cahn | Frederick the Great discussion post 12

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frederick the great

Frederick the Great discussion post 12

Every time I am amazed and enchanted that this is still going on! Truly DW is the Earthly Paradise!

All the good stuff continues to be archived at

rheinsberg :)

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*applauds*

Splendid Prussian historical-geographical run down!

re: Danzig - what the footnote (to Paul not wanting to talk to any Danzigers because they're not nice to Fritz) said was "Friedrich was unhappy with Danzig not wanting to be part of Prussia", and I, typing and translating during my two hours, didn't look up when Danzig actually came under official Prussian control and just made an assumption. Ditto for Hanse city vs free city of the HRE, I just recalled that it had special city status while typing without looking it up. Hanse city makes much more sense, though.

Pomerania: LOL.

cahn, you might or might not recall that Lehndorff in his entry on Fredersdorf marvels that a guy "from the most backward Pomerania" made it to the top. Also, Gustav when having it out with Mom about her calling his heir a bastard threatened to send Ulrike to the Swedish part of Pomerania, because that's a thing, too. Today's Germany has a state called "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern", but most of formerly Prussian Pomerania is in Poland. There's one creepy German song for children which people date either originating the 30 Years War or to the 7 Years War, which goes thusly:

Maikäfer flieg/dein Vater ist im Krieg/ die Mutter ist in Pommerland/Pommerland ist abgebrannt/ Maikäfer flieg

(Maybug fly/ your father is in the war/ your mother is in Pomerania/Pomerania has been burned down/ Maybug fly)

(The first recorded instant of someone writing that down is in 1800, but whether it came into being in the 30 Years War or in the 7 Years War has been debated ever since. Pomerania got scorched in both wars. (And then again in WWII.) I sang that song as a child, too, without knowing where the hell Pomerania was, since even Vorpommern was in East Germany behind the Iron Curtain.

I, typing and translating during my two hours, didn't look up when Danzig actually came under official Prussian control and just made an assumption.

Aha, that makes sense. I would not have looked it up in my two hours in the library either! But you've surprised me with things like "chocolate: not just a beverage!" before, so I have to ask. Also, I did make a couple chronological mistakes during the initial write-up that I fortunately had time to catch and edit myself before you woke up and caught them. ;)

Maikäfer flieg/dein Vater ist im Krieg/ die Mutter ist in Pommerland/Pommerland ist abgebrannt/ Maikäfer flieg

(Maybug fly/ your father is in the war/ your mother is in Pomerania/Pomerania has been burned down/ Maybug fly)

Oh, wow, that *is* a creepy song. A surprising number of children's songs are, actually.

I sang that song as a child, too, without knowing where the hell Pomerania was, since even Vorpommern was in East Germany behind the Iron Curtain.

Lol!

By the way, this does mean Trenck was definitely not in Prussian territory when he was captured by Fritz in Danzig. It's also quite possible that he traveled around East Prussia to get to Danzig, by land or by sea. It was still a hell of a risk, coming that close to Fritz's territory, but it's not quite as stupid as actually returning to Prussia.

Oh, ha! I just refreshed myself on the date of Trenck's capture, and it's 1753. Year of Fritz arresting people in free cities outside his territory, I guess! (The other one being Voltaire in Frankfurt, for those who may benefit from the chronology reminder.)

Geneaology-wise, I also spotted that Trenck's mother was a Derschau, and I've now found that he and the guy who interrogated Crown Prince Fritz and generally made him miserable before the interrogation, were first cousins once removed. Interrogator being of an older generation, of course.

Well spotted! Btw, Wilhelmine mentions Derschau the despised as being "of the Austrian party, and well suited to them" in the 1720s court. I assume FW made him interrogator to have someone he was certain would not be sympathizing with Fritz.

re: Trenck, though: what I'm curious about - how did the Prussians know he'd come to Danzig to be arrested? Someone kept an eye on his mother just in case all those years? Trenck being Trenck, his whereabouts were known due to flamboyant scandals? (If he did get it on with someone at the Russian court in the meantime as claimed.)

I do find it interesting that no one writing in the 1750s of those testimonies I've read mentions Trenck's arrest and subsequent imprisonment sans trial. I don't just mean Lehndorff but the various foreign enovys. You'd think at the very least the Austrians would be interested, whether in a "thank God, now he's someone else's problem" or a "zomg, person who is actually now one of our citizens got arrested on neutral territory!" manner, but: crickets. Now if Voltaire got arrested that same year, it explains some of it, because the Fritz/Voltaire showdown by the very nature of the people involved is going to grab the most of everyone's attention, but it's still interesting that only memoirists writing well after Trenck's own memoirs were published, like Thiébault, bring him up.

Conclusion: as opposed to Voltaire in Frankfurt, or for that matter Glasow three years later when Lehndorff hears not only about the arrest but the accusations/suspicions because everyone gossips about them at Easter, this must have been handled in an absolutely hush-hush manner.

Well spotted!

Now that we're getting to know all the minor characters, we can figure out how they're all related via those intra-nobility marriages! Even

cahn is spotting minor characters from the same family and wanting to know how they're related. ;)

how did the Prussians know he'd come to Danzig to be arrested?

That is an excellent question. Perhaps the Volz sourcebook on Trenck+Fritz that you're going to get from Stabi when it's open (right?) will tell us!

I do find it interesting that no one writing in the 1750s of those testimonies I've read mentions Trenck's arrest and subsequent imprisonment sans trial. I don't just mean Lehndorff but the various foreign enovys.

That's really interesting. Not having read the reports, I hadn't noticed that was missing. Is it possible our Fritz-sympathetic editors like Jessen have just edited those documents out? But you're right that Lehndorff doesn't seem to know, which means it must be less of a scandal than Glasow.

Conclusion: as opposed to Voltaire in Frankfurt... this must have been handled in an absolutely hush-hush manner.

Lol, now I'm trying to imagine handling Voltaire in a hush-hush manner. Even if you managed to lock him up in a place where he couldn't smuggle out polemics about how you are the ABSOLUTE WORST, I feel like the sudden silence in and of itself would be suspicious.

Europe: Hmm, it's been awfully peaceful on the Voltaire front lately. Only foul play could explain this.
Europe: *eyes swivel toward Fritz*
Europe: We're curious about all those visits to Magdeburg you've been making lately. Care to explain?
Fritz: What? Wha-yes, yes, I have lots of troops there. It's very important that I review them at least twice a month. Yes, this is a new practice I'm experimenting with. You say Voltaire's gone missing? I hadn't even noticed, frankly. Why would I pay attention to that SCUM OF THE EARTH?
Fritz: *publishes anonymous pamphlet in hopes people will attribute it to Voltaire*
Fritz: *fools no one*

It's indeed possible that Trenck-mentioning envoy reports simply haven't made it ito publication. However, the Trenck/Amalie romance was really popular among late 19th and early 20th century novelists, and the debate on how much or little truthful Trenck was raged on, so I would assume if, say, an Austrian report that mentions him did exist, this would have made it into print a long time ago. Especially since the archives in Vienna were far less censored than the ones in Berlin (not just to historians; by the 20th century, novelist Stefan Zweig can look up Joseph's letter to Leopold about their sister's marital sex life or lack of same), and even in the 19th century, Austrian historians would probably have downright enjoyed publishing anything embarassing to the Prussians. Especially since the majority of German historians swallowed the Hohenzollern version of history so completely that when stuff like Arneth documenting that the "MT wrote a dear sister/dear cousin letter" tale was pure Prussian propaganda and not fact happened, it took eons to sink in (with some laudable exceptions).

(We don't have all those Seckendorf reports to Eugene about Junior's marriage plans that destroyed the legend of the evil Catholic plot thanks to Prussian archives, I don't think.)

Lol, now I'm trying to imagine handling Voltaire in a hush-hush manner.

Agreed that this would have been impossible, even if they were no witnesses to the abduction and Voltaire didn't manage any message smuggling, by the very nature of his silence.

(Voltaire: I've been locked up in the Bastille itself and used the opportunity for publicity. You think some second rate Saxon prison is going to shut me up... Luc? Do you?)

However, the Trenck/Amalie romance was really popular among late 19th and early 20th century novelists, and the debate on how much or little truthful Trenck was raged on

I eagerly await your report on the source book. :D

(Voltaire: I've been locked up in the Bastille itself and used the opportunity for publicity. You think some second rate Saxon prison is going to shut me up... Luc? Do you?)

Luc: I just wanted to put you in a birdcage and come visit you regularly so you could talk to meeeee, and only me, Der Einzige. Is that too much to ask?
Voltaire: At least in the Bastille, I didn't have to listen to your verses!

you might or might not recall that Lehndorff in his entry on Fredersdorf marvels that a guy "from the most backward Pomerania" made it to the top.

Ohhhhh! I forgot it was Pomerania, but I remember the backward part :)

Man, creepy songs for children are creepy. (I sang somewhat creepy songs too as a kid, but as far as I know they didn't have any historical basis.)

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Frederick the Great discussion post 12

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