![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Entry tags:
Frederick the Great, discussion post 16
We have slowed down a lot, but are still (sporadically) going! And somehow filled up the last post while I wasn't looking!
...I was asked to start a new thread so that STDs could be discussed. Really! :D
...I was asked to start a new thread so that STDs could be discussed. Really! :D
Re: Some FW Speculation
*nod* The lack of pregnancies could be due to reduced fertility, but the not getting any, if we're correct, does suggest that she said no and he respected that, at least eventually. Because even if she was fully menopausal, Old Testament God let Sarah have a late-in-life pregnancy, so even if FW didn't believe in non-reproductive sex, he could have rationalized sex with a post-menopausal woman if he wanted to force the issue.
The last kid being born just 2.5 months before the big escape attempt did make me suspicious once you pointed it out.
Hmm. Looking at the birth years of their kids:
1707/08?
1709
1710
1711
1712
1714
1716
1717/18?
1719
1720
1722
1726
1730
Either fertility or marital relations or both broke down in the 1720s. I mean, there's the obvious first few years of trying desperately for a male heir who doesn't immediately die, but even after the 5 kids in 5 years, there's 6 more kids in 10 years, and then...2 kids in 8 years. It doesn't escape me that 1726-1730 is the height of the double marriage war. (Hmm. What was going on in August 1729?)
she was behaving as a good Christian wife (tm) should, but then FW in other matters was entirely capable of overriding his own standards (ask whipped for nothing Doris Ritter), especially when angry.
On the one hand, we could point out that Doris, though sexually innocent (per Dickens), was consorting with wretched son (tm) and accepting gifts (Fritz spending money! the horror!) during the time leading up to the escape, so I think that's much easier for FW to justify as misbehavior even if she's a virgin. Duhan got locked up for helping obtain the secret library, even though, as far as I know, he was innocent of involvement in the escape.
On the other hand, as you've repeatedly pointed out, the number of men who would accept Pannewitz's refusal like that is low enough that it does call for *some* explanation that FW would.
So I'm wondering whether the fact that in both cases, he accepted the women's right to say no to sex wasn't due to some inner buried standard from his youth.
And that's entirely plausible!
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying FW should be congratulated for NOT doing awful things when he did do so many other awful things. I'm just curious about the factors that might have caused him drawing the line there.
Understood, and I share the curiosity and desire to seek an explanation.
Even when he's ranting at Fritz during the August 1731 submission and painting a "what if" scenario
Which, btw, is very helpful for my fix-it fic where Fritz does escape. Thanks, FW! (I guess.)
Now both daughter and wife are in his complete social power... but I think the difference is that daughters aren't covered by childhood impressions. Wives and mothers are. Maybe that's the difference?
Could be! It seems very plausible to me. And as someone (Hinrichs?) pointed out, FW may have hated everything his father stood for, but he still stubbornly did the dutiful son thing right up through the lavish funeral, at which point the "your new master bids you go to hell" began.
So dutiful son obeys father's wishes, dutiful husband doesn't lock up wife, dutiful father expects 100% perfect obedience from children all the time, and does whatever is necessary to break their wills. Including if the pastors say forcing one's daughter into marriage is a no go.
Re: Some FW Speculation
Wasn‘t that when the English marriages almost happened (since the Brits were willing to take Wihelmine without a dowry) except Charles Hotham the older then overdid it by going „oh, and btw, your pal Grumbkow is an absolute corrupt bastard who has to be removed, and here‘s the proof!“ ? Perhaps Ferdinand was conceived in the short period when SD could truly believe that at last her dream for her two oldest children would come true, and felt generous?
The gap between Amalie and Heinrich is noticable compared with earlier gaps. Now, according to Wilhelmine Amalie herself was an accident and SD didn‘t want to believe she was pregnant (as opposed to already having the change) until shortly before the birth, hence unexpected midwife FW. Which I suppose could be invented, but I don‘t see what would be the point, and Wilhelmine was certainly old enough to notice.
Of course, we shouldn‘t lose sight of the fact that the 1720s were also when FW‘s health started to break down and he began spending time in the wheelchair. As I seem to recall, Amalie‘s birth year, 1722, is where his Last Will (the one with „no whores, no theatre, no wars of agression!“ in the beginning) is from. So FW‘s health in addition to everything else could be another reason why the rate at which they produce offspring goes down.
Wondering about the summer of 1725 (i.e. when Heinrich was conceived) - SD tries really hard to get FW on board the English marriage project? It might also have been when she was afraid he‘d divorce her, but I‘m not sure about the year.
Re: Some FW Speculation
Re: Some FW Speculation
That's what I thought, but no, that was only in 1730.
Dug into it a bit more, and apparently what was happening in 1729 was the resumption of the marriage negotiations, and in the summer there was a minor conflict between Hanover and Prussia that escalated. As usual, it took the form of Prussians kidnapping Hanoverians for the army, the Hanoverians retaliating against the recruiters, and FW completely overreacting. (Remember, this exact sequence of events had happened two years before, with Saxony, which was when he was ready to hang Suhm.) So in late August, FW got to the point of mobilizing 44,000 soldiers (source: Koser) in late August and declaring himself ready to invade. Right when Ferdinand was conceived.
Make of that what you will.
The gap between Amalie and Heinrich is noticable compared with earlier gaps.
It is apparently only a 3-year gap, due to my copy-paste error (1722 is AW), but it's still the first 3-year gap, and it was followed by a 4-year gap.
Of course, we shouldn‘t lose sight of the fact that the 1720s were also when FW‘s health started to break down
That is an excellent point, and probably accounts for a lot of what we're seeing.
1725: Not sure.
1722, is where his Last Will (the one with „no whores, no theatre, no wars of agression!“ in the beginning
1732 FW: Good job impregnating Frau von Wreech! Bodes well for your marriage.
1736 FW: There stands one who will avenge me! (Does it count as a defensive war if the Austrians have repeatedly screwed you over re Juliers and Berg?)