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Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 17
...we're still going, now with added German reading group :P :D
:D I'm so glad Madame de Combalet got not only a good story, but a good relationship and a good life (especially after hearing about Emma :( and Leonora :( )
I didn't realize that forgiving one's enemies was one of the things one was asked in deathbed confessions until, uh, quite recent reading. :P That is fantastic.
Clearly I am going to have to put Three Musketeers on my list (which maybe someday I will actually make any headway on?? this year has been the Worst for processing any video) (and also reread the book, as I remember basically zero about it)
GO LEONORA.
I like your icon!
I didn't realize that forgiving one's enemies was one of the things one was asked in deathbed confessions until, uh, quite recent reading. :P That is fantastic.
Clearly I am going to have to put Three Musketeers on my list (which maybe someday I will actually make any headway on?? this year has been the Worst for processing any video) (and also reread the book, as I remember basically zero about it)
GO LEONORA.
I like your icon!
:( Yeah, Algarotti, stooooop!
It surviving the crisis to it which the initial triangle situation with Algarotti was (when Hervey did see Lady Mary as a rival and wasn't yet sure which way Algarotti would go) was a great relief to both biographers.
This makes me happy too :D Yay friendship, I say with Heinrich :D (As opposed to love triangles, for sure!)
See, in fiction I would have let him write two odes, just in case, one to Fritz and one to MT, and then by accident mail them to the respective wrong recipient.
MT: gets the one with praise for the lone eagle, complete with homoerotic banter
Fritz: gets the one with praise for the Juno of the Alps, the Mother of Europe surely in need of a tasteful art collector now that peace has been restored.
I WANT THIS NOW. LOL!
It surviving the crisis to it which the initial triangle situation with Algarotti was (when Hervey did see Lady Mary as a rival and wasn't yet sure which way Algarotti would go) was a great relief to both biographers.
This makes me happy too :D Yay friendship, I say with Heinrich :D (As opposed to love triangles, for sure!)
See, in fiction I would have let him write two odes, just in case, one to Fritz and one to MT, and then by accident mail them to the respective wrong recipient.
MT: gets the one with praise for the lone eagle, complete with homoerotic banter
Fritz: gets the one with praise for the Juno of the Alps, the Mother of Europe surely in need of a tasteful art collector now that peace has been restored.
I WANT THIS NOW. LOL!
Edited 2020-09-07 04:06 (UTC)
So I wonder if Lehndorff would be easier to read syntax-wise? I haven't gone back and looked; I'm basing this on the fact that I can (with translation) sometimes muddle through the letters in Ziebura, even Fritz's, and I have pretty much completely given up on being able to read Ziebura's prose, even with accompanying translation, until I know a lot more German :)
Also, just so you know, the interleaved AW has a weird issue where the first 40% is the same as the second 40%! I think the second time it goes on to the end, though.
Also, just so you know, the interleaved AW has a weird issue where the first 40% is the same as the second 40%! I think the second time it goes on to the end, though.
Edited 2020-09-07 04:18 (UTC)
Johnson merely records in his diary, "On Good Friday I took in the afternoon some coffee and buttered bun." Macaulay tells us, "He has gravely noted down that he once committed the sin of drinking coffee on Good Friday."
These were all hilarious, but this was the one that made me laugh out loud :D
Yes, one thing I've learned from salon and checking out various letters and memoirs is that it's rather hard to write memoirs or journals that are -- well, it's like when you were talking recently about that sort of interest and ability to write interestingly of everything that's going on around you, and other people, and not about yourself (or at least not just about yourself). It's one of those things that I think seems like it should be trivially easy to do, and yet it's pretty rare to actually be able to do it.
These were all hilarious, but this was the one that made me laugh out loud :D
Yes, one thing I've learned from salon and checking out various letters and memoirs is that it's rather hard to write memoirs or journals that are -- well, it's like when you were talking recently about that sort of interest and ability to write interestingly of everything that's going on around you, and other people, and not about yourself (or at least not just about yourself). It's one of those things that I think seems like it should be trivially easy to do, and yet it's pretty rare to actually be able to do it.
Wow, Louise actually bitter about someone (Mina). Totally understandable, of course, but considering all the *other* people she had every right to be bitter about, it comes as a surprise to see her actually doing it for once.
I thought this too!
* Google translate: I'm pretty sure Wilhelmine is saying "I don't see why there's so much to complain about re Mina," not, "I don't see why Mina has so much to complain about."
Ah, thank you! I was especially confused because I was pretty sure I had seen this elsewhere with the translation you give, but my German isn't good enough to make that out.
Wilhelmine: She's beautiful and well-behaved, and Heinrich gets his own household and freedom of movement, what more does he want?
Well...
Yeah, I imagine part of this is the gender dichotomy. I mean, to Wilhelmine that must sound pretty good! :(
WTF! This system is terrible!
Agreed!
I thought this too!
* Google translate: I'm pretty sure Wilhelmine is saying "I don't see why there's so much to complain about re Mina," not, "I don't see why Mina has so much to complain about."
Ah, thank you! I was especially confused because I was pretty sure I had seen this elsewhere with the translation you give, but my German isn't good enough to make that out.
Wilhelmine: She's beautiful and well-behaved, and Heinrich gets his own household and freedom of movement, what more does he want?
Well...
Yeah, I imagine part of this is the gender dichotomy. I mean, to Wilhelmine that must sound pretty good! :(
WTF! This system is terrible!
Agreed!
His geese are all swans, indeed. :)
I've been reading memoirs, diaries and letters since a few decades, and that's indeed one of the recurring red threads. Whether or not a memoir is interesting is not always related whether person writing it is fascinating. Observational skills and writing ability trump that any time. (My most startling example of this was when I read Marlene Dietrich's memoirs. Which were incredibly dull. Which Marlene Dietrich really really wasn't. Nor does she come across thusly in anyone else's book, whether contemporary to her or written after the fact. And good lord, did she lead an interesting life and met interesting people. But the memoirs? Eh.
I've been reading memoirs, diaries and letters since a few decades, and that's indeed one of the recurring red threads. Whether or not a memoir is interesting is not always related whether person writing it is fascinating. Observational skills and writing ability trump that any time. (My most startling example of this was when I read Marlene Dietrich's memoirs. Which were incredibly dull. Which Marlene Dietrich really really wasn't. Nor does she come across thusly in anyone else's book, whether contemporary to her or written after the fact. And good lord, did she lead an interesting life and met interesting people. But the memoirs? Eh.
Very likely - he opens his anti Richelieu suada with I see, my dear brother, that, at whatever cost, you want to raise our species. And very Fritzian, he closes it with: I only grant him the title of enlightened minister when he unites with the Swedes to demean Austrian despotism in Germany.
That's one way of describing Richelieu, PM of Catholic France and himself a Cardinal, making an alliance with Protestant Gustav Adolf of Sweden in the middle of the 30 Years War (supposedly a war of religion) against the Catholic HRE Emperor. On Richelieu's part, this was Realpolitik, and mostly about the France/Spain feud, since Spain at that time was still ruled by the Habsburgs (cousins to the Emperor). Fritz: projecting like mad. Also pointedly not mentioning whom the Swedes teamed up with in the most recent war...
That's one way of describing Richelieu, PM of Catholic France and himself a Cardinal, making an alliance with Protestant Gustav Adolf of Sweden in the middle of the 30 Years War (supposedly a war of religion) against the Catholic HRE Emperor. On Richelieu's part, this was Realpolitik, and mostly about the France/Spain feud, since Spain at that time was still ruled by the Habsburgs (cousins to the Emperor). Fritz: projecting like mad. Also pointedly not mentioning whom the Swedes teamed up with in the most recent war...
No, she didn't write to her directly, Ziebura is just repeating old Prussian propaganda. Like Catt as the best source on Fritz ever, it's one of those things refuted already in the late 19th century which nonetheless keep showing up. In my experience, this usually happens when the author doesn't bother to read an MT or Madame de Pompadour biography, because not a single one I've read fails to point out that this isn't true.
Google actually decided to try to figure out who "dieser" referred to
That's one ambitious algorithm. Though I agree, to me it reads as Guerton having done the recommending.
didn't Catt marry the sister of AW's secretary?
Not quite. He married the sister-in-law of AW's secretary (i.e. Hainchelin and Catt married sisters), who, btw, was also Hainchelin's cousin. Because family marriage is not just for royals!
Diderot is one of those Enlightenment figures who shows up in everyone's biographies; I've read one his essays, but definitely not what he's most famous for, the dictionary.
That's one ambitious algorithm. Though I agree, to me it reads as Guerton having done the recommending.
didn't Catt marry the sister of AW's secretary?
Not quite. He married the sister-in-law of AW's secretary (i.e. Hainchelin and Catt married sisters), who, btw, was also Hainchelin's cousin. Because family marriage is not just for royals!
Diderot is one of those Enlightenment figures who shows up in everyone's biographies; I've read one his essays, but definitely not what he's most famous for, the dictionary.
it's understandably hard to choose from the sheer number of major European rulers that Fritz has insulted which one(s) will end up going to war over it. :P
Indeed. I mean, other than MT, who is always a given at this point. But the choice among others is so rich!
Agreed on what Heinrich play-invading Saxony says about his instincts and likely behavior in a Fritz-free environment. Though he would argue he was just trying to convincingly impersonate Fritz on that occasion. :)
Re: the timing - don't forget this was also when Charles Hanbury Williams was, or every recently had been Ambassador, aka the one English envoy who loathed Fritz and vice versa.
Indeed. I mean, other than MT, who is always a given at this point. But the choice among others is so rich!
Agreed on what Heinrich play-invading Saxony says about his instincts and likely behavior in a Fritz-free environment. Though he would argue he was just trying to convincingly impersonate Fritz on that occasion. :)
Re: the timing - don't forget this was also when Charles Hanbury Williams was, or every recently had been Ambassador, aka the one English envoy who loathed Fritz and vice versa.
Louise: is another who could have been forgiven for slapping their spouse with cold fish every day, is what I'm saying.
Re: the details for masques and celebrations: I have to say my favourite is when Amalie gets to play the Grand Sultan while Heinrich plays the Sultan's favourite odalisque. Gender switching costumes for the win! (Meanwhile, Schmidt-Lötzen in his original introduction to Lehndorff's diaries, in the passage where he's saying he thought about censoring more to spare his readers' feelings in the interest of historical veracity and being fair to FW2, who previously was described as having had the first Prussian court where manly chastity was replaced by affairs galore and risqué entertainment, it had be pointed out that such stuff was par the course during the national hero Fritz era, too: Dear readers, if you want to know how the delicate feelings of a lady were offended at that time, check out what the Princess Amalie had to put up with when her brothers organized a fete.
...Schmidt-Lötzen, of all the things Amalie could and would complain about in her life, I really don't think these parties were included. I bet she enjoyed the drag stuff enormously, rather.
WTF! This system is terrible!
Yep, and why such a lot of Prussian nobility were constantly in debt.
Review in Spandau: you truly are the best detective. :)
BTW, it occurs to me that it could have easily been otherwise re: Fritz being in a great mood, because: 1753 is the year of Voltaire's departure. Though I dimly seem to recall that happened still in spring, April or May, so presumably Fritz had some time to cool down. Though hang on, when did the Frankfurt arrest happen, wasn't that in autumn as well? (Voltaire having spent the intermittent months at the Duchess of Saxe-Gotha's place, giving Madame Denis the time to organize her leaving France since they were supposed to meet up at Franfurt.
Re: the details for masques and celebrations: I have to say my favourite is when Amalie gets to play the Grand Sultan while Heinrich plays the Sultan's favourite odalisque. Gender switching costumes for the win! (Meanwhile, Schmidt-Lötzen in his original introduction to Lehndorff's diaries, in the passage where he's saying he thought about censoring more to spare his readers' feelings in the interest of historical veracity and being fair to FW2, who previously was described as having had the first Prussian court where manly chastity was replaced by affairs galore and risqué entertainment, it had be pointed out that such stuff was par the course during the national hero Fritz era, too: Dear readers, if you want to know how the delicate feelings of a lady were offended at that time, check out what the Princess Amalie had to put up with when her brothers organized a fete.
...Schmidt-Lötzen, of all the things Amalie could and would complain about in her life, I really don't think these parties were included. I bet she enjoyed the drag stuff enormously, rather.
WTF! This system is terrible!
Yep, and why such a lot of Prussian nobility were constantly in debt.
Review in Spandau: you truly are the best detective. :)
BTW, it occurs to me that it could have easily been otherwise re: Fritz being in a great mood, because: 1753 is the year of Voltaire's departure. Though I dimly seem to recall that happened still in spring, April or May, so presumably Fritz had some time to cool down. Though hang on, when did the Frankfurt arrest happen, wasn't that in autumn as well? (Voltaire having spent the intermittent months at the Duchess of Saxe-Gotha's place, giving Madame Denis the time to organize her leaving France since they were supposed to meet up at Franfurt.
Have you read The Bronte Myth?
By Lucasta Miller? Yes, I did, and agree it's very interesting. And occasionally darkly hilarious, like the descriptions of the early Hollywood movie where Charlotte ends up in a love triangle with Emily and the Reverend Arthur Nichols...
Especially since the relationship with Algarotti wasn't worth losing an important friendship over for either of them, not even Hervey, who "won".
Indeed. They were among each other's favourite people and loyal through a great number of ordeals (among other things, being attacked by the foremost English poet of their age, Alexander Pope, who first praised Lady Mary to the skies and then turned against her - whether or not it was because he finally did dare a pass and she laughed at him is debated - with a vengeance), and it would have been a shame to lose this over the most fickle of swans. Something remarkable: Lady Mary got attacked not just by Pope but later Horace Walpole wiht every accusation misogyny can inspire, including, of course, sexual licence. And yet neither of them when accusing her of having lovers, including younger lovers, names Algarotti. Her unrequited love for him and Algarotti ending up with Hervey (for a while) would have been a gift to satirists hating both her and Hervey. And Algarotti was such a prominent figure at that point: the story would have been eaten up with relish by a wide audience, especially since it ended up with Lady Mary humiliated. And yet - neither Pope, who accuses Lady Mary of "poxing her lovers" (which is a nasty pun on her inoculation work against small pox, mixing it with the accusation of inflicting STD) nor Walpole, who when she returned near the end of her life to die in England said she shold be quaranteened because she was sure to be so dirty, ever caught wind of the Algarotti situation. Which must mean that both Hervey (who usually loved to gossip) and Algarotti kept absolutely mum.
By Lucasta Miller? Yes, I did, and agree it's very interesting. And occasionally darkly hilarious, like the descriptions of the early Hollywood movie where Charlotte ends up in a love triangle with Emily and the Reverend Arthur Nichols...
Especially since the relationship with Algarotti wasn't worth losing an important friendship over for either of them, not even Hervey, who "won".
Indeed. They were among each other's favourite people and loyal through a great number of ordeals (among other things, being attacked by the foremost English poet of their age, Alexander Pope, who first praised Lady Mary to the skies and then turned against her - whether or not it was because he finally did dare a pass and she laughed at him is debated - with a vengeance), and it would have been a shame to lose this over the most fickle of swans. Something remarkable: Lady Mary got attacked not just by Pope but later Horace Walpole wiht every accusation misogyny can inspire, including, of course, sexual licence. And yet neither of them when accusing her of having lovers, including younger lovers, names Algarotti. Her unrequited love for him and Algarotti ending up with Hervey (for a while) would have been a gift to satirists hating both her and Hervey. And Algarotti was such a prominent figure at that point: the story would have been eaten up with relish by a wide audience, especially since it ended up with Lady Mary humiliated. And yet - neither Pope, who accuses Lady Mary of "poxing her lovers" (which is a nasty pun on her inoculation work against small pox, mixing it with the accusation of inflicting STD) nor Walpole, who when she returned near the end of her life to die in England said she shold be quaranteened because she was sure to be so dirty, ever caught wind of the Algarotti situation. Which must mean that both Hervey (who usually loved to gossip) and Algarotti kept absolutely mum.
Ha. I didn't think of counterchecking the dissertation, only Bisset's edition of the papers, where Algarotti is Sir Non-Appearing.
What I didn't know is that "you will certainly be the tastiest dish for me (le meilleur plat pour moi]" and "I hope to embrace you in 4 or 5 days." Man, Algarotti gets around!
No kidding. BTW, the Hervey biographer also quotes the Fritz letter with les p_s and like yours truly concludes these are putains, but he thinks Fritz may have been using a euphemism:
...advantage of your wit since the p [utains ) cannot profit by your
body. ' ( The allusion to p [ rostitutes ] was probably a euphemism ; a month later Voltaire described in vivid detail the sexual activity between the French ambassador's young male secretary and Algarotti, who is depicted as a Venetian Socrates with large eyes
and aquiline nose.)*
* But when
I see the tender Algarotti
Crush with passionate embrace
The handsome Lugeac , his young friend ,
I imagine I see Socrates fastened
Onto the rump of Alcibiades.
Note this down as further proof of Voltaire and Fritz being as bad as each other. I'm sure Lugeac was no more amused than Darget. (1) Voltaire, btw, had befriended Hervey during his time in England, and earlier in the Hervey bio, we get a direct quote from one of Voltaire's English-written letters to Hervey followed by a Halsband editorial comment that's very... well, I'll let you judge:
(Voltaire writes:) 'Adieu charming lord remember a frenchman who is devoted to your lordship for ever with the utmost respect,and loves you passionately .' (The extravagance
of his language comes from his relative unfamiliarity with English .)
Whatever happened to "in the 18th century everyone was emo, Halsband? you really want us to believe Brits were excepted?
And yes, I do wonder if Bisset edited out some embracing and tasty dishes. :P I mean, if Fritz and d'Argens are happy to gossip about Émilie's sex life, Fritz and Mitchell chatting about their mutual friendly ex would definitely be a thing.
Right? And now we can claim Mitchell as another at the very least bisexual of the era. Bisset, of course, claimed that he never remarried because he didn't get over his dead wife (and dead baby who died with her), and at the time I had no reason to doubt it. Given the new info that he was Algarotti's tasty dish afterwards I suspect he didn't remarry because there was no family pressure on him to do so and he just plain did not want to, enjoying the single life style. It also explains why Lehndorff never mentions a mistress of Mitchell's, whereas he does that for other envoys he socialized with.
Mind you, Mitchell would have had to decide whether mentioning Algarotti could be more harmful or helpful for his envoy job; after all, for all he knew, Fritz could have been bitter about Algarotti leaving. So Fritz would have had to bring him up first.
...and I feel even more entitled of having included your Algarotti/Heinrich speculation in My Brother Narcissus. Clearly, Algarotti absolutely would have if he could have.
(1) Except if this poem is from a private letter rather than from a publication? Halsband and Grundy don't say.
What I didn't know is that "you will certainly be the tastiest dish for me (le meilleur plat pour moi]" and "I hope to embrace you in 4 or 5 days." Man, Algarotti gets around!
No kidding. BTW, the Hervey biographer also quotes the Fritz letter with les p_s and like yours truly concludes these are putains, but he thinks Fritz may have been using a euphemism:
...advantage of your wit since the p [utains ) cannot profit by your
body. ' ( The allusion to p [ rostitutes ] was probably a euphemism ; a month later Voltaire described in vivid detail the sexual activity between the French ambassador's young male secretary and Algarotti, who is depicted as a Venetian Socrates with large eyes
and aquiline nose.)*
* But when
I see the tender Algarotti
Crush with passionate embrace
The handsome Lugeac , his young friend ,
I imagine I see Socrates fastened
Onto the rump of Alcibiades.
Note this down as further proof of Voltaire and Fritz being as bad as each other. I'm sure Lugeac was no more amused than Darget. (1) Voltaire, btw, had befriended Hervey during his time in England, and earlier in the Hervey bio, we get a direct quote from one of Voltaire's English-written letters to Hervey followed by a Halsband editorial comment that's very... well, I'll let you judge:
(Voltaire writes:) 'Adieu charming lord remember a frenchman who is devoted to your lordship for ever with the utmost respect,and loves you passionately .' (The extravagance
of his language comes from his relative unfamiliarity with English .)
Whatever happened to "in the 18th century everyone was emo, Halsband? you really want us to believe Brits were excepted?
And yes, I do wonder if Bisset edited out some embracing and tasty dishes. :P I mean, if Fritz and d'Argens are happy to gossip about Émilie's sex life, Fritz and Mitchell chatting about their mutual friendly ex would definitely be a thing.
Right? And now we can claim Mitchell as another at the very least bisexual of the era. Bisset, of course, claimed that he never remarried because he didn't get over his dead wife (and dead baby who died with her), and at the time I had no reason to doubt it. Given the new info that he was Algarotti's tasty dish afterwards I suspect he didn't remarry because there was no family pressure on him to do so and he just plain did not want to, enjoying the single life style. It also explains why Lehndorff never mentions a mistress of Mitchell's, whereas he does that for other envoys he socialized with.
Mind you, Mitchell would have had to decide whether mentioning Algarotti could be more harmful or helpful for his envoy job; after all, for all he knew, Fritz could have been bitter about Algarotti leaving. So Fritz would have had to bring him up first.
...and I feel even more entitled of having included your Algarotti/Heinrich speculation in My Brother Narcissus. Clearly, Algarotti absolutely would have if he could have.
(1) Except if this poem is from a private letter rather than from a publication? Halsband and Grundy don't say.
Edited 2020-09-07 08:44 (UTC)
Wow. I didn't *think* she had, I just expected better from Ziebura's scholarship! Tsk.
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