at this early point indulged him somewhat.
Yep! I imagine that had changed by 1736, year of raiding Fritz's larder?
in the midst of this the King took from the Prince the sole much loved valet left
Wait, what? Another much-loved valet? Do we know anything about this individual? Was this just the random Küstrin servant that FW said should come shave him and for a brief period wasn't allowed to even sleep in the same room as Fritz, but had to visit daily?
Now I have a headcanon that the Münchow and/or Lepel got to pick the servant, and they looked around for someone who would be extra nice to this poor abused boy and future monarch whom they want to stay on the good side of.
Man, between this and the letter to Wilhelmine, I'm thinking Fredersdorf did *not* go to Berlin on any of Fritz's visits, at least the early ones, in disguise as a lackey or no. Yikes. :/
Not receiving communion might not seem a harsh punishment to us, but it's actually really nasty, because if Wilhelmine had died during that time, she'd have died in a damned state.
Never use religion to bring comfort when you can use it a stick to wield, says FW.
This was in Oster, which I got to the other day, but thank you for spelling out what it really *meant*. I am never quite clear on the precise theology of things like Pietism (ironically, I know far more about the finer theological points of obscure early Christian schisms than more modern denominations).
Anyway, see what I mean about Wihelmine being kept as much a prisoner as Fritz? Actually more so, since he gets to attend and work in the Küstrin government, which might not be the most thrilling of occupations but is at least something other than sit and brood in a room.
Yep, it definitely sucked in ways that his didn't. On the one hand, she was in proximity to FW and had nothing to occupy her time with besides music (though I like to think that people were smuggling her books, too); on the other, she had music and at least a couple people she loved with her. It sucks to be both of them.
UGH.
Email away. They all speak English. Seriously. Knowledge of other foreign languages like French, or Latin, or Spanish, or Russian, or Greek depends on what type of school you visit, but everyone going to a German school who is younger than, oh, 6o, had to take English to a level where they can correspond in and talk it.
You know, English-speaking Germans always tell me this, but every time I go to Germany and have to rely on English to get around, I find myself completely unable to get simple questions like "How much are tickets?" or "Where are the spoons?" answered outside of airports and hotels. I've always figured it's like algebra and geometry being required subjects in the US: as long as you scrape through the class, you don't have to be able to perform on the spot decades later.
That said, I'm willing to grant that archivists replying to emails are more likely than, say, people staffing a museum on foot, to have the necessary competence in English to make up for my lack of German. Plus, if they're even willing to reply in German, I'm in a much better position to understand the answer than I was when put on the spot with by people speaking German to me ten years ago.
I will give it a try!
(Btw, it's for this reason that I would like to get my comprehension of spoken German up to basic proficiency someday--not now, I can only do one thing at a time--namely that people kept speaking German to me in Germany and not being able to switch to English when it was clear I hadn't a clue what they were saying, and that made for far more stressful situations than did my inability to make myself understood in German.)
So who did make the suggestion?
Preuss's footnote is kind of complicated, and requires more research than I've had time to do yet, but at any rate, it doesn't tell me whose *idea* it was, just the lines of communication along which the idea traveled to Fritz. So Villiers sent a letter to the Dutch envoy von Ginkel, who sent it to Podewils, who sent it to Fritz.
So far I've figured out that Villiers is this guy, who was British envoy to Berlin from 1746 to 1748. Von Ginkel I haven't turned up yet. So there's a chance Villiers knew Peter personally (maybe Peter hung out with British envoys to practice his English and ask after people he knew? or scheme for positions as envoy to Britain??), but I feel like someone in England still would have had to think this was a good idea.
But maybe it was Villiers' idea, and he acted on it unilaterally.
Oh,cahn, I forgot to spell out that when Algarotti is sent to Turin and Keith's son to Sardinia, those are the same place. The court of Sardinia was in Turin during our period (like Brandenburg-Prussia, it was a composite state).
Of course, an irresistable fanwank occurs to me: Peter did meet Algarotti....and young Andrew Mitchell. By 1747, Andrew Mitchell was rising in the ranks of the foreign office - not yet enough to be envoy himself, but he was certainly forming connections with Lords Holderness and Newcastle. Maybe he recced Peter?
But I'm totally on board with this! Besides, I do think before you suggest to a foreign king that he send a particular envoy to your country, you maybe get a thumbs up from your court, in case said prospective envoy created all kinds of bad feelings there ten years ago that you don't know about?
Fritz the paranoid being Fritz the paranoid: unsurprising, if bad for Peter.
My thoughts exactly. I really do hope things warmed up between them in the 1750s, but it's quite possible that you're right that his memoirs "got disappeared" because they were too critical of post-1740 Fritz.
Definitely Fritz' favourite husband, too.
<3
Lovely! I was wondering about her fate in your AU.
Originally, she had none, but then I developed her for that fic, and now I think they're really good for each other and I ship them. :D So I spent a while banging my head against the question of how to get them to meet up at the right time, and finally came up with a solution.
Fredersdorf, alas, hasn't found a way into this fic, but given that Fritz gets to live with Wilhelmine (who, like him, never marries) AND Katte AND Keith AND (to at least some degree that I haven't decided) Suhm, Fredersdorf/Fritz might just have to fall through the cracks in this AU.
You know, English-speaking Germans always tell me this, but every time I go to Germany and have to rely on English to get around, I find myself completely unable to get simple questions like "How much are tickets?" or "Where are the spoons?" answered outside of airports and hotels. I've always figured it's like algebra and geometry being required subjects in the US: as long as you scrape through the class, you don't have to be able to perform on the spot decades later.
That said, I'm willing to grant that archivists replying to emails are more likely than, say, people staffing a museum on foot, to have the necessary competence in English to make up for my lack of German. Plus, if they're even willing to reply in German, I'm in a much better position to understand the answer than I was when put on the spot with by people speaking German to me ten years ago.
I will give it a try!
(Btw, it's for this reason that I would like to get my comprehension of spoken German up to basic proficiency someday--not now, I can only do one thing at a time--namely that people kept speaking German to me in Germany and not being able to switch to English when it was clear I hadn't a clue what they were saying, and that made for far more stressful situations than did my inability to make myself understood in German.)
So who did make the suggestion?
Preuss's footnote is kind of complicated, and requires more research than I've had time to do yet, but at any rate, it doesn't tell me whose *idea* it was, just the lines of communication along which the idea traveled to Fritz. So Villiers sent a letter to the Dutch envoy von Ginkel, who sent it to Podewils, who sent it to Fritz.
So far I've figured out that Villiers is this guy, who was British envoy to Berlin from 1746 to 1748. Von Ginkel I haven't turned up yet. So there's a chance Villiers knew Peter personally (maybe Peter hung out with British envoys to practice his English and ask after people he knew? or scheme for positions as envoy to Britain??), but I feel like someone in England still would have had to think this was a good idea.
But maybe it was Villiers' idea, and he acted on it unilaterally.
Oh,
cahn, I forgot to spell out that when Algarotti is sent to Turin and Keith's son to Sardinia, those are the same place. The court of Sardinia was in Turin during our period (like Brandenburg-Prussia, it was a composite state).Of course, an irresistable fanwank occurs to me: Peter did meet Algarotti....and young Andrew Mitchell. By 1747, Andrew Mitchell was rising in the ranks of the foreign office - not yet enough to be envoy himself, but he was certainly forming connections with Lords Holderness and Newcastle. Maybe he recced Peter?
But I'm totally on board with this! Besides, I do think before you suggest to a foreign king that he send a particular envoy to your country, you maybe get a thumbs up from your court, in case said prospective envoy created all kinds of bad feelings there ten years ago that you don't know about?
Fritz the paranoid being Fritz the paranoid: unsurprising, if bad for Peter.
My thoughts exactly. I really do hope things warmed up between them in the 1750s, but it's quite possible that you're right that his memoirs "got disappeared" because they were too critical of post-1740 Fritz.
Definitely Fritz' favourite husband, too.
<3
Lovely! I was wondering about her fate in your AU.
Originally, she had none, but then I developed her for that fic, and now I think they're really good for each other and I ship them. :D So I spent a while banging my head against the question of how to get them to meet up at the right time, and finally came up with a solution.
Fredersdorf, alas, hasn't found a way into this fic, but given that Fritz gets to live with Wilhelmine (who, like him, never marries) AND Katte AND Keith AND (to at least some degree that I haven't decided) Suhm, Fredersdorf/Fritz might just have to fall through the cracks in this AU.
Edited 2020-10-05 02:06 (UTC)
Oh, this is interesting: she presents the material in a different order, where only the last 5 lines are in verse, and the ones immediately before them, from Celui qu la curiosité on, are in prose, which she says were written below that short verse. The first several lines of the poem, which were new to me, she doesn't reproduce at all.
I wonder whether that means that whoever was her source and wrote it down for her - I imagine Wilhelmine didn't go herself to an army barrack - copied it badly, or whether she was just told it verbally and writes it out of her memory twenty years later? That is assuming Stratemann has the correct version, but since he's writing at the time and has no problem copying down the exact text since no one should object to the Braunschweig envoy doing such a thing, I'm assuming so.
Yeah, I gather that didn't make it into the Hans Heinrich biographical monograph you picked up at Wust.
Nope. Would have blown quite a hole into his theory.
WOW. Go Hans Heinrich.
That's what I think. I mean, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that he has mixed feelings about Fritz as well, but mostly this points to him struggling to reconcile the loyalty he feels he ows his sovereign with being a grieving father who thinks his son, while deserving some punishment (I think Hans Heinrich would have been okay with some years in prison - well, ashamed, but okay in terms of considering it just), was taken from him by this man, and not higher justice.
Your plan for the AU in which he and Hans Herrmann have a heart to heart later in life looks more plausible than ever.
Yep! I imagine that had changed by 1736, year of raiding Fritz's larder?
So I would gather. Not least because there's a big difference between a four years old child who until Ferdinand is the baby of the family and a ten years old child. FW's imagine of himself as a loving dad can be amplified by adoring small children. (Note that little Wilhelmine wrote him affectionate "dear Papa" letters, too, when she was around that age and older.) Who get Christmas treats, and who get indulged when they ask for favors (like AW for the pardon) or gifts. Otoh, ten years olds who like books and music are a different matter. Stratemann's reports don't extend to that period, but younger Seckendorff is writing into his journal then, and the only two kid-related anecdotes I recall is a) young AW fainting in the tobacco parliament, and b) Ferdinand (who's the indulged five years old then) cheeking Grumbkow about handing over bread and being a Field Marshal. (Unless we count "Junior"'s pronouncement that Heinrich and Ferdinand have a bad nature, Ferdinand is the worst and AW is good natured but with the education of a peasant.) What we do have, otoh, from that era is FW's statement - quoted in several biographies - that he doesn't make predictions about his children except about AW who would be an "honnete homme" and a great one, surely. So I'm still going with the assumption that the indulgence for Heinrich on those two occasions in 1730 was based on him being the baby of the family, the position he just lost to Ferdinand who however was an actual baby and couldn't yet interact with Dad, and once Heinrich left tiny cutie phase behind and developed interests that were not FW's, he faded into the background with the other kids, with AW the constant male favourite and the female favourite being Charlotte and Ulrike in turns.
Wait, what? Another much-loved valet? Do we know anything about this individual? Was this just the random Küstrin servant that FW said should come shave him and for a brief period wasn't allowed to even sleep in the same room as Fritz, but had to visit daily?
Must be, since I don't think the valet he had before, the one who also shows up in the interrogation protocols, was with him in Küstrin at any point?
It sucks to be both of them.
Absolutely. And that's why I'm majorly sideeying those editors and historians who are complaining about her being a bad daughter, or hysterical, and that poor FW was the one to be pitied, with his wife and two oldest ganging up on him. He had all the power, and no, not every word Wilhelmine wrote in the memoirs was true, but she probably was as accurate as most people looking back at very traumatic events years later and using the writing as a chance to vent and in lack of actual therapy.
It's also always important to remember that while many a contemporary thought FW was over the top with his reactions, both Fritz and Wilhelmine would still have gotten the message that it was his right to treat them this way both as monarch and as father from all sides. And while they hated him, they didn't, I fear, ever stop loving him as well and wanting his approval and a "Well done, you".
On a lighter note, Hervey in his memoirs has this passage of G2 ranting about how lousy sons are the worst, absolute scum, fathers are martyrs, and then he suddenly recalls his own dear old dad and adds, yes, okay, there are bad fathers and good sons as well. And, says, Hervey, it was clear to everyone hearing this that G2 was thinking of himself both as the cardinal example of a wronged father and a wronged son. Meanwhile, FW, only child of two parents who despite being very different from him both seem to have loved him and whose most most debatable action was a) to send him to live with his cousins for a while, and b) given him a strict Calvinist as a teacher when he was ten: Of course there are no bad fathers! Fathers should only be loved and listened to and adored! There are no exceptions!
I wonder whether that means that whoever was her source and wrote it down for her - I imagine Wilhelmine didn't go herself to an army barrack - copied it badly, or whether she was just told it verbally and writes it out of her memory twenty years later? That is assuming Stratemann has the correct version, but since he's writing at the time and has no problem copying down the exact text since no one should object to the Braunschweig envoy doing such a thing, I'm assuming so.
Yeah, I gather that didn't make it into the Hans Heinrich biographical monograph you picked up at Wust.
Nope. Would have blown quite a hole into his theory.
WOW. Go Hans Heinrich.
That's what I think. I mean, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that he has mixed feelings about Fritz as well, but mostly this points to him struggling to reconcile the loyalty he feels he ows his sovereign with being a grieving father who thinks his son, while deserving some punishment (I think Hans Heinrich would have been okay with some years in prison - well, ashamed, but okay in terms of considering it just), was taken from him by this man, and not higher justice.
Your plan for the AU in which he and Hans Herrmann have a heart to heart later in life looks more plausible than ever.
Yep! I imagine that had changed by 1736, year of raiding Fritz's larder?
So I would gather. Not least because there's a big difference between a four years old child who until Ferdinand is the baby of the family and a ten years old child. FW's imagine of himself as a loving dad can be amplified by adoring small children. (Note that little Wilhelmine wrote him affectionate "dear Papa" letters, too, when she was around that age and older.) Who get Christmas treats, and who get indulged when they ask for favors (like AW for the pardon) or gifts. Otoh, ten years olds who like books and music are a different matter. Stratemann's reports don't extend to that period, but younger Seckendorff is writing into his journal then, and the only two kid-related anecdotes I recall is a) young AW fainting in the tobacco parliament, and b) Ferdinand (who's the indulged five years old then) cheeking Grumbkow about handing over bread and being a Field Marshal. (Unless we count "Junior"'s pronouncement that Heinrich and Ferdinand have a bad nature, Ferdinand is the worst and AW is good natured but with the education of a peasant.) What we do have, otoh, from that era is FW's statement - quoted in several biographies - that he doesn't make predictions about his children except about AW who would be an "honnete homme" and a great one, surely. So I'm still going with the assumption that the indulgence for Heinrich on those two occasions in 1730 was based on him being the baby of the family, the position he just lost to Ferdinand who however was an actual baby and couldn't yet interact with Dad, and once Heinrich left tiny cutie phase behind and developed interests that were not FW's, he faded into the background with the other kids, with AW the constant male favourite and the female favourite being Charlotte and Ulrike in turns.
Wait, what? Another much-loved valet? Do we know anything about this individual? Was this just the random Küstrin servant that FW said should come shave him and for a brief period wasn't allowed to even sleep in the same room as Fritz, but had to visit daily?
Must be, since I don't think the valet he had before, the one who also shows up in the interrogation protocols, was with him in Küstrin at any point?
It sucks to be both of them.
Absolutely. And that's why I'm majorly sideeying those editors and historians who are complaining about her being a bad daughter, or hysterical, and that poor FW was the one to be pitied, with his wife and two oldest ganging up on him. He had all the power, and no, not every word Wilhelmine wrote in the memoirs was true, but she probably was as accurate as most people looking back at very traumatic events years later and using the writing as a chance to vent and in lack of actual therapy.
It's also always important to remember that while many a contemporary thought FW was over the top with his reactions, both Fritz and Wilhelmine would still have gotten the message that it was his right to treat them this way both as monarch and as father from all sides. And while they hated him, they didn't, I fear, ever stop loving him as well and wanting his approval and a "Well done, you".
On a lighter note, Hervey in his memoirs has this passage of G2 ranting about how lousy sons are the worst, absolute scum, fathers are martyrs, and then he suddenly recalls his own dear old dad and adds, yes, okay, there are bad fathers and good sons as well. And, says, Hervey, it was clear to everyone hearing this that G2 was thinking of himself both as the cardinal example of a wronged father and a wronged son. Meanwhile, FW, only child of two parents who despite being very different from him both seem to have loved him and whose most most debatable action was a) to send him to live with his cousins for a while, and b) given him a strict Calvinist as a teacher when he was ten: Of course there are no bad fathers! Fathers should only be loved and listened to and adored! There are no exceptions!
Why do I feel like in somewhere between a day and a week we are going to see a LOT more action in this already action-packed fandom?
Lol. I can see why you might think so, but it took me 4 months to finally email Trinity after finding the eulogy, and no, it didn't take me 4 months to think of it. I immediately thought of it. It took me 4 months to get around to. So...we'll see.
And those of you who might write fic about Peter Keith, you know who you are, could totally put it in the fic :D
LOLOL. On a totally unrelated note, I'm looking forward to Yuletide. :D
Lol. I can see why you might think so, but it took me 4 months to finally email Trinity after finding the eulogy, and no, it didn't take me 4 months to think of it. I immediately thought of it. It took me 4 months to get around to. So...we'll see.
And those of you who might write fic about Peter Keith, you know who you are, could totally put it in the fic :D
LOLOL. On a totally unrelated note, I'm looking forward to Yuletide. :D
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Everyone dies off
mildred_of_midgard
2020-10-04 05:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Weeelll...if you assume Kalckreuth put in half as much effort with the much older woman he was forced to marry as a symbol of his humiliation *and* who played an active role (unlike EC and Mina) as he did with the prince who was, regardless of personal feelings, and let's hope there were some, his path to fame and fortune...
In other words, I hope so too, but I have my doubts. :(
In other words, I hope so too, but I have my doubts. :(
Well, maybe he was one of those types who hated to be bad at something, including sex.
And you know that I think there were some feelings for Heinrich beyond ambition. I mean, an attempt like the one to see Heinrich again in the aftermath of Heinrich's second journey to Rußland (the one where Lehndorff got to give him the brush off and enjoyed every minute) could be because he still thought if they made up, he'd get back on track with fame and fortune. But after Fritz was dead, Kalckreuth's career revived and took off, big time, and Heinrich was out in the cold, so to speak, with no more influence or a career, yet Kalkcreuth wanted to see him again and at last reconcile, and did. Also, what I've read of his memoirs is ego-tastic, to be sure, but actually far more positive about Heinrich (and Fritz critical) than Ziebura led me to expect, and these were written in the 19th century, when the next generations were all Fritz worshippers and hardly knew who Heinrich had been anymore. In conclusion: Kalckreuth: a bastard and a jerk. But he did care about Heinrich.
...which of course doesn't make it more likely that he had a good sex life with his first wife, but like I said: maybe he was in a "I'll show you" mood. Also according to Lehndorff he had gotten a lot of the women of Heinrich's little court at his side, so he could be charming to the ladies if he wanted to be.
And you know that I think there were some feelings for Heinrich beyond ambition. I mean, an attempt like the one to see Heinrich again in the aftermath of Heinrich's second journey to Rußland (the one where Lehndorff got to give him the brush off and enjoyed every minute) could be because he still thought if they made up, he'd get back on track with fame and fortune. But after Fritz was dead, Kalckreuth's career revived and took off, big time, and Heinrich was out in the cold, so to speak, with no more influence or a career, yet Kalkcreuth wanted to see him again and at last reconcile, and did. Also, what I've read of his memoirs is ego-tastic, to be sure, but actually far more positive about Heinrich (and Fritz critical) than Ziebura led me to expect, and these were written in the 19th century, when the next generations were all Fritz worshippers and hardly knew who Heinrich had been anymore. In conclusion: Kalckreuth: a bastard and a jerk. But he did care about Heinrich.
...which of course doesn't make it more likely that he had a good sex life with his first wife, but like I said: maybe he was in a "I'll show you" mood. Also according to Lehndorff he had gotten a lot of the women of Heinrich's little court at his side, so he could be charming to the ladies if he wanted to be.
Speaking of reading non-German books, I've finished "Domestic Enemies", and it is indeed very good. (Though I suspect only partly applicable to the German states within the same period.)
Indeed, which is why all my beta emails tocahn were heavily caveated with "This is France! The author even points out that England and Italy and the Netherlands were different! And who even knows with FW and SD. Expectations for servants probably changed depending on who was in residence on a given day!"
And hooray on you reading a book featuring my guy Boswell (among others)!
I have to admit the author doooooes noooot like Boswell. Well, as an author, yes. But as a person, not so much.
you might say I know the cast. *g*)
And quite an extensive cast it is! Boswell and Johnson, of course, but also Edmund Burke, Joshua Reynolds, Frances Reynolds, Thomas Sheridan, Elizabeth Sheridan, Oliver Goldsmith, David Garrick, Fanny Burney, Hester Thrales, Adam Smith, Edward Gibbon, Charlotte Lennox, and others.
So far, Garrick is my favorite. The history of acting was *fascinating*.
Indeed, which is why all my beta emails to
cahn were heavily caveated with "This is France! The author even points out that England and Italy and the Netherlands were different! And who even knows with FW and SD. Expectations for servants probably changed depending on who was in residence on a given day!"And hooray on you reading a book featuring my guy Boswell (among others)!
I have to admit the author doooooes noooot like Boswell. Well, as an author, yes. But as a person, not so much.
you might say I know the cast. *g*)
And quite an extensive cast it is! Boswell and Johnson, of course, but also Edmund Burke, Joshua Reynolds, Frances Reynolds, Thomas Sheridan, Elizabeth Sheridan, Oliver Goldsmith, David Garrick, Fanny Burney, Hester Thrales, Adam Smith, Edward Gibbon, Charlotte Lennox, and others.
So far, Garrick is my favorite. The history of acting was *fascinating*.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Everyone dies off
mildred_of_midgard
2020-10-04 06:04 pm (UTC)(link)
And you know that I think there were some feelings for Heinrich beyond ambition.
Yes, and that is some convincing evidence. I buy it.
...which of course doesn't make it more likely that he had a good sex life with his first wife, but like I said: maybe he was in a "I'll show you" mood.
I hope so!
Also according to Lehndorff he had gotten a lot of the women of Heinrich's little court at his side, so he could be charming to the ladies if he wanted to be.
Definitely, and that did occur to me. Let's hope he kept it up with the heroine of this tragedy.
Yes, and that is some convincing evidence. I buy it.
...which of course doesn't make it more likely that he had a good sex life with his first wife, but like I said: maybe he was in a "I'll show you" mood.
I hope so!
Also according to Lehndorff he had gotten a lot of the women of Heinrich's little court at his side, so he could be charming to the ladies if he wanted to be.
Definitely, and that did occur to me. Let's hope he kept it up with the heroine of this tragedy.
First of all: when did Wilhelmine's one and only visit to Rheinsberg (which coincided with the last time Fritz was there as far as I recall, after he was King already) happen?
October 1740, so the same time as Voltaire, who was also disappointed that he didn't get an immediate summons and an offer like Algarotti.
So I think Fritz, very set on remaking himself in the eyes of the public as der Einzige König, wanted to make it absolutely clear that no, he was NOT going to be influenced or dominated by anyone, including his favourite sister.
That does make sense. I've always thought that was part of the same reason he kept Peter at a distance (beyond the timing: Peter only returned to Prussia at the time Fritz was busy planning the Silesia invasion): he didn't want Peter trying to parlay his sacrifice into power. I originally had him spelling this out in the fic, but after revisions there wasn't really a place for it, and so that whole exchange got condensed down to, "I don't have to worry about you making a power grab, I gather?"--the implication being that that had been on his mind.
Paranoid Fritz is paranoid Fritz, as you say. And beyond that, public opinion matters a lot to him.
The saying actually is "ich wünschte, die Tage hätten mehr als 24 Stunden". I suspect the editor slipped up and didn't catch some leftout words.
Ah. We have that saying too! (It's hard enough to read in German without words getting left out, lol. This is like the time I managed to struggle my way through two pages of blackletter font, except where half a letter didn't get printed and I guessed the wrong letter, which changed the whole meaning of the word.)
Herbal tea: commonly associated with curing cold. You get doused with it by your doctors. Very sensible, not-well-tasting and unerotic.
Ah, okay. I don't have those connotations with herbal teas. (Maybe other Americans do, idk.) That makes sense, thank you.
Note Fritz is casting Voltaire as his mistress there.
Yes, that I noticed! Later, of course, he will cast him as Aeneas and himself as Dido. And Voltaire will cast Fritz as Alcina. Look, even if that letter was totally faked, Voltaire, you're still gay-as-hell-for-Fritz. :P
October 1740, so the same time as Voltaire, who was also disappointed that he didn't get an immediate summons and an offer like Algarotti.
So I think Fritz, very set on remaking himself in the eyes of the public as der Einzige König, wanted to make it absolutely clear that no, he was NOT going to be influenced or dominated by anyone, including his favourite sister.
That does make sense. I've always thought that was part of the same reason he kept Peter at a distance (beyond the timing: Peter only returned to Prussia at the time Fritz was busy planning the Silesia invasion): he didn't want Peter trying to parlay his sacrifice into power. I originally had him spelling this out in the fic, but after revisions there wasn't really a place for it, and so that whole exchange got condensed down to, "I don't have to worry about you making a power grab, I gather?"--the implication being that that had been on his mind.
Paranoid Fritz is paranoid Fritz, as you say. And beyond that, public opinion matters a lot to him.
The saying actually is "ich wünschte, die Tage hätten mehr als 24 Stunden". I suspect the editor slipped up and didn't catch some leftout words.
Ah. We have that saying too! (It's hard enough to read in German without words getting left out, lol. This is like the time I managed to struggle my way through two pages of blackletter font, except where half a letter didn't get printed and I guessed the wrong letter, which changed the whole meaning of the word.)
Herbal tea: commonly associated with curing cold. You get doused with it by your doctors. Very sensible, not-well-tasting and unerotic.
Ah, okay. I don't have those connotations with herbal teas. (Maybe other Americans do, idk.) That makes sense, thank you.
Note Fritz is casting Voltaire as his mistress there.
Yes, that I noticed! Later, of course, he will cast him as Aeneas and himself as Dido. And Voltaire will cast Fritz as Alcina. Look, even if that letter was totally faked, Voltaire, you're still gay-as-hell-for-Fritz. :P
It usually means "brother-in-law", but in old fashioned German, it used to mean any male in-law, which the old Margrave was.
Aahhh. Thank you!
And I did translate Wilhelmine's letter about her husband being adorable about the baby for you back in the day.
I indeed remembered the adorable good father part, but not the part where he told Wilhelmine not to tell and Wilhelmine promptly told.
But Fritz quite openly writes to Wilhelmine in the 1750s, when she's fretting about her daughter's marriage, that "the only interest I have in your daughter is because of her mother".
Oh, yes, I remember how he was, and my "awww" was 100% about Wilhelmine/Fritz feels at the time of the birth, not about his A+ godparenting/uncle-ing later in life.
Thank you for the German correction! The problem with my German at this point is that I can figure things like this out...if I'm willing to work for them. And in this case, I was typing fast and translating from a very faded memory, instead of rereading. (I.e. I'm pretty sure I got it when actually reading it a couple weeks ago.) My goal is to get to the point where the meaning jumps off the page at me!
Keep the corrections coming. :)
Aahhh. Thank you!
And I did translate Wilhelmine's letter about her husband being adorable about the baby for you back in the day.
I indeed remembered the adorable good father part, but not the part where he told Wilhelmine not to tell and Wilhelmine promptly told.
But Fritz quite openly writes to Wilhelmine in the 1750s, when she's fretting about her daughter's marriage, that "the only interest I have in your daughter is because of her mother".
Oh, yes, I remember how he was, and my "awww" was 100% about Wilhelmine/Fritz feels at the time of the birth, not about his A+ godparenting/uncle-ing later in life.
Thank you for the German correction! The problem with my German at this point is that I can figure things like this out...if I'm willing to work for them. And in this case, I was typing fast and translating from a very faded memory, instead of rereading. (I.e. I'm pretty sure I got it when actually reading it a couple weeks ago.) My goal is to get to the point where the meaning jumps off the page at me!
Keep the corrections coming. :)
It is, and I've always felt that someone should write a novel about Garrick's big Shakespeare festival at Stratford which was the single event most responsible for changing Shakespeare's status into a national treasure. Also, compared with moody superstar Edmund Kean who came after, the sheer, well, normalcy of Garrick's life style when not on stage is amazing. He just seems to have been a nice person.
As to the author not liking Boswell as a person, well, it happens. I mean, I've written an entire post as to why I like him, so I won't repeat that all here, but limit myself to a few bullet points not related to Boswell as an author:
- for all his celebrity seeking outs, Boswell is also the guy who defends luckless thieves of sheep, gets his guy off the first time but not again eight years later for the same offense, and then stays with him in his last hours so he isn't alone and comforts him; this isn't a famous highwayman, just a poor Scotsman named John Reid unkown to anyone (and who would be unknown to us, too, if he wasn't in Boswell's journal)
- (Boswell also defends convict and ocean crosser Mary Bryant when she makes it back to England, but since the ocean crossing won her fame, I don't suppose that counts in the same way)
- when his little daughter Veronica decides there is no God and pronounces this out loud, Boswell, religious 18th century Protestant Scotsman with a very strict authoritarian father he's on bad terms with, does not react by punishing his daughter or admonishing her or frightening her with outwardly shown disapproval/shock. First he seeks consults a self help book checks whether there are any parenting books advising what to do. Not finding any to his satisfaction, he next decides to ask Veronica how she got the idea, not aggressively (we know because he gives us the entire scene in dialogue), and finding she decided because she got told God took *dead person X* if there was no God, there would be no dead people, patiently explains this would not be the case, so Veronica is good with God again
- when Johson and the other guys in the club think you could be happy with any random woman in marriage, Boswell - who can't stop having casual sex, but also loves his wife, disagrees: I have a strong imagination that I could not have been so happy in marriage with any other woman as with my dear wife. I cannot tell why, so as to give any rational explanation to the others. I only know or fancy that there are qualities and compositions of qualities (to talk in musical metaphor) which in the course of our lives appear to me in her that please me more than what I have perceived in any other woman, and which I cannot separate from her identity.
- Boswell comes off way better than Hester Thrale (in particular) or several of Johnson's other friends when it comes to Francis Barber, Johnson's black servant who also was Johnson's main heir (with which Hawkings and Thrale and several others, but not Boswell who liked and supported him, had a problem); more about this in my review of Francis Barber's biography here, and as you know, I think that how you treat those below you in the hierarchy, especially if you yourself have fallen on hard times, is one of the best testimony's of character.
As to the author not liking Boswell as a person, well, it happens. I mean, I've written an entire post as to why I like him, so I won't repeat that all here, but limit myself to a few bullet points not related to Boswell as an author:
- for all his celebrity seeking outs, Boswell is also the guy who defends luckless thieves of sheep, gets his guy off the first time but not again eight years later for the same offense, and then stays with him in his last hours so he isn't alone and comforts him; this isn't a famous highwayman, just a poor Scotsman named John Reid unkown to anyone (and who would be unknown to us, too, if he wasn't in Boswell's journal)
- (Boswell also defends convict and ocean crosser Mary Bryant when she makes it back to England, but since the ocean crossing won her fame, I don't suppose that counts in the same way)
- when his little daughter Veronica decides there is no God and pronounces this out loud, Boswell, religious 18th century Protestant Scotsman with a very strict authoritarian father he's on bad terms with, does not react by punishing his daughter or admonishing her or frightening her with outwardly shown disapproval/shock. First he
- when Johson and the other guys in the club think you could be happy with any random woman in marriage, Boswell - who can't stop having casual sex, but also loves his wife, disagrees: I have a strong imagination that I could not have been so happy in marriage with any other woman as with my dear wife. I cannot tell why, so as to give any rational explanation to the others. I only know or fancy that there are qualities and compositions of qualities (to talk in musical metaphor) which in the course of our lives appear to me in her that please me more than what I have perceived in any other woman, and which I cannot separate from her identity.
- Boswell comes off way better than Hester Thrale (in particular) or several of Johnson's other friends when it comes to Francis Barber, Johnson's black servant who also was Johnson's main heir (with which Hawkings and Thrale and several others, but not Boswell who liked and supported him, had a problem); more about this in my review of Francis Barber's biography here, and as you know, I think that how you treat those below you in the hierarchy, especially if you yourself have fallen on hard times, is one of the best testimony's of character.
Edited 2020-10-04 18:32 (UTC)
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective: Family Holidays
mildred_of_midgard
2020-10-04 06:35 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm mentally translating that description to "FW was extra considerate to SD in the vain hope of getting laid again, but no dice".
OH GOD, you're right!
I'm laughing so hard right now.
Now: I'm perfectly willing to believe Wilhemine had headaches along with being locked up. She suffered from migraines often in her life, and until shortly before Katte's execution, there was a real prospect her brother would be killed.
Oh yeah, and in her memoirs, she recorded that she didn't know whether *she* would have to face a public interrogation. And Sonsine is getting threatened too. I'm sure she had all KINDS of psychosomatic symptoms. :/
...but that bit about Katte is what truly intrigues me, because I can't think of why either Stratemann or his source (whether or not the source is Joucoulles) should make that up. On the contrary, a story of Wilhelmine asking repeatedly how Katte is doing could be risky to her reputation (given that FW in the big homecoming scene accused her of having an affair with him)
Hmm, yes, that is interesting. And you're right, that is an unlikely thing to make up. Perhaps she thought that Katte's fate functioned as a barometer of FW's mood, as it pertained to both her and Fritz. Especially since she *was* linked to Katte in this affair: with the letters and incriminating evidence.
OH GOD, you're right!
I'm laughing so hard right now.
Now: I'm perfectly willing to believe Wilhemine had headaches along with being locked up. She suffered from migraines often in her life, and until shortly before Katte's execution, there was a real prospect her brother would be killed.
Oh yeah, and in her memoirs, she recorded that she didn't know whether *she* would have to face a public interrogation. And Sonsine is getting threatened too. I'm sure she had all KINDS of psychosomatic symptoms. :/
...but that bit about Katte is what truly intrigues me, because I can't think of why either Stratemann or his source (whether or not the source is Joucoulles) should make that up. On the contrary, a story of Wilhelmine asking repeatedly how Katte is doing could be risky to her reputation (given that FW in the big homecoming scene accused her of having an affair with him)
Hmm, yes, that is interesting. And you're right, that is an unlikely thing to make up. Perhaps she thought that Katte's fate functioned as a barometer of FW's mood, as it pertained to both her and Fritz. Especially since she *was* linked to Katte in this affair: with the letters and incriminating evidence.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective: Family Holidays
mildred_of_midgard
2020-10-04 06:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I gather that didn't make it into the Hans Heinrich biographical monograph you picked up at Wust.
Nope. Would have blown quite a hole into his theory.
*g*
mostly this points to him struggling to reconcile the loyalty he feels he ows his sovereign with being a grieving father who thinks his son, while deserving some punishment (I think Hans Heinrich would have been okay with some years in prison - well, ashamed, but okay in terms of considering it just), was taken from him by this man, and not higher justice.
Your plan for the AU in which he and Hans Herrmann have a heart to heart later in life looks more plausible than ever.
Agreed on Hans Heinrich's likely psychology here. And because he doesn't agree with Hans Hermann's decision, and because he doesn't have the sense of pain and outrage at his loss to counterbalance his conviction that Hans Hermann was in the wrong, the heart-to-heart is a deathbed forgiveness secene and not a "Well done, son." But it's enough for Hans Hermann, who, due to Hans Heinrich not seeing him for 10 years and not wanting to commit certain things to mail, has been wondering just *how* angry his father was with him.
What helps reconcile Hans Heinrich and certain other family members is that while it was certainly disloyalty, no one believes it was cowardice, especially not once the full story of Katte's heroic role protecting Fritz during the escape gets out. And now he's got a royal pardon from AW, so it's all good, they can reconcile and part on good father-son terms.
Absolutely. And that's why I'm majorly sideeying those editors and historians who are complaining about her being a bad daughter, or hysterical, and that poor FW was the one to be pitied, with his wife and two oldest ganging up on him.
I'm not just side-eyeing, I'm FUMING. Those poor kids! The victim-blaming! SD was no angel, but she was definitely an abuse victim too!
It's also always important to remember that while many a contemporary thought FW was over the top with his reactions, both Fritz and Wilhelmine would still have gotten the message that it was his right to treat them this way both as monarch and as father from all sides.
Indeed.
Fritz: And as your current monarch and standing in loco parentis to my siblings and niblings, I would like to announce that I've taken this lesson to heart.
And while they hated him, they didn't, I fear, ever stop loving him as well and wanting his approval and a "Well done, you".
Yep. Totally typical for abusive families.
On a lighter note, Hervey in his memoirs has this passage of G2 ranting about how lousy sons are the worst, absolute scum, fathers are martyrs, and then he suddenly recalls his own dear old dad and adds, yes, okay, there are bad fathers and good sons as well.
LOL this is so great. Rationalization for the win!
Meanwhile, FW, only child of two parents who despite being very different from him both seem to have loved him and whose most most debatable action was a) to send him to live with his cousins for a while, and b) given him a strict Calvinist as a teacher when he was ten: Of course there are no bad fathers! Fathers should only be loved and listened to and adored! There are no exceptions!
THERAPY FOR EVERYONE
Nope. Would have blown quite a hole into his theory.
*g*
mostly this points to him struggling to reconcile the loyalty he feels he ows his sovereign with being a grieving father who thinks his son, while deserving some punishment (I think Hans Heinrich would have been okay with some years in prison - well, ashamed, but okay in terms of considering it just), was taken from him by this man, and not higher justice.
Your plan for the AU in which he and Hans Herrmann have a heart to heart later in life looks more plausible than ever.
Agreed on Hans Heinrich's likely psychology here. And because he doesn't agree with Hans Hermann's decision, and because he doesn't have the sense of pain and outrage at his loss to counterbalance his conviction that Hans Hermann was in the wrong, the heart-to-heart is a deathbed forgiveness secene and not a "Well done, son." But it's enough for Hans Hermann, who, due to Hans Heinrich not seeing him for 10 years and not wanting to commit certain things to mail, has been wondering just *how* angry his father was with him.
What helps reconcile Hans Heinrich and certain other family members is that while it was certainly disloyalty, no one believes it was cowardice, especially not once the full story of Katte's heroic role protecting Fritz during the escape gets out. And now he's got a royal pardon from AW, so it's all good, they can reconcile and part on good father-son terms.
Absolutely. And that's why I'm majorly sideeying those editors and historians who are complaining about her being a bad daughter, or hysterical, and that poor FW was the one to be pitied, with his wife and two oldest ganging up on him.
I'm not just side-eyeing, I'm FUMING. Those poor kids! The victim-blaming! SD was no angel, but she was definitely an abuse victim too!
It's also always important to remember that while many a contemporary thought FW was over the top with his reactions, both Fritz and Wilhelmine would still have gotten the message that it was his right to treat them this way both as monarch and as father from all sides.
Indeed.
Fritz: And as your current monarch and standing in loco parentis to my siblings and niblings, I would like to announce that I've taken this lesson to heart.
And while they hated him, they didn't, I fear, ever stop loving him as well and wanting his approval and a "Well done, you".
Yep. Totally typical for abusive families.
On a lighter note, Hervey in his memoirs has this passage of G2 ranting about how lousy sons are the worst, absolute scum, fathers are martyrs, and then he suddenly recalls his own dear old dad and adds, yes, okay, there are bad fathers and good sons as well.
LOL this is so great. Rationalization for the win!
Meanwhile, FW, only child of two parents who despite being very different from him both seem to have loved him and whose most most debatable action was a) to send him to live with his cousins for a while, and b) given him a strict Calvinist as a teacher when he was ten: Of course there are no bad fathers! Fathers should only be loved and listened to and adored! There are no exceptions!
THERAPY FOR EVERYONE
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective: Family Holidays
mildred_of_midgard
2020-10-04 06:52 pm (UTC)(link)
I wonder whether that means that whoever was her source and wrote it down for her - I imagine Wilhelmine didn't go herself to an army barrack - copied it badly, or whether she was just told it verbally and writes it out of her memory twenty years later?
Good question! I've just compared the two French texts, and my impression is that they're way too similar for me to think Wilhelmine is recording something she heard orally long ago. The two transcriptions look to me like the product of two different written copies of the text, where scribal errors and/or different interpretations of not totally legible handwriting crept in.
Good question! I've just compared the two French texts, and my impression is that they're way too similar for me to think Wilhelmine is recording something she heard orally long ago. The two transcriptions look to me like the product of two different written copies of the text, where scribal errors and/or different interpretations of not totally legible handwriting crept in.
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
mildred_of_midgard
2020-10-04 06:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Woot! Next year, we'll have Fritz, Voltaire, and envoys! :P
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective: Family Holidays
mildred_of_midgard
2020-10-04 07:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Was this just the random Küstrin servant that FW said should come shave him and for a brief period wasn't allowed to even sleep in the same room as Fritz, but had to visit daily?
Must be, since I don't think the valet he had before, the one who also shows up in the interrogation protocols, was with him in Küstrin at any point?
Gummersbach? Not that I know of, and more to the point, he was instrumental in preventing the escape, so I wonder if he would still be "most-loved" at that point. Maybe, but until we find out it was him, I stand by my headcanon that Fritz's sympathetic jailers found him a servant who would, I don't know, help smuggle letters to Wilhelmine out.
Also, if it's someone he met at Küstrin, then they only had 4 months to become "much-loved", but also, those are circumstances under which you would very quickly latch on to someone, so... :/
I'm so glad Fredersdorf came along later that year, and FW didn't catch on.
Must be, since I don't think the valet he had before, the one who also shows up in the interrogation protocols, was with him in Küstrin at any point?
Gummersbach? Not that I know of, and more to the point, he was instrumental in preventing the escape, so I wonder if he would still be "most-loved" at that point. Maybe, but until we find out it was him, I stand by my headcanon that Fritz's sympathetic jailers found him a servant who would, I don't know, help smuggle letters to Wilhelmine out.
Also, if it's someone he met at Küstrin, then they only had 4 months to become "much-loved", but also, those are circumstances under which you would very quickly latch on to someone, so... :/
I'm so glad Fredersdorf came along later that year, and FW didn't catch on.
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