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Frederick the Great discussion post 12
Every time I am amazed and enchanted that this is still going on! Truly DW is the Earthly Paradise!
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rheinsberg :)
All the good stuff continues to be archived at
rheinsberg :)
Re: Blanning 3
Re: why Blanning just accepts Preuss on Elizabeth when he doesn't accept Preuss' take on Fritz: I suspect laziness, pure and simple. He doesn't have to do extra research that way. (See also Burgdorf, who even has "Frederick the Gay" written on his agenda, still not bothering to go to the state archive himself, or read Lehndorff's diaries, and instead provides no other citation than Ziebura while presenting his summary of her research. And at least he does provide a citation there. Unlike for Grigorii the suicidal hussar - btw, I looked up anyone with a similar sounding name in the Frederician dictionary Leuschner put together, and no luck - or the statement that Wilhelmine was in love with Katte.) Blanning from what you say doesn't strike me as all that interested in the minor supporting cast, and Elisaveta shows up solely during the 7 Years War. So no extra research for her.
Was thinking of Louis 9 the Saint, yes, not Louis 7 Eleanor's husband (who did not have mistresses, either, true).
Blanning's "FW2 hastily removed all the male nudes" and Blannings "people thought Pompadour in politics = sleaze" strikes me as both committing the cardinal sin of assigning present day attitudes to the past. FW2 had a bad relationship with Fritz and was flamboyantly heterosexual, ergo, he must have been a homophobe censoring all the gay. A head of goverment's mistress believed to be in charge of politics - so sleazy! This just isn't how you should write biography.
Speaking of mistresses, behold this bit from the later conversations with Fritz:
Fritz: *spends a lifetime mocking Louis XV. for being run by his dick and allowing his mistresses, especially but not exclusively Pompadour, to influence him*
Fritz: *very annoyed that Louis XVI, married to daughter of MT, still won't budge from the France/Austria alliance*
Fritz to French visitors of the early 1780s: Your king should totally take a mistresss!
ETA: Also, Catt is still around at this date, I think? I've seen 1780 and 1782 for his dismissal. But I haven't seen it in any contemporary source, so I don't know.
Haven't seen any mention of Catt in Lucchesini's diary, so if he was around and/or talked about, it's not there, or I overlooked it. (But I tried running the name through the search machine, and it doesn't find any Catt in the German translation of Lucchesini at least.)
(BTW: we know why Louis and MA didn't have kids during the first seven years until Joseph became the world's least likely marriage counsellor before Munck the Finnish sex machine in Sweden, because we have Joseph's letters on the subject. But it says something about how discreetly this was handled that Fritz, with all his claimed "secret sources" at Versailles, had zero idea about this spicy bit of gossip.) And all the later revolutionaries who ascribed all sorts of things to MA's sex life and questioned the paternity of her kids never seem to have heard of it, either.)
Re: Blanning 3
Re: why Blanning just accepts Preuss on Elizabeth when he doesn't accept Preuss' take on Fritz: I suspect laziness, pure and simple. He doesn't have to do extra research that way.
Yep, exactly. When writing about Fritz, stick to the sources that are about Fritz. I mean, I myself am not an expert on French, Austrian, or Russian politics, but at least I'm aware that I'm looking at everything through a Prussian lens! And I would not pass personal judgment, in a published book, on Elizaveta or her ministers or her lover/morganatic husband by quoting exclusively Prussian sources.
Fritz to French visitors of the early 1780s: Your king should totally take a mistresss!
Wasn't he trying to get his niece into power in the Netherlands? Women shouldn't have power unless it benefits him!
Re: Blanning 3
LOL, Fritz! Mistresses are fine if he supplies them!
Re: Blanning 3
(Yes, Zimmermann, I'm sure that was the true purpose of any handsome young male sighted in either Potsdam or Vienna.)
Re: Blanning 3
*choke*
Re: Blanning 3
I meant to add, if you don't want to do extra research, fair enough! But you can still do responsible scholarship by refraining from saying things that your sources might not be the most reliable on. If you're talking about the Seven Years' War from a Fritzian perspective, it suffices to say that Elizaveta was Empress and Bestushev was foreign minister, and attempts to bribe and persuade them out of attacking Prussia were unsuccessful. It is not necessary to start commenting on internal Russian politics, or the intelligence of Elizaveta's boyfriend/husband, as though the Prussian envoy had the final word on that subject.