If you're aware that Saxony was one of Prussia's biggest rivals, as well as next-door neighbor, it puts both FW's actions in the War of the Polish Succession as well as Fritz's war crimes into context.
There was a GDR tv miniseries called "Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria" about the few decades where there was actually a rivalry, and the title - "Saxony's Splendour and Prussia's Glory" sums up why they were thought of as the Athens and Sparta of their day. In FW's day the division was clear cut, and August had all the top artists, the art galleries, the musicians (Quantz!), the composers - both Bach and Händel were Saxons, after all, though Händel had his big career mostly abroad, in Italy and England respectively, while Bach remained at home in Leipzig -, and the scholars (hello, Wolff). And of course drop dead gorgeous architecture, the famous porcellain in Meißen, and Poland due to the union of being the Prince Elector of Saxony and the elected King of Poland. FW and Fritz visiting the first time really must have felt like the poor relations coming to town, so during the camp at Zeithain, FW made sure that he at least brought along the one thing where he outshone all other German princes - a modern army.
Presumably it's also a(nother) reason why Fritz was snippy with Algarotti for taking the job with August III when being bored in Berlin in the early 1740s and there were a few years of silence between them. The one thing he could have done that was worse would have been accepting a job in Vienna. At least there, Algarotti limited himself to designing MT's tablewear.
Incidentally, Grumbkow-Seckendorff protocol: do you want me to post it at rheinsberg, or do you want to include it in one of yours? That's why I've held off for now.
--which goes some way toward answering my question as to how scandalous Voltaire and (the non-impregnated) Madame Denis would have been to contemporaries!
Meanwhle, Catherine's mother "saw in me her futher sister-in-law" and let brother Georg Ludwig paw 13 and 14 years old Sophie, according to her memoirs. But then, Voltaire and Madame Denis were not only non-nobles but (nominal) Catholics. (Was Hoym? As a Saxon, it could have been either way.) (ETA: I mention the religion because evidentallly Ferdinand, as a (nominal) Calvinist, didn't need anyone but Fritz' okay for the marriage to their niece. Whereas you needed to be a ruling Spanish Habsburg or a French Bourbon bribing the Vatican massively if you wanted to get niece marriage okay'd by the Pope, and the artist formerly known as Monsieur Arouet, citizen, certainly did not fall under that category, meaning he might even have been acted criminally according to (some) French law.
the title - "Saxony's Splendour and Prussia's Glory" sums up why they were thought of as the Athens and Sparta of their day.
That's interesting, because what that actually reminds me of is the famous Edgar Allen Poe line (I had to look up the attribution): "The glory that was Greece, and the grandeur that was Rome."
Presumably it's also a(nother) reason why Fritz was snippy with Algarotti for taking the job with August III when being bored in Berlin in the early 1740s and there were a few years of silence between them.
Agreed!
Incidentally, Grumbkow-Seckendorff protocol: do you want me to post it at [community profile] rheinsberg, or do you want to include it in one of yours? That's why I've held off for now.
Go ahead and post it. There's no particular post of mine I want to fit it into.
Meanwhle, Catherine's mother "saw in me her futher sister-in-law" and let brother Georg Ludwig paw 13 and 14 years old Sophie, according to her memoirs.
Wow. If I knew this, I had forgotten. This fandom: never boring!
But then, Voltaire and Madame Denis were not only non-nobles but (nominal) Catholics. (Was Hoym? As a Saxon, it could have been either way.)
I can't find anything definitive, as as you say, it could go either way.
ETA: I mention the religion because evidentallly Ferdinand, as a (nominal) Calvinist, didn't need anyone but Fritz' okay for the marriage to their niece. Whereas you needed to be a ruling Spanish Habsburg or a French Bourbon bribing the Vatican massively if you wanted to get niece marriage okay'd by the Pope
And we all know how the Church of England got its start! cahn, do we? Combination of political and religious considerations meaning Henry VIII had to be head of his own church in order to authorize his annulment from his first wife? Because the Pope, operating in a context of complicated Continental politics, kept refusing?
the artist formerly known as Monsieur Arouet, citizen, certainly did not fall under that category, meaning he might even have been acted criminally according to (some) French law.
That's actually a really interesting question. Especially with French law varying from region to region, and the fact that just because the church wouldn't give you permission to marry someone doesn't necessarily (but can) mean that it's illegal to have sex with them, or that if there is technically something on the books, anyone will care. Example: if you're a married man, you can't legally marry another woman, and extramarital sex is certainly a sin in the eyes of the Church, but was it technically against French civil law to have a mistress? I'm not actually sure.
iberiandoctor, we have a legal question! Was having non-impregnating sex with your niece illegal in all or part of France in the mid 18th century? As opposed to it not being possible to get a Catholic marriage under most circumstances?
Was having non-impregnating sex with your niece illegal in all or part of France in the mid 18th century? As opposed to it not being possible to get a Catholic marriage under most circumstances?
Non-impregnating sex with a niece in her 30s who is a widow, if that makes a legal difference. (I.e. no virginity lost, also no husband or parents' authority gone against. I'm just recalling that there were legal systems where the problem of extramarital sex was basically the hurting of another man's property rights.
That's interesting, because what that actually reminds me of is the famous Edgar Allen Poe line (I had to look up the attribution): "The glory that was Greece, and the grandeur that was Rome."
Ah, but Poe's poetry, as opposed to Poe's short stories, were and are fairly unknown in Germany, due to not having found adequate translations. (Whereas the short stories really were a hit here from the later 19th century onwards.) And the GDR teaching schedule didn't exactly emphasize US literature, so I doubt those East German tv writers were thinking of Poe. If you want to try google translate, here is the German wiki entry about the tv series, which was based on three novels by a Polish writer, and became an East German tv classic of sorts. Since most movies and tv shows of the era focus on Prussia and the Prussian pov, this is the rare exception.
I'm just recalling that there were legal systems where the problem of extramarital sex was basically the hurting of another man's property rights.
Indeed, married vs. unmarried is a very important distinction. Also the virgin aspect (not ruining her future marriage prospects). There are many times and places in which if you were a woman, being a widow got you more freedom (not just sexual) than many of your other options. (Of course, "freedom" also depends on which specific freedoms you personally were most interested in.)
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Re: Katte - Species Facti 1
There was a GDR tv miniseries called "Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria" about the few decades where there was actually a rivalry, and the title - "Saxony's Splendour and Prussia's Glory" sums up why they were thought of as the Athens and Sparta of their day. In FW's day the division was clear cut, and August had all the top artists, the art galleries, the musicians (Quantz!), the composers - both Bach and Händel were Saxons, after all, though Händel had his big career mostly abroad, in Italy and England respectively, while Bach remained at home in Leipzig -, and the scholars (hello, Wolff). And of course drop dead gorgeous architecture, the famous porcellain in Meißen, and Poland due to the union of being the Prince Elector of Saxony and the elected King of Poland. FW and Fritz visiting the first time really must have felt like the poor relations coming to town, so during the camp at Zeithain, FW made sure that he at least brought along the one thing where he outshone all other German princes - a modern army.
Presumably it's also a(nother) reason why Fritz was snippy with Algarotti for taking the job with August III when being bored in Berlin in the early 1740s and there were a few years of silence between them. The one thing he could have done that was worse would have been accepting a job in Vienna. At least there, Algarotti limited himself to designing MT's tablewear.
Incidentally, Grumbkow-Seckendorff protocol: do you want me to post it at
--which goes some way toward answering my question as to how scandalous Voltaire and (the non-impregnated) Madame Denis would have been to contemporaries!
Meanwhle, Catherine's mother "saw in me her futher sister-in-law" and let brother Georg Ludwig paw 13 and 14 years old Sophie, according to her memoirs. But then, Voltaire and Madame Denis were not only non-nobles but (nominal) Catholics. (Was Hoym? As a Saxon, it could have been either way.) (ETA: I mention the religion because evidentallly Ferdinand, as a (nominal) Calvinist, didn't need anyone but Fritz' okay for the marriage to their niece. Whereas you needed to be a ruling Spanish Habsburg or a French Bourbon bribing the Vatican massively if you wanted to get niece marriage okay'd by the Pope, and the artist formerly known as Monsieur Arouet, citizen, certainly did not fall under that category, meaning he might even have been acted criminally according to (some) French law.
Re: Katte - Species Facti 1
That's interesting, because what that actually reminds me of is the famous Edgar Allen Poe line (I had to look up the attribution): "The glory that was Greece, and the grandeur that was Rome."
Presumably it's also a(nother) reason why Fritz was snippy with Algarotti for taking the job with August III when being bored in Berlin in the early 1740s and there were a few years of silence between them.
Agreed!
Incidentally, Grumbkow-Seckendorff protocol: do you want me to post it at [community profile] rheinsberg, or do you want to include it in one of yours? That's why I've held off for now.
Go ahead and post it. There's no particular post of mine I want to fit it into.
Meanwhle, Catherine's mother "saw in me her futher sister-in-law" and let brother Georg Ludwig paw 13 and 14 years old Sophie, according to her memoirs.
Wow. If I knew this, I had forgotten. This fandom: never boring!
But then, Voltaire and Madame Denis were not only non-nobles but (nominal) Catholics. (Was Hoym? As a Saxon, it could have been either way.)
I can't find anything definitive, as as you say, it could go either way.
ETA: I mention the religion because evidentallly Ferdinand, as a (nominal) Calvinist, didn't need anyone but Fritz' okay for the marriage to their niece. Whereas you needed to be a ruling Spanish Habsburg or a French Bourbon bribing the Vatican massively if you wanted to get niece marriage okay'd by the Pope
And we all know how the Church of England got its start!
the artist formerly known as Monsieur Arouet, citizen, certainly did not fall under that category, meaning he might even have been acted criminally according to (some) French law.
That's actually a really interesting question. Especially with French law varying from region to region, and the fact that just because the church wouldn't give you permission to marry someone doesn't necessarily (but can) mean that it's illegal to have sex with them, or that if there is technically something on the books, anyone will care. Example: if you're a married man, you can't legally marry another woman, and extramarital sex is certainly a sin in the eyes of the Church, but was it technically against French civil law to have a mistress? I'm not actually sure.
Re: Katte - Species Facti 1
Non-impregnating sex with a niece in her 30s who is a widow, if that makes a legal difference. (I.e. no virginity lost, also no husband or parents' authority gone against. I'm just recalling that there were legal systems where the problem of extramarital sex was basically the hurting of another man's property rights.
That's interesting, because what that actually reminds me of is the famous Edgar Allen Poe line (I had to look up the attribution): "The glory that was Greece, and the grandeur that was Rome."
Ah, but Poe's poetry, as opposed to Poe's short stories, were and are fairly unknown in Germany, due to not having found adequate translations. (Whereas the short stories really were a hit here from the later 19th century onwards.) And the GDR teaching schedule didn't exactly emphasize US literature, so I doubt those East German tv writers were thinking of Poe. If you want to try google translate, here is the German wiki entry about the tv series, which was based on three novels by a Polish writer, and became an East German tv classic of sorts. Since most movies and tv shows of the era focus on Prussia and the Prussian pov, this is the rare exception.
Re: Katte - Species Facti 1
Indeed, married vs. unmarried is a very important distinction. Also the virgin aspect (not ruining her future marriage prospects). There are many times and places in which if you were a woman, being a widow got you more freedom (not just sexual) than many of your other options. (Of course, "freedom" also depends on which specific freedoms you personally were most interested in.)