cahn: (Default)
cahn ([personal profile] cahn) wrote2020-05-03 09:12 am
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Frederick the Great discussion post 15

...I have nothing clever to say here, just really pleased this is still going :)
[community profile] rheinsberg
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Heinrich readthrough!

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-05-14 06:15 pm (UTC)(link)
that‘s because I read the Three Wives Bio

Aaahhh. I can see I'm going to have to improve my German so I can read more!

There‘s an online article from a gay magazine on Heinrich which makes the most of that name, too.

Oh, awesome. Go German gay magazine!

(And while AW isn‘t literally buried in Rheinsberg he certainly was for Heinrich in spirit, with the two memorials, so the role of Remus is shared even more.)

...wow. Fritz as Romulus and AW as Remus is not something that had occurred to me, despite knowing the legend. *grimace*

Mitchell: Dear Foreign Office, the Prussian offcials were strangely intimidated at the thought.

So strange! Anyone can see you're not intimidated at aaall, Mitchell. (If only Gustav were in a position to make himself useful!)

I do, because I‘ve written one fo the MT & Fritz AUs about it:)

Hee! I was thinking of your AU when I wrote that. :)

As to Heinrich‘s love life in general: you know, one of the amazing things is that given the constant upset from Fritz you‘d think he‘d have gone for some tranquility there as an emotional balance, but noooo

Zomg, I just got to the next Kaphengst installment, and wow. Ziebura thinks maybe he was blackmailing Heinrich?! I mean, I can see why, with all the hush-hush selling off of his belongings to pay K's expenses. OTH, Heinrich did eventually break up with him, and this is only a difference in degree, not kind, from Heinrich's other relationships, so...maybe Kaphengst just knew how to push his buttons so as to exploit him most effectively.

Also, the Heinrich bio doesn't seem to have this part:

Fritz: Dump Kaphengst. He's no good, trust me. Also, it's not up to debate. I'm making it a royal order for you to dismiss him and to move him out of Rheinsberg. Along with 10 000 Friedrichsdor so you can pay him off.
(No really, he did make it an order. Supposedly in unprintable language.)


Just that Kaphengst was tired of being an adjutant and wanted his own estate. What was your source on Fritz's involvement? I can't tell from the original comment. Or do I just need to read further in this book?

In any case, I eagerly await Heinrich/Kaphengst fic. ;)
selenak: (Bilbo Baggins)

Re: Heinrich readthrough!

[personal profile] selenak 2020-05-14 10:05 pm (UTC)(link)
Romulus and Remus: it certainly hadn‘t occured to Fritz, either, when he told Voltaire et al his twist on the legend and insisted on dating his letters from „Remusberg“ back in the light hearted later 1730s. But Heinrich refers to the legend as well, and I therefore feel entitled to speculate it did occur to him.

Kaphengst: You‘ve still got Fritz‘ involvement ahead, I think, but I also know that I in my original write up was basing this part on Krockow‘ s Heinrich and Fritz double portrait book, and I can tell you Krockow‘s source, which was Fontane in his Rheinsberg chapters, to wit the one on Kaphengst, here: https://www.textlog.de/40338.html .

(Relevant Fontane passage in German, with the „unprintable language“ part marked in fat letters: Der König, der in seiner Sanssouci-Einsamkeit von allem unterrichtet war, mißbilligte, was in Rheinsberg vorging, und wollte dem »Verhältnis« à tout prix ein Ende machen. 1774 überbrachte deshalb ein Page des Königs (von Wülknitz) dem Prinzen Heinrich ein königliches Geschenk von 10000 Stück Friedrichsdor, freilich zugleich mit der Order, »daß er den Major von Kaphengst entlassen möge«, eine Order, deren Wortlaut sich hier der Möglichkeit der Mitteilung entzieht. Der Prinz, aller Zuneigung zu seinem Günstling unerachtet, unter dessen Ungebildetheit und Eitelkeit er gelitten haben mochte, gehorchte dem Befehle sofort und tat es um so lieber, als die Entfernung Kaphengsts dem bestehenden Verhältnis nur die Last und Peinlichkeit eines unausgesetzten Verkehrs nahm, ohne das Verhältnis selbst absolut zu lösen. In der Tat, seitens des Prinzen wurde den 10000 Stück Friedrichsdors seines Bruders aus eigenen Mitteln noch ungefähr dieselbe Summe hinzugefügt und nachher unter Anzahlung von zirka 100000 Talern ein drei Meilen von Rheinsberg gelegener Graf Wartenslebenscher Güterkomplex, der die Rittergüter Meseberg, Baumgarten, Schönermark und Rauschendorf umfaßte, gekauft und deren Kaufkontrakt einige Zeit darauf dem Major von Kaphengst als Geschenk überreicht.
Kaphengst übersiedelte nunmehr nach dem am Huwenowsee gelegenen Schloß Meseberg; aber diese Übersiedlung, wie schon angedeutet, war so wenig gleichbedeutend mit Entfremdung, daß vielmehr umgekehrt das gute Einvernehmen zwischen Prinz und Günstling aus diesen zeitweiligen Trennungen nur neue Nahrung zog. Überhaupt, aller klar zutage liegenden Schwächen und Schattenseiten Kaphengsts zum Trotz, muß dem Wesen desselben ein Etwas eigen gewesen sein, das den alternden Prinzen in erklärlicher und dadurch annähernd gerechtfertigter Weise höchst sympathisch berührte


Note that unlike Fontane, we also have Lehndorff‘s journal entries on the money for Meseberg. Lehndorff‘s repeated „I don‘t get what he sees in the guy!“ are pretty standard for Lehndorff & Heinrich‘s favourites du jour, of course, but the extent of all the money and how quickly Kaphengst ran through it did provide additional frustration for him. Now if you want possible support for Ziebura‘s „maybe blackmail?“ thesis, Lehndorff at one point - which I quote im my write up for volume IV of his diaries - when he says how different Heinrich and Kaphengst are also says that they bore each other when they‘re together longer than 15 minutes, so why? But that‘s late in the relationhip, and Lehndorff also says, looking back once Kaphengst finally is dumped, that Heinrich had had a greater passion for him than any of the other guys.

Since we did speculate for Fredersdorff and Georgii the suicidal hussar along the lines of „what if? with the caveat that it might all have been gossip, we can of course do a „what if?“ for the blackmail theory. (Which Ziebura brings up as a theory only, not a definite statement, to her credit.) So if it wasn‘t just sexual passion and Kaphengst was blackmailing Heinrich, he‘d have had to have blackmail material, naturally. This couldn‘t be the relationship itself, since Heinrich was as openly gay as it was possible to be in later 17th century Prussia. Just about the only thing I can think of was if Heinrich wrote a detailed „here‘s how I‘d kill my brother the King“ plan and Kaphengst got his hand on it. But the problem with that one is that a) Kaphengst only became prominent in Heinrich‘s life in the mid 1760s, i.e. after the 7 Years War, which was the only time frame when you could have pulled off something like that in Prussia (unlike Russia), b) Kaphengst comes across in all reports on him as someone with zero self control, giving into his every instinct, and to conduct a blackmail operation and keep your material secret, that lasts so long, you do need self control, and c) Heinrich gave every indication of being fond of Kaphengst not just from afar but up close, to people who knew him pretty well (Lehndorff included), for the majority of the relationship. If Kaphengst had blackmailed him, he‘d have built up resentment, and when Heinrich was resentful, you noticed.

There‘s also the way Lehndorff‘s Kaphengst-menrtionig diary entries in the 1780s come across as reporting a gradual fading until Kaphengst (with double chin) in Berlin when Heinrich is there for the winter is just one of the people in the anteroom, to Lehndorff‘s delight. This sounds like an affair running its course to me, not to mention that Lehndorff simultanously reports the rising prominence of Tauentzien in Heinrich‘s life. (Much like Kalckreuth‘s decline in favour happened in tandem of Kaphengst‘s rise to it.) This works if it‘s a question of fading and new passion, but not if Kaphengst, unlike all the other boyfriends, has blackmail material in his hands.

No Heinrich/Kaphengst fic for me, though, because I need to be interested in both parties to write fanfiction, and Kaphengst by himself doesn‘t come across as interesting to me.

Incidentally, Heinrich/Kaphengst don‘t appear to have been exclusive on Heinrich‘s part, either, given that Mara - whose memorable „if you don‘t act lke a bastard towards this prince, you don‘t get anywhere with him“ statement Lehndorff recorded with indignation - happened during the Kaphengst years. Mind you, Mara as a non-noble artist was not in the same social class as Kalckreuth, Kaphengst and Tauentzien, all of whom were Prussian nobility. And yet, Lehndorff‘s complaints about him sound almost identical to his complaints about Kaphengst - just that Mara didn‘t get a castle and estate out of it. (Though he did get what Tauentzien would later get - an apartment wifhin Heinrich‘s town residence, use of the kitchen and the equipage for himself and his chosen guests, and earlier than that the trip to Paris and studies there.) If I were to write about one of the charismatic spendhrift jerks from the later years, I‘d go for Mara because as an artist - even Lehndorff does not dispute his musical talent - he‘s more interesting to me. (And that story Gertrud Elisabeth tells about him standing up for her so she could sing inside the palace, not in the garden pavillion where nobles could come and go at Rheinsberg does show him in a light beyond „sexy jerk“, too.) There‘s also the outside perspective (since he‘s a non-noble, unlike the other guys). And I‘ve recently learned that once his wife finally had enough and kicked him out, he did visit Heinrich again at Rheinsberg. This was already during the Comte years, and he didn‘t become a favourite again, but unlike, say, Kalckreuth, he was received in a friendly manner, and treated as a guest.
Edited 2020-05-14 22:21 (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Heinrich readthrough!

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-05-14 11:31 pm (UTC)(link)
it certainly hadn‘t occured to Fritz, either, when he told Voltaire et al his twist on the legend and insisted on dating his letters from „Remusberg“ back in the light hearted later 1730s

Well, back when Fritz was living at Rheinsberg, no one was blaming him for his brother's death. Once Heinrich was setting up monuments there...more sinister applications of the legend suggest themselves.

Fontane: thank you! My German's getting closer. :D

Kaphengst comes across in all reports on him as someone with zero self control, giving into his every instinct, and to conduct a blackmail operation and keep your material secret, that lasts so long, you do need self control

This is a very compelling argument.

If Kaphengst had blackmailed him, he‘d have built up resentment, and when Heinrich was resentful, you noticed.

This too. I found the blackmail idea fascinating for fiction but unlikely in real life. Kaphengst just seems to have been completely over the top in a way that doesn't require violating Occam's razor. Too bad we won't see this in a fic, but I totally understand.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Heinrich readthrough!

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-05-15 03:59 am (UTC)(link)
And now Kaphengst has syphilis!

[personal profile] cahn, when you get to the "French sickness" in chapter 10, that's syphilis. Everyone had to name it after someone else's country, in order to throw shade on their morals. Because xenophobia and disease outbreaks go together.

*looks around*

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Anyway, I guess Kaphengst can have syphilis because he's an unintelligent money waster exploiting Heinrich, and Marwitz can't have gonorrhea because he's a competent military man on the obelisk and "first love"? I don't think that's how it works, Ziebura...
selenak: (Default)

Re: Heinrich readthrough!

[personal profile] selenak 2020-05-15 05:38 am (UTC)(link)
I agree, though in fairness the source for Kaphengst having syphilis is Lehndorff in a diary entry, who has it from Heinrich's secretary, whereas the source for Marwitz having gonorhea is Fritz in a letter to his younger brother that's full of tauntings and mind messing anyway. This said, STD isn't a meritocracy, and Ziebura's mistake is that she argued "it probably wasn't true because Marwitz had these good qualities" instead of "it probably wasn't true because Fritz".

Incidentally, speaking of Fritz, Fontane, wanting to get his travel book published in 19th century Prussia being all "the literal version of this message can't be rendered here", I can understand, but Krockow and Ziebura, you should be able to give us the unprintable version of "Dump Kaphengst" ! What did Fritz tell his page to tell Heinrich EXACTLY?

Also, what do we think motivated Fritz? Kaphengst is a public embarassment? a new round of fraternal powerplay? Brotherly concern? (I don't mean that sarcastically. Part of the twisted messed up ness of their relationship is that Fritz does care.)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Heinrich readthrough!

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-05-16 12:58 am (UTC)(link)
"it probably wasn't true because Fritz".

"Because Fritz" is the strongest counterargument *I've* ever seen. It's kind of a gamble to accuse someone of an STD to their lover, though. As soon as Heinrich can reunite with him, that's checkable.

Still. I give it 50-50. Fritz is Fritz and willing to gamble the fate of the whole state on decisive but possibly catastrophic battles.

but Krockow and Ziebura, you should be able to give us the unprintable version of "Dump Kaphengst" !

Right? Is the letter still extant, though, or are they following Fontane?

What did Fritz tell his page to tell Heinrich EXACTLY?

Fritz: Stop letting your boytoy lead you around by the balls. (When I ran up huge debts at Rheinsberg, it was on my own behalf, no one else's. I also knew I had a throne coming to me.)

Which leads me to...

Also, what do we think motivated Fritz?

My guess? The money wasting freaking him out at an existential level. Heinrich's second in line to the throne at this point, and Fritz has one foot in the grave. All it takes is one accident or illness* to remove future FW2 from the succession...Even without that, Fritz in a year or two will be talking about prepping Heinrich to set himself up as the power behind the throne of Useless Nephew (TM). So in other words, I see them as roleplaying the previous generation again.

The difference is that Crown Prince Fritz was "wasting" money on his own expenses, "forcing" FW to try to break his will to get him to stop, whereas King Fritz has the option of just removing Kaphengst. Furthermore, King Fritz has this whole story in his head about how AW's biggest fault was being influenced by the people around him, and he removes "bad" influences from FW2 on the same grounds.

Ghost of FW: Well done, son.
Ghost of Peter Keith: *waves from Wesel*

So, brotherly concern, yes, convincing himself he knows what's best for everyone, yes, freaking out over the future of his country...possibly the definitive factor at work here.

* And, as a reminder for [personal profile] cahn, Henricus Minor, FW2's brother and beloved by Fritz, has recently died young (19) of smallpox.
selenak: (James Boswell)

Re: Heinrich readthrough!

[personal profile] selenak 2020-05-16 04:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Detective Mildred, I think you're onto something. I hadn't considered the succession question as of 1774 (when Fritz demanded the Kaphengst dumping), and it's true, the idea of someone like Kaphengst with unlimited access to the state treasury is frightening to any responsible monarch, let alone Son of FW.

mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Heinrich readthrough!

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-05-16 07:48 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm glad you asked! I hadn't given it serious thought until you did.

Small correction to my chronology: I'd forgotten to check the birth dates of FW2's sons, and sure enough, he had a couple small children in line for the throne in 1774 (birthdates 1770 and 1773). But since Heinrich's going to be regent in the absence of their father, and (at least in Fritz's mind in 1776) Cardinal Richelieu for their father, the same point applies.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Heinrich readthrough!

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-05-16 05:23 am (UTC)(link)
Well, you said you weren't up for it right now, because you had too much on your plate. I assumed you would be buying and I would be translating these books at some point. ;)

But yeah, having read more than half of this one now, I'm definitely more interested in checking out her others. My German reading list grows ever longer...