Going back to your entry on the non-homo'ing with my Zimmermann addendum, it was indeed Heinrich von Schwedt - i.e. the very one Fritz in 1733 mentions visiting (and being rowdy) in his letter to Grumbkow - who according to Zimmermann reccommended Malchow the Quack for the STD to Fritz.
Zieten-Showalter: remind me again, from which book is this? You mentioning the wiki entry reminded me that said entry links the "life of Zieten" book by his niece Johanna von Blumenthal (based on the stories he told her), which is in the public domain, which I just looked up to get Zieten's take on Kolin, and yup, it's squarely in the "I warned Fritz, but he would not listen, and even said "I'm sorry Nadasty bamboozled you" ("einen blauen Dunst vormachen") regarding the numbers of the army Daun had with him corner. Now Zieten is that rarity, a fatherly figure appreciated and liked by Fritz (despite their ups and downs) and appreciated and liked by Heinrich (who financed a statue for him at the Wilhelmsplatz in Berlin and put him on the the Rheinsberg Obelisk), as well as a popular figure of legend and loved by historians alike. He's Fontane's firm fave; Fontane wrote a ballad about him, the last verse of which became proverbial in German for decades, and in the Rheinsberg Obelisk chapter, he likes the inscription for Zieten so much that he quotes it twice, once in German and once in French, as the best and warmest ("der alte Husar ist auch hier Sieger geblieben").
...all of which makes me curious as to why two centuries of historians wrote of Zieten's loathing of Winterfeldt as purely caused by personal rivalry. (I mean, any criticism of Winterfeldt by anyone is dismissed as biased until the later part of the 20th century. (Zieten hates him, it's jealousy because they got promoted at the same time despite Zieten's greater age and years of Service. AW, Heinrich and Ferdinand hate him before AW's death, they're jealous because he's close to Fritz and they are not. Heinrich REALLY hates him after AW's death, he's grief impaired and also spiteful. Henckel and Kalckreuth loathe him in their notes and memoir respectively? They're Heinrich influenced. (Lehndorff also, I suppose, but no one quotes Lehndorff on this, who heard nothing good about Winterfeldt's role in Berlin even before AW returned and less good after, since it's second hand, unlike Zieten's, the divine trio's and Henckel's & Kalckreuth's takes, which are based on personal Observation.)
Now I can buy all that, separately - like we said elsewhere, anyone favoured by the central figure of authority is bound to be envied and resented by many - plus Winterfeldt makes for a good lightning rod if you can't blame the King directly. But the thing is, Heinrich & Co. had no problem blaming the King directly where they thought it was due, and Zieten going by his niece's tale did not, either. And while it's annoying to share promotions with some younger guy, that alone hardly warrants continuing intense dislike years into retirement, when Winterfeldt is dead and Zieten is a legendary old war hero favored by Fritz, especially since Zieten otherwise is praised for his fairness and generosity.
...which is why I doubt Winterfeldt was the persecuted innocence older historians and English wiki present him as. (I also don't think he was the scum of the earth Heinrich ended up seeing him as; my current take is "ruthless career official 100% loyal to the King but to no one else", which is the difference to generals like Zieten or Seydlitz whose stellar careers in the Silesian and 7 Years War went along with them being popular and respected among other officers instead of being resented and disliked.
it was indeed Heinrich von Schwedt - i.e. the very one Fritz in 1733 mentions visiting (and being rowdy) in his letter to Grumbkow - who according to Zimmermann reccommended Malchow the Quack for the STD to Fritz.
The rowdy guy is totally the logical one to go to for advice on your STD.
I still love how Zimmermann has no problem with his hero having an STD. Beats being gay!
Zieten-Showalter: remind me again, from which book is this?
Sorry, I hadn't mentioned it yet. I've only just started it. Dennis Showalter, Frederick the Great: A Military History. I've been promising myself for months that as soon as my concentration started to come back, I'd revisit Fritzian military history. I don't trust Showalter more than any other biographer, but this book was the cheapest one on Kindle that I hadn't already read, hence top of my list.
my current take is "ruthless career official 100% loyal to the King but to no one else"
That makes a whoooole lot of sense, and I totally buy it. I love your take on Winterfeldt!
I still love how Zimmermann has no problem with his hero having an STD. Beats being gay!
And he doesn't seem to consider you can get STD the gay way just as easily. Even 18th century medicine presumably had that one figured out.
This being said, if Fritz had STD in 1733, his options for advice how to treat it were:
Pöllnitz: would know, but would so tell Dad.
Grumbkow: would know, but even if he considers it more useful not to tell Dad will use that Knowledge as leverage on you in the future.
Fredersdorf: Might not know, depending on his sexual history which we know zilch about, and state of general Knowledge in his regiment.
Suhm: is he still in Prussia? Anyway, might be embarassing to ask someone you have a slight crush on. Also, if Dad finds out he helped you, he might strangle him for real this time.
Schwedt Cousin(s): are Princes of the blood but not brothers, thus can't be strangled by Dad, and you don't care what they think of you anyway. And they definitely had had the clap already by this Point.
And he doesn't seem to consider you can get STD the gay way just as easily. Even 18th century medicine presumably had that one figured out.
True, but he's not exactly asserting that Fritz had an STD, therefore he wasn't gay. He's a priori asserting that he was het, and making up elaborate stories to eliminate all the counterevidence, which happen to include an STD.
This being said, if Fritz had STD in 1733, his options for advice how to treat it
Oh, lol, now I'm imagining. Yeah, that would suck. Don't tell Pöllnitz, dear lord! But was he even in Prussia in 1733? That was around the time of his travels. Yeah, Wikipedia seems to have him not returning to Berlin until 1735. So it would have to be by letter.
Suhm is still in Berlin, yes, and being from Dresden would presumably know a thing or two regardless of his own personal history, but since Fritz is at Ruppin, I think they only see each other during the winter holidays. Their Trier correspondence only starts in 1736, but they may have been writing to each other before that. Agree this would be awkward and risky, and Fritz would either have to wait until December or commit his secret to writing, where his mail could be read.
Fredersdorf: will find out discreetly and totally let people think he's asking on his own behalf if necessary!
Upon reflection, I vote Fredersdorf of your list. I'm not sure I trust the Schwedts not to talk.
Fredersdorf: will find out discreetly and totally let people think he's asking on his own behalf if necessary!
Hahahaha, again I have the same thought as you, mildred: when selenak talked about Fredersdorf, I was like, yeah, he might well not know, but he'd find out, and be discreet about it. He'd totally be all "I'm just asking... you know, for a 'friend'!" and let people draw their own conclusions ;)
Going back to your entry on the non-homo'ing with my Zimmermann addendum
Also, thank you for linking to this, since in reviewing it, I noticed an outstanding mystery that we had since solved: the role of Wilhelmine's jewelry in the 1730 escape attempt. I've updated the post accordingly.
Oh, this is funny timing. Remember the author of the "Catt as Bambi" fic on AO3? S/he seems to have posted a "Winterfeldt as Bambi" fic just 4 days ago, judging by the summary and tags. I haven't read it yet; was helping mob boss AU author come up with a tag for Wilhelmine's daughter* just now, and that's when I saw, under the Wilhelmine tag, this.
May 2020: the month of Winterfeldt!
* We came up with "Sophie von Brandenburg-Bayreuth | Sophie of Brandenburg-Bayreuth (1732-1780)". She now has a (modern AU) fic, and my beta ship Katte/Keith now has 2 (modern AU) fics while we wait on my historical one. ;)
re: the Winterfeldt fic, I saw, and yes, Winterfeldt is Bambi, but he's also not a lot in the story which is mainly Wilhelmine and AW interaction, which I'm all for - finally someone writes siblings other than me! -, and I liked it with a few caveats, which unfortunately include the premise. Since I guess the author would feel a comment including these would be me being a nitpicking jerk - it's something you can say to someone you know won't take it badly, but not otherwise - I'll tell you here:
1) No one called AW August. It was Wilhelm/Guillaume, Guille or Hula.
2) Wilhelmine thinking "but should I use this innocent child to help us out in this situation?" is right for her except for the fact that Mom already used this innocent child way earlier (i.e. when he was still a toddler) in a dicy situation with Dad, and Wilhelmine would have known that.
3) I could be wrong about this, but I think Winterfeldt didn't get to know Crown Prince Fritz until the mid 1730s, at which point scenes like the opening one didn't happen anymore, and it's no longer quite such a miracle that someone managed to get along with both FW and Crown Prince Fritz. Mind you, Grumbkow is credited with doing the pioneer work here in all the bios I've read (though again - I could be wrong), and Fritz didn't actually trust Grumbkow one bit, he just went along with mutually using each other and celebrated when the guy was dead, so Winterfeldt still gets to be special as Fritz undoubtedly truly liked and trusted him. Which brings me to
4) Me being me, I can't help but being constantly aware that the heartwarming climactic scene of innocent little AW, prompted by Wilhelmine, returning the incriminating hankerchief to Winterfeldt in front of FW who uses the opportunity to shame Fritz some more, and bambi Winterfeldt is full of love and sympathy for his abused crown prince gets a remix 27 years later starring Fritz in the role of abusive king, AW as the publicly abused crown prince, and Winterfeldt as the eager instrument of the public abuse. Now I can see why an author who likes both her Fritz and her Winterfeldt on the light side would avoid any foreshadowig of this, but to me at least a hint would actually have made an already moving story twistily great.
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rheinsberg
Re: The other one
Zieten-Showalter: remind me again, from which book is this? You mentioning the wiki entry reminded me that said entry links the "life of Zieten" book by his niece Johanna von Blumenthal (based on the stories he told her), which is in the public domain, which I just looked up to get Zieten's take on Kolin, and yup, it's squarely in the "I warned Fritz, but he would not listen, and even said "I'm sorry Nadasty bamboozled you" ("einen blauen Dunst vormachen") regarding the numbers of the army Daun had with him corner. Now Zieten is that rarity, a fatherly figure appreciated and liked by Fritz (despite their ups and downs) and appreciated and liked by Heinrich (who financed a statue for him at the Wilhelmsplatz in Berlin and put him on the the Rheinsberg Obelisk), as well as a popular figure of legend and loved by historians alike. He's Fontane's firm fave; Fontane wrote a ballad about him, the last verse of which became proverbial in German for decades, and in the Rheinsberg Obelisk chapter, he likes the inscription for Zieten so much that he quotes it twice, once in German and once in French, as the best and warmest ("der alte Husar ist auch hier Sieger geblieben").
...all of which makes me curious as to why two centuries of historians wrote of Zieten's loathing of Winterfeldt as purely caused by personal rivalry. (I mean, any criticism of Winterfeldt by anyone is dismissed as biased until the later part of the 20th century. (Zieten hates him, it's jealousy because they got promoted at the same time despite Zieten's greater age and years of Service. AW, Heinrich and Ferdinand hate him before AW's death, they're jealous because he's close to Fritz and they are not. Heinrich REALLY hates him after AW's death, he's grief impaired and also spiteful. Henckel and Kalckreuth loathe him in their notes and memoir respectively? They're Heinrich influenced. (Lehndorff also, I suppose, but no one quotes Lehndorff on this, who heard nothing good about Winterfeldt's role in Berlin even before AW returned and less good after, since it's second hand, unlike Zieten's, the divine trio's and Henckel's & Kalckreuth's takes, which are based on personal Observation.)
Now I can buy all that, separately - like we said elsewhere, anyone favoured by the central figure of authority is bound to be envied and resented by many - plus Winterfeldt makes for a good lightning rod if you can't blame the King directly. But the thing is, Heinrich & Co. had no problem blaming the King directly where they thought it was due, and Zieten going by his niece's tale did not, either. And while it's annoying to share promotions with some younger guy, that alone hardly warrants continuing intense dislike years into retirement, when Winterfeldt is dead and Zieten is a legendary old war hero favored by Fritz, especially since Zieten otherwise is praised for his fairness and generosity.
...which is why I doubt Winterfeldt was the persecuted innocence older historians and English wiki present him as. (I also don't think he was the scum of the earth Heinrich ended up seeing him as; my current take is "ruthless career official 100% loyal to the King but to no one else", which is the difference to generals like Zieten or Seydlitz whose stellar careers in the Silesian and 7 Years War went along with them being popular and respected among other officers instead of being resented and disliked.
Re: The other one
The rowdy guy is totally the logical one to go to for advice on your STD.
I still love how Zimmermann has no problem with his hero having an STD. Beats being gay!
Zieten-Showalter: remind me again, from which book is this?
Sorry, I hadn't mentioned it yet. I've only just started it. Dennis Showalter, Frederick the Great: A Military History. I've been promising myself for months that as soon as my concentration started to come back, I'd revisit Fritzian military history. I don't trust Showalter more than any other biographer, but this book was the cheapest one on Kindle that I hadn't already read, hence top of my list.
my current take is "ruthless career official 100% loyal to the King but to no one else"
That makes a whoooole lot of sense, and I totally buy it. I love your take on Winterfeldt!
Re: The other one
And he doesn't seem to consider you can get STD the gay way just as easily. Even 18th century medicine presumably had that one figured out.
This being said, if Fritz had STD in 1733, his options for advice how to treat it were:
Pöllnitz: would know, but would so tell Dad.
Grumbkow: would know, but even if he considers it more useful not to tell Dad will use that Knowledge as leverage on you in the future.
Fredersdorf: Might not know, depending on his sexual history which we know zilch about, and state of general Knowledge in his regiment.
Suhm: is he still in Prussia? Anyway, might be embarassing to ask someone you have a slight crush on. Also, if Dad finds out he helped you, he might strangle him for real this time.
Schwedt Cousin(s): are Princes of the blood but not brothers, thus can't be strangled by Dad, and you don't care what they think of you anyway. And they definitely had had the clap already by this Point.
Re: The other one
True, but he's not exactly asserting that Fritz had an STD, therefore he wasn't gay. He's a priori asserting that he was het, and making up elaborate stories to eliminate all the counterevidence, which happen to include an STD.
This being said, if Fritz had STD in 1733, his options for advice how to treat it
Oh, lol, now I'm imagining. Yeah, that would suck. Don't tell Pöllnitz, dear lord! But was he even in Prussia in 1733? That was around the time of his travels. Yeah, Wikipedia seems to have him not returning to Berlin until 1735. So it would have to be by letter.
Suhm is still in Berlin, yes, and being from Dresden would presumably know a thing or two regardless of his own personal history, but since Fritz is at Ruppin, I think they only see each other during the winter holidays. Their Trier correspondence only starts in 1736, but they may have been writing to each other before that. Agree this would be awkward and risky, and Fritz would either have to wait until December or commit his secret to writing, where his mail could be read.
Fredersdorf: will find out discreetly and totally let people think he's asking on his own behalf if necessary!
Upon reflection, I vote Fredersdorf of your list. I'm not sure I trust the Schwedts not to talk.
Re: The other one
Re: The other one
Hahahaha, again I have the same thought as you, mildred: when selenak talked about Fredersdorf, I was like, yeah, he might well not know, but he'd find out, and be discreet about it. He'd totally be all "I'm just asking... you know, for a 'friend'!" and let people draw their own conclusions ;)
Re: The other one
<3 loyal Fredersdorf.
Re: The other one
Also, thank you for linking to this, since in reviewing it, I noticed an outstanding mystery that we had since solved: the role of Wilhelmine's jewelry in the 1730 escape attempt. I've updated the post accordingly.
Re: The other one
Winterfeldt
May 2020: the month of Winterfeldt!
* We came up with "Sophie von Brandenburg-Bayreuth | Sophie of Brandenburg-Bayreuth (1732-1780)". She now has a (modern AU) fic, and my beta ship Katte/Keith now has 2 (modern AU) fics while we wait on my historical one. ;)
Re: Winterfeldt
re: the Winterfeldt fic, I saw, and yes, Winterfeldt is Bambi, but he's also not a lot in the story which is mainly Wilhelmine and AW interaction, which I'm all for - finally someone writes siblings other than me! -, and I liked it with a few caveats, which unfortunately include the premise. Since I guess the author would feel a comment including these would be me being a nitpicking jerk - it's something you can say to someone you know won't take it badly, but not otherwise - I'll tell you here:
1) No one called AW August. It was Wilhelm/Guillaume, Guille or Hula.
2) Wilhelmine thinking "but should I use this innocent child to help us out in this situation?" is right for her except for the fact that Mom already used this innocent child way earlier (i.e. when he was still a toddler) in a dicy situation with Dad, and Wilhelmine would have known that.
3) I could be wrong about this, but I think Winterfeldt didn't get to know Crown Prince Fritz until the mid 1730s, at which point scenes like the opening one didn't happen anymore, and it's no longer quite such a miracle that someone managed to get along with both FW and Crown Prince Fritz. Mind you, Grumbkow is credited with doing the pioneer work here in all the bios I've read (though again - I could be wrong), and Fritz didn't actually trust Grumbkow one bit, he just went along with mutually using each other and celebrated when the guy was dead, so Winterfeldt still gets to be special as Fritz undoubtedly truly liked and trusted him. Which brings me to
4) Me being me, I can't help but being constantly aware that the heartwarming climactic scene of innocent little AW, prompted by Wilhelmine, returning the incriminating hankerchief to Winterfeldt in front of FW who uses the opportunity to shame Fritz some more, and bambi Winterfeldt is full of love and sympathy for his abused crown prince gets a remix 27 years later starring Fritz in the role of abusive king, AW as the publicly abused crown prince, and Winterfeldt as the eager instrument of the public abuse. Now I can see why an author who likes both her Fritz and her Winterfeldt on the light side would avoid any foreshadowig of this, but to me at least a hint would actually have made an already moving story twistily great.