So do we believe the Münchows, and then Blockmann, subverted those orders by having Fritz supplied with food for their own kitchen?
Wilhelmine says the nobility of Küstrin was busy supplying Fritz with illicit food and linen (linen that we worked into "Counterpoint" ;) ), and it is a feature of Young Fritz's life story that people feel sorry for him and try to mitigate the abuse, so...yes, I believe it.
(I really can't wait to find out whether Hahn gave Blanning any reason for this.)
Really on tenterhooks about this one! We'll know one way or the other in a few days, thanks to your kind self.
Maybe Blainville came to the scene after the printed diaries end, i.e. post Lehndorff's resignation as chamberlain
Googling seems to think he was hired at the royal court in 1768 and died in either 1781 or 1784. Lehndorff retired in 1775 (thank you, rheinsberg chronology), so it's entirely possible Blainville wasn't special enough to register until after Lehndorff left.
(told you Catt must have been blabbing all over the place by 1790)
That, or I was always skeptical Catt was the only one who knew, as he claimed. Still, I imagine it was supposed to be a secret, and I do imagine Catt blabbed sooner or later.
Alternative possibility, since 1739 is when Münchow starts his service as page and thus is able to listen to Fritz getting up in the middle of the night to go god knows where: Algarotti! Who showed up in that same year chez Fritz, am I right?
Algarotti did occur to me, but they had many fewer opportunities for sex in a palace between 1739 and 1746. He was there for a week at Rheinsberg in 1739, then he showed up probably some time in late June or early July, in time to accompany Fritz to Königsberg and then Bayreuth+Strasbourg+Wesel, during which time they may well have had sex, but not with the specific layout Münchow describes, and not long after the return (Sep 1740), Fritz is off to Silesia (Dec 1740), and Algarotti is off to Turin (Jan 1741). They then only had a few brief meetings, of maybe a day or so, in 1741, after which disillusionment had set in. By January 1742, Algarotti was in Dresden, and he wouldn't return until 1747.
So that leaves one week in 1739 and perhaps 3 months in 1740 during which Fritz and Algarotti would have been hanging out during a palace together. So while they may have had sex during those timeframes, I'd be surprised if it was all that frequent.
On the other hand, if you're a page and you've heard your king get up maybe 5 times in the middle of the night in a 3 month period, you might extrapolate and assume there are other cases you're not aware of. So maybe Algarotti alone could account for Münchow Jr.'s sense that Fritz was getting it on all the time between 1739-1746.
He's also only trying to refute the idea that Fritz *never* had sex after 1734, for which 5 counterexamples from 1740 would suffice. But he does make it sound like Fritz was getting laid regularly for 7 years. With EC, which I highly doubt. Young, innocent page just assumed it was his wife. :P
Münchow letters: come for the Katte execution, stay for the testimony to Fritz' post Katte sex life!
HEEE! I love it.
Gutenberg Nicolai: sadly this seems to be different edition with no Fritzian goodness to report. But don't add anything, I'm still working myself through the fascinating other stuff.
Haha, who me? No, I would have added something by now if I'd been able to get my hands on it. I was hoping you had. That said, I think I was able to turn up one or two of the multi-volume set, so perhaps later on I can upload them and you can let us know if any of them contain sensationalist gossip or Very Serious Scholarship for us. ;)
Re: Stop the Presses! Münchow vs Zimmermann: It's on!
That, or I was always skeptical Catt was the only one who knew, as he claimed. Still, I imagine it was supposed to be a secret, and I do imagine Catt blabbed sooner or later.
Let's say he waited until the war was over. But then it's le roi m'a dit time! Incidentally, I suspect one reason why Fritz told him (and who knows who else) were his survival instincts; subconsciously, he wanted someone to know and stop him.
He's also only trying to refute the idea that Fritz *never* had sex after 1734, for which 5 counterexamples from 1740 would suffice. But he does make it sound like Fritz was getting laid regularly for 7 years. With EC, which I highly doubt. Young, innocent page just assumed it was his wife. :P
Yes, that's what I was thinking as well, with the other story he's not telling clearly one where even a young innocent page didn't assume EC to be the other party. BTW, of course asking EC's surviving waiting women (if they were any) from ye early days would most likely have produced just the opposite result of what Münchow wanted to hear; it does occur to me that Zimmermann might have done that and hence developed his theory, but that's probably crediting Zimmermann with too much actual research.
There's also the fact that post- page stage, Münchow then served in the military, still within Fritz' larger proximity but surely not sleeping in the next room(s) anymore like pages do. So while he says 1739 - 1746 where he's able to swear to Fritz' habits, I'm assuming he's mostly thinking of 39 - 41,42, or whenever he graduated from page to soldier.
Incidentally, German wiki tells me that Lucchesini also has both published "Conversations with Fritz" and has kept a diary published in 1885. So, I doubt there's an explicit "Last night the King told me he had beeen getting it on with Glasow before the war, and then Glasow tried to kill him, though not because of the bad sex" statement in either, since that would have been quoted in the biographies already, but maybe something euphemistic yet vibey, like Fontanes's "relationship of the heart" phrasing about Heinrich's bfs.
Re: Stop the Presses! Münchow vs Zimmermann: It's on!
Incidentally, I suspect one reason why Fritz told him (and who knows who else) were his survival instincts; subconsciously, he wanted someone to know and stop him.
I agree. I always thought that no matter how close Fritz came to the brink, he'd pull back. He strikes me as a survivor.
. BTW, of course asking EC's surviving waiting women (if they were any) from ye early days would most likely have produced just the opposite result of what Münchow wanted to hear
Story of his life. I bet Münchow went and asked a family member to back him up on FW not giving Dad orders to make Fritz watch, and family member going, "Well..."
but that's probably crediting Zimmermann with too much actual research.
Hahaha, yes, agreed. :P
Can't wait to see what Lucchesini has in store for us. :D
By the way, one thing occurred to me re:
Another anecdote shall die with me, only two more knew about it, the former regimental medic from the 2nd Guard Pröbisch who is dead, and a valet; whether the valet is still alive, I don't know.
If "the story 'of another nature' that shall die with Münchow to which there were two other witnesses sounds more like they actually accidentally spotted Fritz having sexual interactions of some type with someone" is on the right track, then there would be one other person who who would know: the person he was having sexual interactions with. Unless said partner was one of the three named. Most likely candidate? The valet. Fredersdorf was valet at the right time, but no way does Münchow not know if he's dead and just refer to him as "a valet." Not batman Trenck, he'd talk. Page Marwitz?
Also, one thing that's curious: one of those three "witnesses" is a medic. Is that relevant? Perhaps it wasn't the sex act they witnessed, but something medical related to sex?
"OMG I just discovered Marwitz has an STD, start checking and/or treating me immediately!!" Medic treats him, page in antechamber overhears? Or has to act as assistant during treatment? Everyone is sworn to secrecy? Fritz writes letter to Heinrich warning him?
?
Thoughts?
ETA: minor chronological difficulties with the Marwitz identification. As you noted, Münchow's not going to be page in the antechamber in 1746. Of course, he could have found out some other way, since he was still associating with Fritz at the time. However, the fact that it's a regimental medic makes me think Fritz was in the field at the time, which I think would have been 4 months before the letter to Heinrich (December 1745 vs April 1746). Unless he waited 4 months to warn his brother...
But I think the scenario is still possible: Fritz getting treated for a possible STD or other condition that leads Münchow to believe he's still sexually active in the 1740s.
Algarotti was suspected of having STDs in the early 1740s, but I don't think he counts as "a valet that Münchow doesn't know if he's alive or dead." On the other hand, we can't assume Münchow has full and complete information, either. He never does, lol. Maybe Fritz was having sex with Algarotti, had a scare, said something that led Münchow to believe it was a "valet" was having sex with. (Algarotti was named chamberlain/gentleman of the bedchamber, albeit without valet duties, but this wasn't until 1747, at which point I doubt very much he and Fritz were still getting it on.)
Edited 2020-02-25 19:14 (UTC)
Re: Stop the Presses! Münchow vs Zimmermann: It's on!
But I think the scenario is still possible: Fritz getting treated for a possible STD or other condition that leads Münchow to believe he's still sexually active in the 1740s.
Oh absolutely. I also do like the Marwitz idea. As to why Fritz wouldn't have said anything earlier during those four months, well, maybe Heinrich didn't fall in love much more earlier? I mean, if Fritz isn't completely inventing stuff in his first letter when he's still mostly teasing, all this sighing about being separated sounds as if young Marwitz and Heinrich are apart for the first time since they are an item. Teenage love and all. So let's say they fell for each other during the later half of the Berlin carnival season when the entire royal family, and thus also Fritz and his pages, are in Berlin, then (and this we know) carnival is over, Fritz goes back to Potsdam, Heinrich is down with a cold and fever and remains in Berlin, and that's when Fritz starts his series of letters. Maybe he saw the whole thing first as a typical carnival flirtation and assumed that would be that, but now Marwitz seems to have to set his sights on having something more long term with Heinrich, and that's irritating Fritz for a whole variety of reason, STD and having had sexual contact with the guy being but one.
I really don't see Münchow calling Algarotti a valet. When he's regretting Voltaire being a bad man but plaintively asks whether it's really sure that V wrote the trashy memoirs, he then says he also hoped D'Argens would write a proper Fritz bio. It does sound as if he's read them both as writers. I think Algarotti would be a man of letters to him. (BTW, one detail I'm intrigued by is that he says he'd always thought the trashy pamphlet and memoirs had to be from someone other than Voltaire because there was information in it that Voltaire couldn't have known about, that's why he, Münchow, always suspected someone else. Now, I really doubt this refers to anything re: Katte, because Münchow of all the people would know that FW wasn't in Küstrin, etc. So it's more likely one of the allegations about Fritz' sex life.
Re: Stop the Presses! Münchow vs Zimmermann: It's on!
I really don't see Münchow calling Algarotti a valet.
Agreed, *if* he knows it's Algarotti. But say he got his information third-hand, and all he's heard is "chamberlain." He might 50 years later remember it as "valet." That's what I meant by "we can't assume Münchow has full and complete information."
But I think Marwitz is more likely than Algarotti, for something involving a valet and a regimental field medic.
he says he'd always thought the trashy pamphlet and memoirs
Hmm, he says this about both the pamphlet and the memoirs? I should look at them more closely, with this in mind.
Münchow of all the people would know that FW wasn't in Küstrin
Ha! He'd better. That's some serious senility if not! (I mean, Koser doesn't think Münchow knows what year he was born or whether he was the youngest son of his father, which...)
Re: Stop the Presses! Münchow vs Zimmermann: It's on!
You guys are hilarious sensationalistic scholars :D
EC: Oh! Well, I mean, the King might have come to see me! Did he ask you to ask me? I certainly wouldn't go against anything the King said! There is a passageway that goes to my room, it's true. It also goes to his valet, and certain special guests of the King. Mr. Fredersdorf does so much of the King's business, he sees him very often. Yes, sometimes in the middle of the night when the King can't sleep, you know that's when he does much of his work. Oh, now, why are you looking skeptical? I am totally willing to cover for him, I mean, imply that the King is totally het, I mean -- well, we have just been unlucky in not having any children!
Re: Stop the Presses! Münchow vs Zimmermann: It's on!
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Re: Stop the Presses! Münchow vs Zimmermann: It's on!
Wilhelmine says the nobility of Küstrin was busy supplying Fritz with illicit food and linen (linen that we worked into "Counterpoint" ;) ), and it is a feature of Young Fritz's life story that people feel sorry for him and try to mitigate the abuse, so...yes, I believe it.
(I really can't wait to find out whether Hahn gave Blanning any reason for this.)
Really on tenterhooks about this one! We'll know one way or the other in a few days, thanks to your kind self.
Maybe Blainville came to the scene after the printed diaries end, i.e. post Lehndorff's resignation as chamberlain
Googling seems to think he was hired at the royal court in 1768 and died in either 1781 or 1784. Lehndorff retired in 1775 (thank you,
(told you Catt must have been blabbing all over the place by 1790)
That, or I was always skeptical Catt was the only one who knew, as he claimed. Still, I imagine it was supposed to be a secret, and I do imagine Catt blabbed sooner or later.
Alternative possibility, since 1739 is when Münchow starts his service as page and thus is able to listen to Fritz getting up in the middle of the night to go god knows where: Algarotti! Who showed up in that same year chez Fritz, am I right?
Algarotti did occur to me, but they had many fewer opportunities for sex in a palace between 1739 and 1746. He was there for a week at Rheinsberg in 1739, then he showed up probably some time in late June or early July, in time to accompany Fritz to Königsberg and then Bayreuth+Strasbourg+Wesel, during which time they may well have had sex, but not with the specific layout Münchow describes, and not long after the return (Sep 1740), Fritz is off to Silesia (Dec 1740), and Algarotti is off to Turin (Jan 1741). They then only had a few brief meetings, of maybe a day or so, in 1741, after which disillusionment had set in. By January 1742, Algarotti was in Dresden, and he wouldn't return until 1747.
So that leaves one week in 1739 and perhaps 3 months in 1740 during which Fritz and Algarotti would have been hanging out during a palace together. So while they may have had sex during those timeframes, I'd be surprised if it was all that frequent.
On the other hand, if you're a page and you've heard your king get up maybe 5 times in the middle of the night in a 3 month period, you might extrapolate and assume there are other cases you're not aware of. So maybe Algarotti alone could account for Münchow Jr.'s sense that Fritz was getting it on all the time between 1739-1746.
He's also only trying to refute the idea that Fritz *never* had sex after 1734, for which 5 counterexamples from 1740 would suffice. But he does make it sound like Fritz was getting laid regularly for 7 years. With EC, which I highly doubt. Young, innocent page just assumed it was his wife. :P
Münchow letters: come for the Katte execution, stay for the testimony to Fritz' post Katte sex life!
HEEE! I love it.
Gutenberg Nicolai: sadly this seems to be different edition with no Fritzian goodness to report. But don't add anything, I'm still working myself through the fascinating other stuff.
Haha, who me? No, I would have added something by now if I'd been able to get my hands on it. I was hoping you had. That said, I think I was able to turn up one or two of the multi-volume set, so perhaps later on I can upload them and you can let us know if any of them contain sensationalist gossip or Very Serious Scholarship for us. ;)
Re: Stop the Presses! Münchow vs Zimmermann: It's on!
Let's say he waited until the war was over. But then it's le roi m'a dit time! Incidentally, I suspect one reason why Fritz told him (and who knows who else) were his survival instincts; subconsciously, he wanted someone to know and stop him.
He's also only trying to refute the idea that Fritz *never* had sex after 1734, for which 5 counterexamples from 1740 would suffice. But he does make it sound like Fritz was getting laid regularly for 7 years. With EC, which I highly doubt. Young, innocent page just assumed it was his wife. :P
Yes, that's what I was thinking as well, with the other story he's not telling clearly one where even a young innocent page didn't assume EC to be the other party. BTW, of course asking EC's surviving waiting women (if they were any) from ye early days would most likely have produced just the opposite result of what Münchow wanted to hear; it does occur to me that Zimmermann might have done that and hence developed his theory, but that's probably crediting Zimmermann with too much actual research.
There's also the fact that post- page stage, Münchow then served in the military, still within Fritz' larger proximity but surely not sleeping in the next room(s) anymore like pages do. So while he says 1739 - 1746 where he's able to swear to Fritz' habits, I'm assuming he's mostly thinking of 39 - 41,42, or whenever he graduated from page to soldier.
Incidentally, German wiki tells me that Lucchesini also has both published "Conversations with Fritz" and has kept a diary published in 1885. So, I doubt there's an explicit "Last night the King told me he had beeen getting it on with Glasow before the war, and then Glasow tried to kill him, though not because of the bad sex" statement in either, since that would have been quoted in the biographies already, but maybe something euphemistic yet vibey, like Fontanes's "relationship of the heart" phrasing about Heinrich's bfs.
Re: Stop the Presses! Münchow vs Zimmermann: It's on!
Incidentally, I suspect one reason why Fritz told him (and who knows who else) were his survival instincts; subconsciously, he wanted someone to know and stop him.
I agree. I always thought that no matter how close Fritz came to the brink, he'd pull back. He strikes me as a survivor.
. BTW, of course asking EC's surviving waiting women (if they were any) from ye early days would most likely have produced just the opposite result of what Münchow wanted to hear
Story of his life. I bet Münchow went and asked a family member to back him up on FW not giving Dad orders to make Fritz watch, and family member going, "Well..."
but that's probably crediting Zimmermann with too much actual research.
Hahaha, yes, agreed. :P
Can't wait to see what Lucchesini has in store for us. :D
By the way, one thing occurred to me re:
Another anecdote shall die with me, only two more knew about it, the former regimental medic from the 2nd Guard Pröbisch who is dead, and a valet; whether the valet is still alive, I don't know.
If "the story 'of another nature' that shall die with Münchow to which there were two other witnesses sounds more like they actually accidentally spotted Fritz having sexual interactions of some type with someone" is on the right track, then there would be one other person who who would know: the person he was having sexual interactions with. Unless said partner was one of the three named. Most likely candidate? The valet. Fredersdorf was valet at the right time, but no way does Münchow not know if he's dead and just refer to him as "a valet." Not batman Trenck, he'd talk. Page Marwitz?
Also, one thing that's curious: one of those three "witnesses" is a medic. Is that relevant? Perhaps it wasn't the sex act they witnessed, but something medical related to sex?
"OMG I just discovered Marwitz has an STD, start checking and/or treating me immediately!!" Medic treats him, page in antechamber overhears? Or has to act as assistant during treatment? Everyone is sworn to secrecy? Fritz writes letter to Heinrich warning him?
?
Thoughts?
ETA: minor chronological difficulties with the Marwitz identification. As you noted, Münchow's not going to be page in the antechamber in 1746. Of course, he could have found out some other way, since he was still associating with Fritz at the time. However, the fact that it's a regimental medic makes me think Fritz was in the field at the time, which I think would have been 4 months before the letter to Heinrich (December 1745 vs April 1746). Unless he waited 4 months to warn his brother...
But I think the scenario is still possible: Fritz getting treated for a possible STD or other condition that leads Münchow to believe he's still sexually active in the 1740s.
Algarotti was suspected of having STDs in the early 1740s, but I don't think he counts as "a valet that Münchow doesn't know if he's alive or dead." On the other hand, we can't assume Münchow has full and complete information, either. He never does, lol. Maybe Fritz was having sex with Algarotti, had a scare, said something that led Münchow to believe it was a "valet" was having sex with. (Algarotti was named chamberlain/gentleman of the bedchamber, albeit without valet duties, but this wasn't until 1747, at which point I doubt very much he and Fritz were still getting it on.)
Re: Stop the Presses! Münchow vs Zimmermann: It's on!
Oh absolutely. I also do like the Marwitz idea. As to why Fritz wouldn't have said anything earlier during those four months, well, maybe Heinrich didn't fall in love much more earlier? I mean, if Fritz isn't completely inventing stuff in his first letter when he's still mostly teasing, all this sighing about being separated sounds as if young Marwitz and Heinrich are apart for the first time since they are an item. Teenage love and all. So let's say they fell for each other during the later half of the Berlin carnival season when the entire royal family, and thus also Fritz and his pages, are in Berlin, then (and this we know) carnival is over, Fritz goes back to Potsdam, Heinrich is down with a cold and fever and remains in Berlin, and that's when Fritz starts his series of letters. Maybe he saw the whole thing first as a typical carnival flirtation and assumed that would be that, but now Marwitz seems to have to set his sights on having something more long term with Heinrich, and that's irritating Fritz for a whole variety of reason, STD and having had sexual contact with the guy being but one.
I really don't see Münchow calling Algarotti a valet. When he's regretting Voltaire being a bad man but plaintively asks whether it's really sure that V wrote the trashy memoirs, he then says he also hoped D'Argens would write a proper Fritz bio. It does sound as if he's read them both as writers. I think Algarotti would be a man of letters to him. (BTW, one detail I'm intrigued by is that he says he'd always thought the trashy pamphlet and memoirs had to be from someone other than Voltaire because there was information in it that Voltaire couldn't have known about, that's why he, Münchow, always suspected someone else. Now, I really doubt this refers to anything re: Katte, because Münchow of all the people would know that FW wasn't in Küstrin, etc. So it's more likely one of the allegations about Fritz' sex life.
Re: Stop the Presses! Münchow vs Zimmermann: It's on!
Agreed, *if* he knows it's Algarotti. But say he got his information third-hand, and all he's heard is "chamberlain." He might 50 years later remember it as "valet." That's what I meant by "we can't assume Münchow has full and complete information."
But I think Marwitz is more likely than Algarotti, for something involving a valet and a regimental field medic.
he says he'd always thought the trashy pamphlet and memoirs
Hmm, he says this about both the pamphlet and the memoirs? I should look at them more closely, with this in mind.
Münchow of all the people would know that FW wasn't in Küstrin
Ha! He'd better. That's some serious senility if not! (I mean, Koser doesn't think Münchow knows what year he was born or whether he was the youngest son of his father, which...)
Re: Stop the Presses! Münchow vs Zimmermann: It's on!
EC: Oh! Well, I mean, the King might have come to see me! Did he ask you to ask me? I certainly wouldn't go against anything the King said! There is a passageway that goes to my room, it's true. It also goes to his valet, and certain special guests of the King. Mr. Fredersdorf does so much of the King's business, he sees him very often. Yes, sometimes in the middle of the night when the King can't sleep, you know that's when he does much of his work. Oh, now, why are you looking skeptical? I am totally willing to cover for him, I mean, imply that the King is totally het, I mean -- well, we have just been unlucky in not having any children!
Re: Stop the Presses! Münchow vs Zimmermann: It's on!
Re: Stop the Presses! Münchow vs Zimmermann: It's on!