cahn | Frederick the Great discussion post 12

OMG, I love it!

He would NOT be able to resist.

He would not! And it would feed into the love-hate relationship, as Fritz is never able to forgive Voltaire for rescuing him and thus getting the upper hand.

Indeed, and I would say I have my next Yuletide AU, except there's one problem for me with OOCness - not by Fritz or Voltaire, but I think MT, for all her Fritz loathing, would be too cautious to set a precedent by putting a crowned monarch on trial for wars of aggression. (For the same reason Elizabeth I. was extremely reluctant to put Mary Stuart on trial and then to have her executed. It's not the death that's the problem here, it's the legal precedent you're setting, which might be turned against you or any other monarch.

I would have to study the conditions of the Westfalian Peace Treaty (Cahn, that's the one ending the 30 Years War a century earlier, aka the most devastating war ever on European soil until the 20th century), too, because I think that actually provides already some legal basis. It was the first time a bunch of European powers agreed on the "War of aggression & invading countries = bad" principle. (Back when Bush 2 invaded Iraq, you had a bunch of newspaper columnists saying "that's it, the Westfalian Peace Treaty is broken". I mean, obviously Hitler & Co. had no problem breaking it earlier than that, but the journalist meant "by a nation priding itself on being on a lawful side of things".)

(Mind you: France was one of the powers supposed to guarantee the upholding of the Westfalian Peace Treaty, which France blithely used as a pretense to involve itself in the War of Polish Succession, the War of Austrian Succession and the 7 Years War. Gotta protect *ally of the moment* from *enemy of the moment* on HRE soil, which was where the 30 Years War had been fought.)

All this being said, I would so love a story featuring Brother Voltaire coming to the rescue of extremly loathing to be rescued Fritz by the power of the pen! At which point of the 7 Years War would you suggest Fritz to be captured?

You know, sometimes for the sake of a good fic, you have to handwave your premise. If the execution is good, it's perfectly fine by my standards! I trust you can come up with something to satisfy our scruples, and then move on to execution.

At which point of the 7 Years War would you suggest Fritz to be captured?

Ooh, interesting question. If you want to go with historical occasions on which he narrowly escaped capture, as opposed to inserting a fictional capture at a convenient point (which is also legit!), the first two candidates that come to mind are Kunersdorf, the absolute nadir of his misfortunes, when he was nearly captured in the battle (against the Russians) and had to be rescued by some of Zieten's hussars, and the plot by this guy to take advantage of the fact that Fritz wasn't heavily guarded at Prussian headquarters. I believe the latter took place in late 1761, i.e., shortly before Elizabeth of Russia died.

I believe the latter took place in late 1761, i.e., shortly before Elizabeth of Russia died.

The problem is that if it's shortly before Elizabeth dies, then as soon as Peter gets on the throne he will insist on doing the Fritz rescuing, and I can't have that. So Kunersdorf would be better!

Would we also let the Russians do what they miraculously didn't in RL, i.e progress to Berlin and unite with the Swedes there, so Regent!Heinrich has to negotiate a surrender? Or do they still not do that, since Fritz has been captured, and Heinrich still goes for a peace but from a somewhat better position?

Alternatively: how about Hochkirch? That has the advantage that he's battling Austrians, not Russians, and they could have orders for such a scenario that will end up with Fritz in Frankfurt.

Of course, we'd also have to explain why Seydlitz or Ziethen or any of the others don't try a daring rescue as long as Fritz is still nearby.

This is all wonderful and I am just watching it with awe and delight.

so Regent!Heinrich has to negotiate a surrender

I read the words "Regent!Heinrich" and got very excited. I want ALLLLLL the Regent!Heinrich and sibling Hohenzollern dynamics AU :DDDDD (I mean, I want the rest of it too!)

then as soon as Peter gets on the throne he will insist on doing the Fritz rescuing, and I can't have that.

Hahaha. Well, he'll certainly throw his weight around and attack the Austrians, but will he actually be effective in rescuing his hero before Voltaire gets there? Maybe Peter's the one who uses his leverage in a way that somehow results in a trial that nobody wants.

As for trials: one option is setting this in an AU where the trying of monarchs is a normal procedure with lots of precedent, either in general or because the Diet has more teeth. Depends on how canon-divergent you want to go (and how much you want to explore the consequences of a world where monarchs are more accountable).

how about Hochkirch? That has the advantage that he's battling Austrians, not Russians, and they could have orders for such a scenario that will end up with Fritz in Frankfurt.

I did think of Hochkirch, and for the reasons you mention. It's definitely an option. Let's keep it in mind!

I'm hoping to be able to read up more on Fritz's wars after my concentration gets fixed, hopefully in the next couple months, and since I hear you're too busy to write this month anyway *cough broccoli* :P, let me get back to you on this?

Of course, we'd also have to explain why Seydlitz or Ziethen or any of the others don't try a daring rescue as long as Fritz is still nearby.

Oh, they can try anything they want; failure is always an option (for the writer)!

Oh, selenak is talking about Yuletide here! I am totally sitting here putting it on my list of Frederician AUs and making plans to ask for this :P :D

Yes! I support you requesting this and selenak writing it! And I will do my best as 7 Years' War consultant, especially once I can read books again (I've got 3-4 military history books next up on my Fritzian wishlist). :D

And it would feed into the love-hate relationship, as Fritz is never able to forgive Voltaire for rescuing him and thus getting the upper hand.

...I didn't think about this, but this just makes it all the better :D

IKR? The indignity! I mean, some part of him would also be gratified that Voltaire cared enough to to ride, err, write to his rescue, as opposed to just pointing and laughing, but the far greater part would be furious to be in this position and suspect Voltaire didn't care at all, he just wanted to collect glowing coals on Fritz' head!

Meanwhile in Prussia:

Mitchell: Your Royal Highness, forgive a Scot the blunt speaking, but if you don't do someting to rescue your brother, he'll end up being seen as a martyr and you'll be seen as Judas Iscariot. Trust me, we have Mary Stuart in our history, I know whereof I speak. She was totally unpopular right until she was a martyred prisoner. You have a country to rebuild, you don't want to start by everyone hating your guts.

Heinrich: You want me to rescue my brother. Who started the war and got himself captured all by his own decisions.

Mitchell: You know I'm right.

Heinrich:...I guess. Besides, they might want to put me on trial next, given I co-lead the army in that war. DAMMIT. Seydlitz, we're starting Operation Damsel.

Mitchell: Damsel? If he finds out you codenamed it that...

Heinrich: Precisely. Also, he's not the only damsel I have in mind. Seydlitz, attend.

Seydlitz a few hours later: leaves on mysterious ways in the general direction of Vienna with a very small company of experienced soldiers. His mission: Kidnap Joseph for an inofficial prisoner's exchange, while officially Prussia will claim that Fritz-curious Joseph asked for a stint in the Prussian army to learn all about it on his own initiative.

some part of him would also be gratified that Voltaire cared enough to to ride, err, write to his rescue, as opposed to just pointing and laughing, but the far greater part would be furious to be in this position and suspect Voltaire didn't care at all, he just wanted to collect glowing coals on Fritz' head!

Yup, yup. It'll be mixed feelings all the way, just like Schwerin winning Mollwitz.

Mitchell: Damsel? If he finds out you codenamed it that...

TOO GOOD. Speaking of indignity! I'm now totally prepared to see an anonymous Yuletide featuring Operation Damsel!

This is so great.

officially Prussia will claim that Fritz-curious Joseph asked for a stint in the Prussian army to learn all about it on his own initiative.

HAHAHA. Heinrich the schemer strikes again!

I also love how minor characters Mitchell and Seydlitz are making it in. This is gonna be so great.

TOO GOOD. Speaking of indignity! I'm now totally prepared to see an anonymous Yuletide featuring Operation Damsel!

So what would Fritz hate more? Being rescued by Heinrich or being rescued by Voltaire? And would it be plausible that he starts an argument when the secret prisoner exchange is on, which is why it doesn't work out, which is why Voltaire can still do the rescue via publicity campaign?

So what would Fritz hate more? Being rescued by Heinrich or being rescued by Voltaire?

Oh, man. Probably Voltaire, although Heinrich is going to get the rough side of his tongue too. I feel like "getting captured because you fought in the front lines/ventured past enemy lines on your reconnaissance/displayed more personal courage than sense" is a possibility Fritz has entertained before. He's got a narrative for it, and it's a politico-military narrative with a heavy dose of Stoicism.

But getting put on trial--again! let's not forget the first trial!--in front of all Europe and getting rescued by the guy he hero-worships as an intellectual and has been sparring with and trying to impress and trying to get the upper hand over (impress ~~the French~~ Voltaire, mock Voltaire, beat Voltaire)--is just so outside anything that he has a narrative for that he's going to be totally at the mercy of his emotions.

Now as to how Fritz behaves in captivity, that's an interesting question. We have a lot of his *discourse* on captivity, which is related to but not identical to how he would behave. Captivity itself is humiliating but not necessary shameful, not if you got it by displaying courage and determination and refusing to yield. See also, his reaction to Fouqué's defeat and capture at Landeshut ("Fouqué behaved like a Roman") vs. Finck laying down his arms at Maxen (he scapegoats Finck so badly even Eichel supposedly disapproves).

Is it different when one of your generals is captured and when you are? Of course. Fritz is going to be super defensive about getting captured. Which means, 1) it's someone else's fault, not his, and 2) he's a Roman, a total Roman, a PERFECT ULTIMATE ROMAN.

Looking at Fritz's discourse, it seems that defeat--in the war--is the thing that he's most willing to consider committing suicide over. If Prussia is partitioned by his many enemies, Fritz at least says he doesn't want to survive that. If Fritz is captured and the war is still on with a good general (Heinrich) at the head of the army, Fritz might take that in stride as much as he takes anything in stride. (I.e. like a terrier, not like a master of chill.)

Fritz not actually committing suicide when captured: extremely likely in my view. Stoic or not, his survival instincts are first-rate. We've seen him capitulate and live to fight another day, at Küstrin. And his control instincts are just as strong; he might respect Heinrich's competence as a second-in-command, but he does *not* want him calling the shots. I think he'd stick around just to get back in command. (He might insist to everyone that the state doesn't need him and will survive him just fine, but while there's breath in his body, I think he fights to get control back.)

And would it be plausible that he starts an argument when the secret prisoner exchange is on, which is why it doesn't work out

I find that plausible, especially since Fritz needs to 1) defend getting captured as not something he did wrong, and 2) make it clear that someone else is at fault here.

I wish I could find the source, and I will keep an eye out because I feel like it's a letter and not just a novel, I mean biography, but I have a memory of Fritz saying something like, "If I'm captured, you're not to make any concessions to get me back; the welfare of the state comes first." And even if that's not a real quote, you could get the gist of it out of other things he said.

So if they come to rescue him, on the one hand he badly wants back in power, but on the other, he needs to be in control of the current situation. So if they say they want to trade him for Joseph, Fritz can go, "Trade Joseph for Silesia, you idiots!" Which would allow him to feel like he's calling the shots even while in prison, justify his capture, and present a picture of himself as all noble and Roman and such. And he still believes that as long as there's breath in his body, he can get out of here and back into power (he's survived capture and humiliation before, and he wrote to Wilhelmine from capture, chi ha tempo, ha vita), and if they hang onto Silesia, it justifies his entire reign.

It would be a very complex picture of a guy who has survival instincts, control issues, the personality of a terrier, the willingness to sacrifice his own life and freedom for his goals, the ability to hit rock bottom and keep going, the ability to reconcile Stoic philosophy with his innate refusal to die, and the ability to make you want to strangle him while you're trying to save his life.

Meanwhile in Vienna:

FS: ...the Archduke Joseph has been what?

MT: That entire family belongs in a prison. Clearly.

Isabella: *looks suspiciously undistressed*

Maria Christina: Mom, I think you need to be strong now. I mean, that's what you always say, right? Country before family?

FS: We're still not letting your brother rot in Berlin. I've been there. The beds alone are a trial. Besides, it's not like we could have kept the King of Prussia a prisoner for any length of time in any regard, and an exchange as the ending of this war...

MT: I'll remind you that an ancestor of mine kept Richard Coeur de Lion prisoner for two and a half years and got enough money out of it to finance the entire city wall around Vienna.

FS: But Mitz, you're not seriously intending to leave our boy with the Prussians?

MT: Of course not! I have a plan.

Maria Christina: *disappointed* You do?

MT: A very secret plan.

*refuses to say more, but beckons onen of her new ladies in waiting to her*

*later that night*

MT to the Chevalier d'Eon, famous transgender aventurer who currently is the secret go between between her, Elisaveta and Madame de Pompadour: I need you to rescue my son from the Prussians.

!!!!! omg I laughed so hard!
Also, hoooooow have I not heard about the Chevalier d'Eon before now?!

Isabella: *looks suspiciously undistressed*

Maria Christina: Mom, I think you need to be strong now. I mean, that's what you always say, right? Country before family?

LOLOLOLOL! Missing scene:

Isabella, woken from sleep: Whaa--?

Seydlitz: DAMMIT! Wrong bedroom, we thought Joseph was in here. Ugh, now she's going to call the guards and we're toast.

Isabella: No, wait! You're here to... kidnap Joseph?

Seydlitz: Well, that was the plan --

Isabella: His bedroom's over there. Let me draw you a map.

Also, hoooooow have I not heard about the Chevalier d'Eon before now?!

Because you haven't read the mob boss AU fic! I mean to say, that's where I know him/her/them from,

selenak probably has all sorts of serious business sources. *cough*

I have to run for a bit, but you can be sure one of us will give you a rundown in the near future. [ETA: Oh, I see she linked to Wikipedia. That works!]

Isabella: His bedroom's over there. Let me draw you a map.

*dies* This whole thing is too good.

Edited 2020-03-03 14:54 (UTC)

Isabella so would, and I love your missing scene!

This is awesome and I was delighted to see the Chevalier appear!

Isabella: *looks suspiciously undistressed*

Maria Christina: Mom, I think you need to be strong now. I mean, that's what you always say, right? Country before family?

This is great, and I love how we have the context to appreciate this, which I definitely did not before joining the earthly paradise of our salon!

FS: We're still not letting your brother rot in Berlin. I've been there. The beds alone are a trial.

HAHAHA. Too good.

I was delighted to see the Chevalier appear!

When I wondered which swashbuckling secret agent type figure MT could task with rescueing her son, the Chevalier immediately came to mind! (Especially since he/she/they definitely knew Elisaveta and Pompadour, and was on the allied against Fritz side of the 7 Years War.)

BTW, the Duc de Croy has an entry about the Chevalier - whom he met repeatedly over the years - in which he's certain d'Eon was a biological woman, which, as wiki tells me, later was disproved upon their death. But that was years later, when D'Eon was so well known that he couldn't have been a good secret agent/Joseph rescuer anymore.

Meanwhile, on the road:

Hussar: Boss, the kid is talking my ear off. Can you ride with him for a while?
Seydlitz: He's complaining this much?
Hussar: Nah, he wants to know all about the King, and I'm fresh out of non treasonous anecdotes.

*later*

Seydlitz: So, just in theory, your highness, if I asked you to give me your word not to try and escape before we reach the border, seeing as there's so much more you could still learn about us Prussians...

Joseph: Sorry, no can do. I mean, I think you're cool, and that your monarch rocks, but as long as I'm your prisoner, you're having leverage on my mother and my Empire. Honor and common sense demands I should try to escape the moment you're not looking. Tell you what, though: have you ever considered that I'm your future Emperor? If you changed sides and returned with me to Vienna, it wouldn't be treason, it would be obeying a higher loyalty, and also, we pay better. And have better food.

Seydlitz: And a chastity commission, or so I hear. Nope, sorry. I love the ladies too much. Also my King. I suppose.

Joseph: I get that, but you could love him from an Austrian distance. There's precedent, is all I'm saying.

Edited 2020-03-04 09:02 (UTC)

Seydlitz: And a chastity commission, or so I hear. Nope, sorry. I love the ladies too much. Also my King. I suppose.

LOLOL. Seydlitz, I'm sex-positive as they come, but since you don't seem to be practicing *safe* sex, you might want to take a break from the ladies. For your own health, and that of your partners.

Joseph: I get that, but you could love him from an Austrian distance. There's precedent, is all I'm saying.

Too good!

Chronology note for

cahn, Joseph is anywhere from 16 to 21, depending on when during the Seven Years' War this is set (presumably not during the first few months, otherwise he might be 15).

Did we tell

cahn about Seydlitz' syphilis yet? If we didn't, Cahn, Seydlitz really would have benefited from a break. He had contracted syphilis at a young age, and eventually died in the tertiary stage. There was a period of enstrangement from Fritz but also a reconciliation, and a very sad final meeting,. To quote Wiki: In August 1773, in his last illness, Frederick and Seydlitz met again at Seydlitz's home at Minkovsky near Ohlau (now Oława, Poland). The King sat beside his sickbed, horrified at Seydlitz's condition, and even persuaded him to take some of his medications, but Seydlitz would not look at him; the illness had already deformed his face.

I mentioned it once, but not in this much detail, and I'm sure it got lost in the flood of information. This fandom is like drinking from a firehose!

Seydlitz, btw, is the one who got wounded in battle, recovered from his wound, and right before he returned to active duty, wrote to Fritz asking if he could marry someone who could act as his nurse in the hypothetical event that he got injured again someday.

Fritz: Sure! I'm all about marrying for the distant prospect of future medical care. I know you would never get married because you *wanted* to...right?

Seydlitz: Nope, not a bit of it. I mean, what about my entire life history would make you think I'm attracted to women? I'm as pure a Potsdamite as you and your brother! Just like your chamberlain boyfriend, who also married a nurse.

Fritz: I find this argument totally convincing. Permission granted!

Seydlitz, sotto voce: Fritz will let you marry a prospective nurse, spread the word!

ETA: Seydlitz also the one about whom Fritz wrote to Heinrich that his death could have been avoided if only he had listened his doctors ~~like Fritz notoriously never does~~.

Edited 2020-03-04 17:12 (UTC)

Re: Unfun interluding footnote: Seydlitz

selenak - 2020-03-04 17:51 (UTC) - Expand

Definitely not at the start. Fritz has to win some and lose some first! Also, if it's after Joseph has married Isabella, it's after October 1760. (Though crack fic of course allows for dates to be mixed and mingled. Given that it's an AU anyway and Fritz got captured.)

Incidentally, whom you don't ask to rescue anyone, or to go on any kind of secret mission: Trenck.

Definitely not at the start. Fritz has to win some and lose some first!

Agreed! The stakes have to be high.

(Though crack fic of course allows for dates to be mixed and mingled. Given that it's an AU anyway and Fritz got captured.)

Yeah, we might have to mix and mingle some dates here.

Incidentally, whom you don't ask to rescue anyone, or to go on any kind of secret mission: Trenck.

Or entrust with anything ever, including his own head (like you said, it's a wonder he didn't lose it sooner!).

but the far greater part would be furious to be in this position and suspect Voltaire didn't care at all, he just wanted to collect glowing coals on Fritz' head!

Ha! And he wouldn't be entirely wrong, either!

Heinrich: Precisely. Also, he's not the only damsel I have in mind.

OMG. OMG. THIS IS THE BEST.

Heinrich would totally do this, too! This is why I love Heinrich, he hits all my buttons, "will rescue brother even though he considers him the worst" and "super competent" and "can be super cold = problematic fave" buttons. <3

Frederick the Great discussion post 12

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