Weinen is literally weeping with tears. Lamenting would be klagen.
OMGGGG. Hurt/comfort is canon. :'-(((
With a pronounced interest in mathematics and mechanics, which the teacher of the Prince, Senning, made even more keen through his classes, were connected budding artistic abilities;
So he's saying Fritz's teacher, Senning, also taught Katte. Thank you for clarifying the relationships among the individuals there.
Okay, so that's where the "Katte and Fritz shared private lessons on mathematics and mechanics" in Wikipedia (and Zeithain) comes from. Now I just need to figure out where Koser got *his* info from. I'm guessing it's the other species facti, the one I don't have, because the note at the end says that's where most of the Katte info comes from, the two species facti. And I don't see anything about mechanics or sharing lessons in this one.
I'm no longer surprised Förster thought poor Protestant Fritz was trying to escape an Evil Catholic plot, too,
Yes, that makes sense now! There are multiple marriage AU plots going on. It makes sense: if Fritz can't escape his father through one marriage, he'll try another marriage. All he really wants is not to be horrifically abused.
And that was too much to ask. :(
I let Fritz chastize himself for not thinking of marrying an archduchess while Katte was still alive. Which he evidently did.
I was thinking of that! But if Katte really is lying, it may not be AU after all: maybe Fritz got the idea *from* Katte.
But that seems like a surprisingly risky gamble from Katte, if so. (b) and (c) seem more likely to me. Especially (c), if Fritz and Katte can't keep their story straight under interrogation. The most straightforward explanation to me is:
Fritz: *tells Katte about G & S's marriage plan* Katte: *uses the Evil Plot to justify helping Fritz escape* FW: *confronts Fritz with his lie* Fritz: Shit! Dad's never gonna buy that G & S were behind this. "I'm sure there was some mistake! Ask Katte again!" Fritz: *sending Katte frantic telepathic signals* Katte: *oblivious* No, seriously, that's what I was told. Don't you want me to get your son away from evil Catholic plots? *bats eyelashes* FW: The only people not lying to me here are G & S. Off with Fritz and Katte's heads!
Now, I haven't seen the documentary evidence for this supposed accusation by Katte, but I'm trying to get my hands on Hinrichs' book, which might have some of the interrogation material. (Since shipping to the US is expensive, I'm going to try seeing if I can ILL it. Will report back if I'm successful.)
Possible (d) idea:
d) Katte was trying to talk Fritz into staying, and Fritz lied to him to get more support for his plan.
That would be consistent with the account given above, where Katte innocently maintains what he believes to be true and Fritz is frantically denying it.
Oh, one thing I forgot to mention in my Koser write-up: apparently one argument Fritz used with Katte to argue that escaping was safe was that Grandpa F1 ran away in 1679 when *he* was crown prince, and *he* didn't get in trouble! And then apparently Vienna brought this up with FW when trying to intervene for Fritz.
FW apparently liked that argument about as well as he liked the G & S Catholic plot accusation.
FW: That's completely different! Dad was worried about being poisoned! And he was careful not to desert! My father was nothing like that worst of all possible sons I had to lock up in Küstrin. And DON'T tell me the Emperor mediated with my father and grandfather and it worked out really well. I rule alone!
Quick overview, trying not to repeat anything Mildred already quoted/said:
Is good with the citation, not in the text but at the end of it, where he lists his sources for each chapter. Very late 19th century (German edition), empathic language, bird metaphors - Fritz is the soaring eagle, FW is the iron rock on which the eagle‘s nest has been build - and national clichés, but with all that, not as obnoxious as Preuss. (Though when I read him agreeing with Fritz (in the history of Brandenburg) that the century of diplomacy was insane and yay honest war, I‘m thinking „Koser, this kind of attitude will get us into WWI within your life time, thanks a lot“.)
New information:
Katte was threatened with physical torture through all his interrogations until Grumbkow on September 12th said they couldn‘t keep this up and trial time already. (Torture, for what it‘s worth, was illegal as a method to interrogate officers. Punishing them with glowing pliers was okay, though, ask the Potsdam Giants who revolted earlier that year.)
(Sidenote: actually, torture in the HRE, of which Prussia was a part, could be used as a method of interrogation only under circumstances specified in the Carolinga, the law as laid down by Charles V., and officers belonging to the nobility who had already admitted the key accusation definitely didn‘t fall into it. So what FW‘s interrogators were threatening Katte with was illegal, which Grumbkow would have known, and given this affair was making international waves already, no wonder he at some point said, okay, moving on now. Still, we should keep in mind that every single confession came under the threat of torture.)
Koser describes Katte as „the weak man“ (because he keeps giving into Fritz despite knowing better).
Wilhelmine‘s memoirs are spiteful and unloving and do her discredit; she comes off better in everyone else‘s descriptions than her own, thinks Koser. (Since his final chapter provides us with how FW and Fritz had a happy ending with each other after all, he also struggles a bit with Fritz‘ comments on FW‘s various almost-deaths to Wilhelmine and finds them „unloving“ and chilling as well, but says that some wounds went too deep. And then goes on quoting all the FW positive stuff from Fritz.
Fritz the heterosexual: Koser lists every lady rumor ever attached to him, from Orzelska via Doris to Madame de Wreech in the later Küstrin days, with some other ladies thrown in.
„The King thinks he has taken Katte from me, but I see him right here“, says a hallucinating Fritz the day after Katte‘s execution, according to Koser.
A lot of quotes from the letters to Grumbkow, including one from early 1732 (!) where Fritz tells Grumbkow the Empress would to better to give him her daughter (MT) instead of her niece (EC). No MT for you, Fritz, believe me, you were both happier that way. Though whether Europe was, that‘s another question. Anyway, that he keeps bringing up this MT marriage plan while the Imperial party is all „naaaaah, let’s not“ repeatedly is hilarious in the face of all the „evil Catholic plot!“ allegations. Btw, Koser assures us our hero naturally had nothing but contempt for the Catholic religion (true) and was a true Protestant in his heart, Deist leanings not withstanding. If the Emperor had given him his daughter he‘d still have NEVER converted! (Well...)
Koser does show Fritz developing religious opinions, in as much as letters document them, in detail and with quotes, so: very useful if you need to reference them.
Another Grumbkow letter quote from early 1732 has Fritz saying he‘ll never accept a wife except „through the hands of the Margravine of Bayreuth“. I can almost hear Grumbkow sighing „what did I say about you two needing boundaries?“
Koser tries to explain why FW, if he was so anti French literature etc. for his son later, had him first raised by a governess who never learned a word of German in her life (Madame de Rouccoulles) and then by a French teacher (Duhan). Well, says Koser, FW himself was raised by Madame de R., evidently still had affection for her and knew he was able to see through all things French regardless and reject them, so he expected the same to happen with Fritz. In general, he wanted his oldest to be exactly like him so they could be bffs. (Koser also quoting instruction to teachers to threaten Fritz only with SD, not with FW, because little Fritz must never fear his father, only love him.) Alas, etc. Incidentally, I find it interesting that favourite son AW wasn‘t a bit like FW. I mean, sure, he liked playing with soldiers and didn‘t seek out books before Big Bro inspired him to. But: cheerfully tempered, seeing other people‘s pov, playing the role of family mediator, having guilt free extramarital sex left, right and center? Being a lukewarm Christian at best (while Dad was alive)? Considering limiting royal power a good thing? Lack of vindictiveness? If he didn‘t show his own share of family stubbornness in the last year of his life by refusing to submit and accept blame, one could almost call him a cuckoo in the Hohenzollern nest.
Back to Fritz and the French. Koser, not wrongly, sees Fritz‘ striving to excell in all things French and Fritz‘ later military actions not as contradicting themselves but as related and quotes Voltaire who post Roßbach apparantly remarked that Fritz had finally managed to fulfill all his desires re: Frenchness at the same time - impress the French, mock the French, beat the French.
Koser: so, the EC marriage never did work out as intended, though he learned to appreciate her loyalty and docileness. Also he was less of a playboy thereafter, because Koser’s Fritz is really into women. And look! „He, too, used marriage to tame his brothers in their headstrong ways“ - actually he writes „in ihrer stürmischen Art“, literally „in their stormy ways“, but I don‘t think you say that in English. Anyway, what‘s with the plural of „brothers“, Koser? The AW/Louise marriage had been arranged by FW already, even if the event itself took place in Fritz‘ reign. Ferdinand got to marry by choice, whom and when he wanted. There was just one brother whom Fritz used marriage on to „tame“ him. BTW otherwise Heinrich and Ferdinand are Sirs not appearing in this book, not surprisingly given its time frame, except in the plural when Koser says SD from ca. 1738 onwards instructed her younger sons to treat Big Bro as the future King. (I take it to mean „no more kicking under the table, you lot!“) AW gets mentioned only to say FW liked him and in the autumn of 1731 was seriously considering changing the order of succession, though as Koser points out, he‘d have needed permission from MT‘s Dad for that, this falling under the Reichsgesetz for peers of the realm. Except, of course, if Fritz had resigned his rights of his own volition.
Since I don‘t believe I‘ve said it elsewhere: Fritz‘ reply to the question „does he believe himself to be worthy of the crown of Prussia“ - „He cannot be his own judge“ - Er könne sein eigener Richter nicht sein - is, as examples of masterful replies under extreme pressure are concerned, on a level with Jeanne d‘Arc‘s reply in her trial whether she believes herself to be a in a state of grace. („If I am not, may God help me to it, if I am, may God keep me there“.) In both cases, it‘s a trick question to which a. Yes or No reply would be equally self damaging, but in both cases, the accused finds a way to outwit their interrogators with the answer.
ETA: one more Koser thing: at one point he mentions Fassmann and Gundling. Fassmann is just mentioned as slimy, but Gundling gets to be the "horrible caricature of a scholar" who is so disgusting that even FW is surely tired of him by now and has everything FW did to him coming. Ugh. Yet very representative for 19th century and early 20 century Prussian historians.
At the same time, Koser repeatedly talks of FW's "moral seriousness" and high moral character. I mean, he also thinks FW went too far with Fritz and hurt him when he didn't need to, but I get the impression this is because he likes Fritz, future hero of the nation. Because whatever abuse FW deals out to non-Fritz people like Doris Ritter (gets mentioned to confirm Fritz' heterosexuality as his mistress, no ambiguity about it, who gets to feel the anger of the King) or Gundling is okay, no, Gundling even had it coming. Ugh. I think I need to read some Heinrich Mann again. This is exactly the kind of mentality he mercilessly satirized and attacked in "Der Untertan".
I knew that Katte was threatened with torture and that Grumbkow was the one who talked FW out of it, but nothing about the context of torture, thank you so much.
Katte was threatened with physical torture through all his interrogations until Grumbkow on September 12th
Worth noting that date means 5 out of his 6 interrogations and both his write-ups. So yes, like you said, the threat of torture is informing every word he says.
Koser describes Katte as „the weak man“ (because he keeps giving into Fritz despite knowing better).
OMFG. I thought I saw something like that. Thanks for confirming.
Wilhelmine‘s memoirs are spiteful and unloving and do her discredit
OMFG, again.
And then goes on quoting all the FW positive stuff from Fritz.
Of course he does. Sigh.
Fritz the heterosexual: Koser lists every lady rumor ever attached to him, from Orzelska via Doris to Madame de Wreech in the later Küstrin days, with some other ladies thrown in.
Oh, that's where Lavisse gets it from! Even knowing about all of Fritz's interactions with females in his youth, I remember being rather astonished by the sheer amount of playboyness in Lavisse's account, as well as the fact that Lavisse attributes most of his 1720s debt-running-up, not to his need for books or music or even French clothes, but mistresses.
Anyway, that he keeps bringing up this MT marriage plan while the Imperial party is all „naaaaah, let’s not“ repeatedly is hilarious in the face of all the „evil Catholic plot!“ allegations.
Hahahaaa.
has Fritz saying he‘ll never accept a wife except „through the hands of the Margravine of Bayreuth“. I can almost hear Grumbkow sighing „what did I say about you two needing boundaries?“
Oh, wow. These two really are the scandal that almost happened!
Alas, etc. Incidentally, I find it interesting that favourite son AW wasn‘t a bit like FW.
Seriously. I was reading a few more pages of Blanning today, and got to the part where he said AW was turning out to be an old chip off the block, and having your observation here in mind, I was like, "Well..."
FW and Fritz both got along better with people who *weren't* like them, even when *cough* they developed love-hate relationships with people who were.
Headcanon: Voltaire and AW were switched at birth. :P
Fritz had finally managed to fulfill all his desires re: Frenchness at the same time - impress the French, mock the French, beat the French.
Good job checking off your bucket list, I guess? Maybe you should have focused more on the travel bucket list: visit Paris, visit Venice, visit Rome, visit London...
That's an excellent quote, though.
Also he was less of a playboy thereafter, because Koser’s Fritz is really into women. And look! „He, too, used marriage to tame his brothers in their headstrong ways“
OMG. That is wrong in so many ways, as you point out.
Btw, Lavisse, who doesn't like Fritz or FW (he's a Frenchman writing twenty years in the 1890s), or Grumbkow or Seckendorff (well...), says that in all the marriage intrigues, the only "interesting" character is EC.
I really should look up what word he used in French, because it seems to me that if you write two sentences about EC in the midst of your entire book about Fritz and FW (and you're planning a second book on Fritz), she may be a lot of things that you approve of that the Hohenzollerns aren't, but "interesting" doesn't seem like one. The only sympathetic character to you, maybe. But try writing a book about her before you tell me you find her the only interesting one.
instructed her younger sons to treat Big Bro as the future King. (I take it to mean „no more kicking under the table, you lot!“)
LOLOL
Heinrich: Watch me kick him under the table for the rest of my goddamned life.
as examples of masterful replies under extreme pressure are concerned, on a level with Jeanne d‘Arc‘s reply in her trial whether she believes herself to be a in a state of grace.
Wonderful comparison. (I've always loved Jeanne <3, and that famous line especially.) It's worth noting for cahn that they're both the same age at their trials--approximately, anyway; Jeanne's birth date and year not being known. But she said she was about 19 at her trial, and Fritz was only 4 months shy of 19 at his. Of course, she was uneducated, which makes her even more impressive.
Lavisse, I might add, is also impressed with Fritz's answers, especially that one, but treats it as more evidence that this is future Frederick the Great, all self-interested calculation and no heart.
One quick question (related to Katte, of course): can you take a look at the note related to his arrest on pages 232-233 and tell me whether Koser *definitely* rules out Katte getting advance notice, or just says it's an unsubstantiated tradition? And does he say Katte spent the day in the country after getting leave, or do we just have a record of him asking for leave on the 15th but getting arrested on the morning of the 16th, with the possibility that he never had the chance to depart for the country?
Koser says: Glasenapp According to a protocol made on August 30 and the people in question testifying to this, Glasenapp got the order to arrest Kappe in the morning of August 16th between 6 and 7 am. The postmaster Borchward says the order arrived on August 15th at 9 pm in the evening, but the guy in charge overlooked the "Per Estaffette", i.e. the remark that this was an urgent matter to be handed out at once. Auditeur Rumpf testifies that Katte wasn't surprised (nicht konsternieret) when getting arrested by Pannewitz. Koser then says that while tradition gives several reasons why Katte didn't use the time to flee, his testimony at the interrogation of August 30 says he and Lt. Holtzendorff got leave to visit Malchow on August 15th. Koser does not say whether that was where they actually went. According to the interrogation from the 30th, Katte received Fritz' letter from Triersdorf on August 8th or 9th.
Banning: what do you want to bet he didn't bother to research anything related to AW beyond his casheering? I mean, Ziebura's biography was the first for centuries (since the 18th) as far as I know, because for all that the entire later Hohenzollern family was descended from AW, they were embarassed about this because they drew their acclaim from the Fritz connection - see also Willy the obnoxious claiming "no descendant of Frederick the Great will ever surrender" - and historians rehashing the fact their actual ancestor died in disgrace and in arguments with the great national hero was the last thing they wanted. Post WWII, of course, no one cared anymore for the longest time. So I bet Banning just thought "well, if FW liked him, he really must have been just like FW" without a) looking at the actual evidence, and b) considering that the traits Fritz shared with Dad ensured their distance, not their closeness.
Headcanon: Voltaire and AW were switched at birth. :P
Alas, I need reasonable dates even for my crack fic. How about: Grandpa F1 had a fling with Mme Arouet? Especially since her husband was odious anyway? Jeanne and Fritz: there's an encounter that would be fascinating. In some afterlife of legends. Would he or would he not resist quoting Voltaire's Pucelle? Whatever would she make of his attitude towards religion? Would she, as a female warrior, be an honorary man in his pov?
That's an excellent quote, though.
Voltaire always delivers.
Scandal that never happened: seriously, you have less incriminating quotes from the Borgias. There but for the grace of Fritz' orientation and Wilhelmine's possibly low sex drive go they.
Koser: Thank you, that was exactly my reading too. I was going crazy because Lavisse writes, "There is a legendary story about the arrest of Katte...Koser dispels this legend (Appendix, p. 232), but I cannot explain to myself that Katte could have been able to destroy papers at the time of his arrest, bei der Arrestirung, as the Kopenick trial stated," and unless my German is worse than I think, I don't see where he dispels it, just questions it.
Let's also remember that if Natzmer & co. *did* delay, neither they nor Katte are exactly going to spell this out during the trial. If anything, it reads to me like somebody was busy coming up with an explanation for why there was a delay between the order was received and when Katte was arrested, and not surprised when he was arrested.
Without having seen all the documents that came out of the trial, if we know that the order arrived in the evening of the 15th and the postmaster had to testify that as to why was an UTTERLY accidental delay in delivering it...it kind of sounds like there was an investigation as to why there was a delay?
Maybe it wasn't Natzmer delaying, maybe it was some sympathetic party at the post office, but it does sound like Katte had some warning and some time to destroy things. Also, word of mouth may have traveled ahead of the official written order.
Lavisse also says Katte "went to pass the day of the 18th of August in the country, through the permission of Field-marshal Natzmer...He was arrested the following morning." And again, unless my German was very much worse than I thought, it read to me like Koser said he got permission but didn't specify that he acted on it, and that he was arrested on the morning of the 16th, not the 19th.
But I'm also reading Lavisse in translation, so I should check the original.
Okay, the French version has the 15th, so at least that's a typo by the translator, not Lavisse. It does say, "Il était allé passer la journée du 15 août à la campagne," which reads to me like he left, but okay. And "Koser détruit cette légende," so aside from the date, Lavisse's reading of Koser and mine are different. All I see Koser saying is 1) that there was some kind of a delay, but the parties involved, not being suicidal, told FW it was accidental and definitely not the fault of the parties who were supposed to do the arresting. And 2) that Katte had sought permission to leave, which does imply that he might have been trying to get out of Berlin even before the arrest came.
Blanning: Has read Ziebura, though! Cites her bio of AW 4 times. (Blanning's bio is 2016.) I think he's just getting too distracted by superficial similarities and being influenced by what FW was thinking, i.e., "This kid is willing to do things my way! Which means he'll be just like me and I don't have to worry if he becomes king!" as opposed to "Being willing to do things someone else's way is a sign that he couldn't be more different than me. It's the kid that I want to strangle all the time that's like looking into a mirror."
"Without considering that the traits Fritz shared with Dad ensured their distance, not their closeness," definitely. I mean, even Voltaire said nature had never produced a father-son pair as completely unlike as Fritz and FW, and I had to "Well..." at him too. And he said this after being arrested at Frankfurt, too!
Alas, I need reasonable dates even for my crack fic
Wilhelmine didn't. :P Brother Voltaire indeed. But yes, if Voltaire's father thought he was a bastard anyway, why not a Hohenzollern bastard! :D F1 is obviously just as capable of producing insane terriers as FW1.
Would he or would he not resist quoting Voltaire's Pucelle?
Would not! Between religion, misogyny, Voltaire, and a general tendency to underestimate other people, I fear it would be a long time in the afterlife before Fritz appreciated her enough to promote her to honorary man.
That said, the reason I like developing my afterlife worldbuilding in my head, other than allowing all my faves to meet (and I did devote a bit of mental page-space to Fritz + Jeanne a while back), is that eternity is enough time for people to grow and change. And given how problematic all my faves are, growing and changing is something I'm highly interested in having them do. :P
Scandal that never happened: seriously, you have less incriminating quotes from the Borgias. There but for the grace of Fritz' orientation and Wilhelmine's possibly low sex drive go they.
Me: *imagines if Fritz were het/bi and they both had at least average sex drives*
Oh, yeah. Hard to see it not happening. Especially since while they might have bought into societal taboos, they at least both wouldn't have been dissuaded by religion. (Schulenberg: "But adultery! The commandments!" Young Fritz: "But as long as my future wife and I are both committing adultery, it's fair! Open marriage FTW.")
To reply to your ETA: ugh, ugh, and ugh. It is unfortunate that we have to read people like Preuss, Lavisse, and Koser, who all have very different but unpleasant takes on the FW as abuser and Frederick as the Great, in order to get at primary sources. I share your need for a palate cleanser.
Also, no wonder I had no idea about poor Gundling. Scholarship has failed me. Wikipedia is the way and the truth! :P
Btw, Koser assures us our hero naturally had nothing but contempt for the Catholic religion (true) and was a true Protestant in his heart, Deist leanings not withstanding. If the Emperor had given him his daughter he‘d still have NEVER converted! (Well...)
LOL! Okaaaay...
Another Grumbkow letter quote from early 1732 has Fritz saying he‘ll never accept a wife except „through the hands of the Margravine of Bayreuth“. I can almost hear Grumbkow sighing „what did I say about you two needing boundaries?“
Ahahaha oh wow. These two are my fave dysfunctional sibling relationship, but I can imagine poor Grumbkow being very frustrated.
Well, says Koser, FW himself was raised by Madame de R., evidently still had affection for her and knew he was able to see through all things French regardless and reject them, so he expected the same to happen with Fritz. In general, he wanted his oldest to be exactly like him so they could be bffs.
I mean... this kinda makes sense to me, or at least makes sense as something that FW might think, in the weird way his mind works.
Also he was less of a playboy thereafter, because Koser’s Fritz is really into women. And look! „He, too, used marriage to tame his brothers in their headstrong ways“
*blinks* --Um --
Koser says SD from ca. 1738 onwards instructed her younger sons to treat Big Bro as the future King. (I take it to mean „no more kicking under the table, you lot!“)
heeee!
Since I don‘t believe I‘ve said it elsewhere: Fritz‘ reply to the question „does he believe himself to be worthy of the crown of Prussia“ - „He cannot be his own judge“ - Er könne sein eigener Richter nicht sein - is, as examples of masterful replies under extreme pressure are concerned, on a level with Jeanne d‘Arc‘s reply in her trial whether she believes herself to be a in a state of grace. („If I am not, may God help me to it, if I am, may God keep me there“.) In both cases, it‘s a trick question to which a. Yes or No reply would be equally self damaging, but in both cases, the accused finds a way to outwit their interrogators with the answer.
This is really cool (and I didn't know the Jeanne d'Arc story either, I know the bare minimum about her but somehow my French education missed any details about her).
Jeanne D'Arc: are you familiar with Shaw's play? As far as fictional versions are concerned, this one is my favourite.
We do have the transcripts of her trial, which is a rare glimpse at a historical character in their darkest hours unfiltered by biographers, though much of the biographical Information about her comes from them. Said transcripts weren't available until the 19th century, however, which is why anyone writing about Jeanne before that was working from chronicles and legends. There's still no excuse for Schiller, in his play, making her fall in tragic love with an English noble and die on the battlefield instead of being burned at the stake, but that's F2 for you. (Verdi, who made an opera out of that Schiller play as well, removed the Englishman and made her fall in love with the Dauphin & later King, which isn't much better…)
Fifteen, twenty years ago, I would have said yes, but I haven't looked at Joan, fictional or nonfictional, since then, so today I have to say no. Those neural pathways got overwritten with new information. ;) She was one of my top favorites in high school, and I read as much fiction and nonfiction on her as I could get my hands on. Not Schiller, though, I'm pretty sure. Mark Twain, though, yes.
And I did read the transcripts, though again, fifteen years ago. They've been on my list to reread for a while now, when health permits. I will add Shaw on your recommendation.
Something that cahn read and I reread recently: Mary Gentle's Ash. (Cahn liveblogged her reactions reading it the first time, which delighted me and inspired me to do a reread.) It's not quite Joan of Arc fiction, but it's adjacent to it. Are you familiar with it?
Ash: it's on my "to read" list, I've only heard good things about it.
Shaw's play: to give you a taste, here's Shaw the Irish playwright making fun of the English while writing a play about the French national heroine, in a typical Shavian debate scene, between the Earl of Warwick, Bishop Cauchon and Warwick's chaplain Stogumber:
WARWICK. My lord: I wipe the slate as far as the witchcraft goes. None the less, we must burn the woman. CAUCHON. I cannot burn her. The Church cannot take life. And my first duty is to seek this girl's salvation. WARWICK. No doubt. But you do burn people occasionally. CAUCHON. No. When The Church cuts off an obstinate heretic as a dead branch from the tree of life, the heretic is handed over to the secular arm. The Church has no part in what the secular arm may see fit to do. WARWICK. Precisely. And I shall be the secular arm in this case. Well, my lord, hand over your dead branch; and I will see that the fire is ready for it. If you will answer for The Church's part, I will answer for the secular part. CAUCHON [with smouldering anger] I can answer for nothing. You great lords are too prone to treat The Church as a mere political convenience. WARWICK [smiling and propitiatory] Not in England, I assure you. CAUCHON. In England more than anywhere else. No, my lord: the soul of this village girl is of equal value with yours or your king's before the throne of God; and my first duty is to save it. I will not suffer your lordship to smile at me as if I were repeating a meaningless form of words, and it were well understood between us that I should betray the girl to you. I am no mere political bishop: my faith is to me what your honor is to you; and if there be a loophole through which this baptized child of God can creep to her salvation, I shall guide her to it. THE CHAPLAIN [rising in a fury] You are a traitor. CAUCHON [springing up] You lie, priest. [Trembling with rage] If you dare do what this woman has done--set your country above the holy Catholic Church--you shall go to the fire with her. THE CHAPLAIN. My lord: I--I went too far. I--[he sits down with a submissive gesture]. WARWICK [who has risen apprehensively] My lord: I apologize to you for the word used by Messire John de Stogumber. It does not mean in England what it does in France. In your language traitor means betrayer: one who is perfidious, treacherous, unfaithful, disloyal. In our country it means simply one who is not wholly devoted to English interests.
Man, that is some cutting social commentary. It reminds me of William Wallace getting convicted of treason, his defense supposedly (no, I haven't checked any primary sources on this and am going from ancient memories) being that he was Scottish and had never taken any oath to any English king and therefore could not have betrayed him, and the English brutally executing him on grounds of treason anyway.
I will have to check this out, then.
Ash is a pretty wild ride! I don't know your tastes well enough to know if it's your thing, but it's definitely not your standard historical fiction.
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Re: Katte! - The Koser take
OMGGGG. Hurt/comfort is canon. :'-(((
With a pronounced interest in mathematics and mechanics, which the teacher of the Prince, Senning, made even more keen through his classes, were connected budding artistic abilities;
So he's saying Fritz's teacher, Senning, also taught Katte. Thank you for clarifying the relationships among the individuals there.
Okay, so that's where the "Katte and Fritz shared private lessons on mathematics and mechanics" in Wikipedia (and Zeithain) comes from. Now I just need to figure out where Koser got *his* info from. I'm guessing it's the other species facti, the one I don't have, because the note at the end says that's where most of the Katte info comes from, the two species facti. And I don't see anything about mechanics or sharing lessons in this one.
I'm no longer surprised Förster thought poor Protestant Fritz was trying to escape an Evil Catholic plot, too,
Yes, that makes sense now! There are multiple marriage AU plots going on. It makes sense: if Fritz can't escape his father through one marriage, he'll try another marriage. All he really wants is not to be horrifically abused.
And that was too much to ask. :(
I let Fritz chastize himself for not thinking of marrying an archduchess while Katte was still alive. Which he evidently did.
I was thinking of that! But if Katte really is lying, it may not be AU after all: maybe Fritz got the idea *from* Katte.
But that seems like a surprisingly risky gamble from Katte, if so. (b) and (c) seem more likely to me. Especially (c), if Fritz and Katte can't keep their story straight under interrogation. The most straightforward explanation to me is:
Fritz: *tells Katte about G & S's marriage plan*
Katte: *uses the Evil Plot to justify helping Fritz escape*
FW: *confronts Fritz with his lie*
Fritz: Shit! Dad's never gonna buy that G & S were behind this. "I'm sure there was some mistake! Ask Katte again!"
Fritz: *sending Katte frantic telepathic signals*
Katte: *oblivious* No, seriously, that's what I was told. Don't you want me to get your son away from evil Catholic plots? *bats eyelashes*
FW: The only people not lying to me here are G & S. Off with Fritz and Katte's heads!
Now, I haven't seen the documentary evidence for this supposed accusation by Katte, but I'm trying to get my hands on Hinrichs' book, which might have some of the interrogation material. (Since shipping to the US is expensive, I'm going to try seeing if I can ILL it. Will report back if I'm successful.)
Possible (d) idea:
d) Katte was trying to talk Fritz into staying, and Fritz lied to him to get more support for his plan.
That would be consistent with the account given above, where Katte innocently maintains what he believes to be true and Fritz is frantically denying it.
Oh, one thing I forgot to mention in my Koser write-up: apparently one argument Fritz used with Katte to argue that escaping was safe was that Grandpa F1 ran away in 1679 when *he* was crown prince, and *he* didn't get in trouble! And then apparently Vienna brought this up with FW when trying to intervene for Fritz.
FW apparently liked that argument about as well as he liked the G & S Catholic plot accusation.
FW: That's completely different! Dad was worried about being poisoned! And he was careful not to desert! My father was nothing like that worst of all possible sons I had to lock up in Küstrin. And DON'T tell me the Emperor mediated with my father and grandfather and it worked out really well. I rule alone!
Re: Katte! - The Koser take
Quick overview, trying not to repeat anything Mildred already quoted/said:
Is good with the citation, not in the text but at the end of it, where he lists his sources for each chapter. Very late 19th century (German edition), empathic language, bird metaphors - Fritz is the soaring eagle, FW is the iron rock on which the eagle‘s nest has been build - and national clichés, but with all that, not as obnoxious as Preuss. (Though when I read him agreeing with Fritz (in the history of Brandenburg) that the century of diplomacy was insane and yay honest war, I‘m thinking „Koser, this kind of attitude will get us into WWI within your life time, thanks a lot“.)
New information:
Katte was threatened with physical torture through all his interrogations until Grumbkow on September 12th said they couldn‘t keep this up and trial time already. (Torture, for what it‘s worth, was illegal as a method to interrogate officers. Punishing them with glowing pliers was okay, though, ask the Potsdam Giants who revolted earlier that year.)
(Sidenote: actually, torture in the HRE, of which Prussia was a part, could be used as a method of interrogation only under circumstances specified in the Carolinga, the law as laid down by Charles V., and officers belonging to the nobility who had already admitted the key accusation definitely didn‘t fall into it. So what FW‘s interrogators were threatening Katte with was illegal, which Grumbkow would have known, and given this affair was making international waves already, no wonder he at some point said, okay, moving on now. Still, we should keep in mind that every single confession came under the threat of torture.)
Koser describes Katte as „the weak man“ (because he keeps giving into Fritz despite knowing better).
Wilhelmine‘s memoirs are spiteful and unloving and do her discredit; she comes off better in everyone else‘s descriptions than her own, thinks Koser. (Since his final chapter provides us with how FW and Fritz had a happy ending with each other after all, he also struggles a bit with Fritz‘ comments on FW‘s various almost-deaths to Wilhelmine and finds them „unloving“ and chilling as well, but says that some wounds went too deep. And then goes on quoting all the FW positive stuff from Fritz.
Fritz the heterosexual: Koser lists every lady rumor ever attached to him, from Orzelska via Doris to Madame de Wreech in the later Küstrin days, with some other ladies thrown in.
„The King thinks he has taken Katte from me, but I see him right here“, says a hallucinating Fritz the day after Katte‘s execution, according to Koser.
A lot of quotes from the letters to Grumbkow, including one from early 1732 (!) where Fritz tells Grumbkow the Empress would to better to give him her daughter (MT) instead of her niece (EC). No MT for you, Fritz, believe me, you were both happier that way. Though whether Europe was, that‘s another question. Anyway, that he keeps bringing up this MT marriage plan while the Imperial party is all „naaaaah, let’s not“ repeatedly is hilarious in the face of all the „evil Catholic plot!“ allegations. Btw, Koser assures us our hero naturally had nothing but contempt for the Catholic religion (true) and was a true Protestant in his heart, Deist leanings not withstanding. If the Emperor had given him his daughter he‘d still have NEVER converted! (Well...)
Koser does show Fritz developing religious opinions, in as much as letters document them, in detail and with quotes, so: very useful if you need to reference them.
Another Grumbkow letter quote from early 1732 has Fritz saying he‘ll never accept a wife except „through the hands of the Margravine of Bayreuth“. I can almost hear Grumbkow sighing „what did I say about you two needing boundaries?“
Koser tries to explain why FW, if he was so anti French literature etc. for his son later, had him first raised by a governess who never learned a word of German in her life (Madame de Rouccoulles) and then by a French teacher (Duhan). Well, says Koser, FW himself was raised by Madame de R., evidently still had affection for her and knew he was able to see through all things French regardless and reject them, so he expected the same to happen with Fritz. In general, he wanted his oldest to be exactly like him so they could be bffs. (Koser also quoting instruction to teachers to threaten Fritz only with SD, not with FW, because little Fritz must never fear his father, only love him.) Alas, etc. Incidentally, I find it interesting that favourite son AW wasn‘t a bit like FW. I mean, sure, he liked playing with soldiers and didn‘t seek out books before Big Bro inspired him to. But: cheerfully tempered, seeing other people‘s pov, playing the role of family mediator, having guilt free extramarital sex left, right and center? Being a lukewarm Christian at best (while Dad was alive)? Considering limiting royal power a good thing? Lack of vindictiveness? If he didn‘t show his own share of family stubbornness in the last year of his life by refusing to submit and accept blame, one could almost call him a cuckoo in the Hohenzollern nest.
Back to Fritz and the French. Koser, not wrongly, sees Fritz‘ striving to excell in all things French and Fritz‘ later military actions not as contradicting themselves but as related and quotes Voltaire who post Roßbach apparantly remarked that Fritz had finally managed to fulfill all his desires re: Frenchness at the same time - impress the French, mock the French, beat the French.
Koser: so, the EC marriage never did work out as intended, though he learned to appreciate her loyalty and docileness. Also he was less of a playboy thereafter, because Koser’s Fritz is really into women. And look! „He, too, used marriage to tame his brothers in their headstrong ways“ - actually he writes „in ihrer stürmischen Art“, literally „in their stormy ways“, but I don‘t think you say that in English. Anyway, what‘s with the plural of „brothers“, Koser? The AW/Louise marriage had been arranged by FW already, even if the event itself took place in Fritz‘ reign. Ferdinand got to marry by choice, whom and when he wanted. There was just one brother whom Fritz used marriage on to „tame“ him. BTW otherwise Heinrich and Ferdinand are Sirs not appearing in this book, not surprisingly given its time frame, except in the plural when Koser says SD from ca. 1738 onwards instructed her younger sons to treat Big Bro as the future King. (I take it to mean „no more kicking under the table, you lot!“) AW gets mentioned only to say FW liked him and in the autumn of 1731 was seriously considering changing the order of succession, though as Koser points out, he‘d have needed permission from MT‘s Dad for that, this falling under the Reichsgesetz for peers of the realm. Except, of course, if Fritz had resigned his rights of his own volition.
Since I don‘t believe I‘ve said it elsewhere: Fritz‘ reply to the question „does he believe himself to be worthy of the crown of Prussia“ - „He cannot be his own judge“ - Er könne sein eigener Richter nicht sein - is, as examples of masterful replies under extreme pressure are concerned, on a level with Jeanne d‘Arc‘s reply in her trial whether she believes herself to be a in a state of grace. („If I am not, may God help me to it, if I am, may God keep me there“.) In both cases, it‘s a trick question to which a. Yes or No reply would be equally self damaging, but in both cases, the accused finds a way to outwit their interrogators with the answer.
ETA: one more Koser thing: at one point he mentions Fassmann and Gundling. Fassmann is just mentioned as slimy, but Gundling gets to be the "horrible caricature of a scholar" who is so disgusting that even FW is surely tired of him by now and has everything FW did to him coming. Ugh. Yet very representative for 19th century and early 20 century Prussian historians.
At the same time, Koser repeatedly talks of FW's "moral seriousness" and high moral character. I mean, he also thinks FW went too far with Fritz and hurt him when he didn't need to, but I get the impression this is because he likes Fritz, future hero of the nation. Because whatever abuse FW deals out to non-Fritz people like Doris Ritter (gets mentioned to confirm Fritz' heterosexuality as his mistress, no ambiguity about it, who gets to feel the anger of the King) or Gundling is okay, no, Gundling even had it coming. Ugh. I think I need to read some Heinrich Mann again. This is exactly the kind of mentality he mercilessly satirized and attacked in "Der Untertan".
Re: Katte! - The Koser take
I knew that Katte was threatened with torture and that Grumbkow was the one who talked FW out of it, but nothing about the context of torture, thank you so much.
Katte was threatened with physical torture through all his interrogations until Grumbkow on September 12th
Worth noting that date means 5 out of his 6 interrogations and both his write-ups. So yes, like you said, the threat of torture is informing every word he says.
Koser describes Katte as „the weak man“ (because he keeps giving into Fritz despite knowing better).
OMFG. I thought I saw something like that. Thanks for confirming.
Wilhelmine‘s memoirs are spiteful and unloving and do her discredit
OMFG, again.
And then goes on quoting all the FW positive stuff from Fritz.
Of course he does. Sigh.
Fritz the heterosexual: Koser lists every lady rumor ever attached to him, from Orzelska via Doris to Madame de Wreech in the later Küstrin days, with some other ladies thrown in.
Oh, that's where Lavisse gets it from! Even knowing about all of Fritz's interactions with females in his youth, I remember being rather astonished by the sheer amount of playboyness in Lavisse's account, as well as the fact that Lavisse attributes most of his 1720s debt-running-up, not to his need for books or music or even French clothes, but mistresses.
Anyway, that he keeps bringing up this MT marriage plan while the Imperial party is all „naaaaah, let’s not“ repeatedly is hilarious in the face of all the „evil Catholic plot!“ allegations.
Hahahaaa.
has Fritz saying he‘ll never accept a wife except „through the hands of the Margravine of Bayreuth“. I can almost hear Grumbkow sighing „what did I say about you two needing boundaries?“
Oh, wow. These two really are the scandal that almost happened!
Alas, etc. Incidentally, I find it interesting that favourite son AW wasn‘t a bit like FW.
Seriously. I was reading a few more pages of Blanning today, and got to the part where he said AW was turning out to be an old chip off the block, and having your observation here in mind, I was like, "Well..."
FW and Fritz both got along better with people who *weren't* like them, even when *cough* they developed love-hate relationships with people who were.
Headcanon: Voltaire and AW were switched at birth. :P
Fritz had finally managed to fulfill all his desires re: Frenchness at the same time - impress the French, mock the French, beat the French.
Good job checking off your bucket list, I guess? Maybe you should have focused more on the travel bucket list: visit Paris, visit Venice, visit Rome, visit London...
That's an excellent quote, though.
Also he was less of a playboy thereafter, because Koser’s Fritz is really into women. And look! „He, too, used marriage to tame his brothers in their headstrong ways“
OMG. That is wrong in so many ways, as you point out.
Btw, Lavisse, who doesn't like Fritz or FW (he's a Frenchman writing twenty years in the 1890s), or Grumbkow or Seckendorff (well...), says that in all the marriage intrigues, the only "interesting" character is EC.
I really should look up what word he used in French, because it seems to me that if you write two sentences about EC in the midst of your entire book about Fritz and FW (and you're planning a second book on Fritz), she may be a lot of things that you approve of that the Hohenzollerns aren't, but "interesting" doesn't seem like one. The only sympathetic character to you, maybe. But try writing a book about her before you tell me you find her the only interesting one.
instructed her younger sons to treat Big Bro as the future King. (I take it to mean „no more kicking under the table, you lot!“)
LOLOL
Heinrich: Watch me kick him under the table for the rest of my goddamned life.
as examples of masterful replies under extreme pressure are concerned, on a level with Jeanne d‘Arc‘s reply in her trial whether she believes herself to be a in a state of grace.
Wonderful comparison. (I've always loved Jeanne <3, and that famous line especially.) It's worth noting for
Lavisse, I might add, is also impressed with Fritz's answers, especially that one, but treats it as more evidence that this is future Frederick the Great, all self-interested calculation and no heart.
One quick question (related to Katte, of course): can you take a look at the note related to his arrest on pages 232-233 and tell me whether Koser *definitely* rules out Katte getting advance notice, or just says it's an unsubstantiated tradition? And does he say Katte spent the day in the country after getting leave, or do we just have a record of him asking for leave on the 15th but getting arrested on the morning of the 16th, with the possibility that he never had the chance to depart for the country?
Re: Katte! - The Koser take
Banning: what do you want to bet he didn't bother to research anything related to AW beyond his casheering? I mean, Ziebura's biography was the first for centuries (since the 18th) as far as I know, because for all that the entire later Hohenzollern family was descended from AW, they were embarassed about this because they drew their acclaim from the Fritz connection - see also Willy the obnoxious claiming "no descendant of Frederick the Great will ever surrender" - and historians rehashing the fact their actual ancestor died in disgrace and in arguments with the great national hero was the last thing they wanted. Post WWII, of course, no one cared anymore for the longest time. So I bet Banning just thought "well, if FW liked him, he really must have been just like FW" without a) looking at the actual evidence, and b) considering that the traits Fritz shared with Dad ensured their distance, not their closeness.
Headcanon: Voltaire and AW were switched at birth. :P
Alas, I need reasonable dates even for my crack fic. How about: Grandpa F1 had a fling with Mme Arouet? Especially since her husband was odious anyway?
Jeanne and Fritz: there's an encounter that would be fascinating. In some afterlife of legends. Would he or would he not resist quoting Voltaire's Pucelle? Whatever would she make of his attitude towards religion? Would she, as a female warrior, be an honorary man in his pov?
That's an excellent quote, though.
Voltaire always delivers.
Scandal that never happened: seriously, you have less incriminating quotes from the Borgias. There but for the grace of Fritz' orientation and Wilhelmine's possibly low sex drive go they.
Re: Katte! - The Koser take
Let's also remember that if Natzmer & co. *did* delay, neither they nor Katte are exactly going to spell this out during the trial. If anything, it reads to me like somebody was busy coming up with an explanation for why there was a delay between the order was received and when Katte was arrested, and not surprised when he was arrested.
Without having seen all the documents that came out of the trial, if we know that the order arrived in the evening of the 15th and the postmaster had to testify that as to why was an UTTERLY accidental delay in delivering it...it kind of sounds like there was an investigation as to why there was a delay?
Maybe it wasn't Natzmer delaying, maybe it was some sympathetic party at the post office, but it does sound like Katte had some warning and some time to destroy things. Also, word of mouth may have traveled ahead of the official written order.
Lavisse also says Katte "went to pass the day of the 18th of August in the country, through the permission of Field-marshal Natzmer...He was arrested the following morning." And again, unless my German was very much worse than I thought, it read to me like Koser said he got permission but didn't specify that he acted on it, and that he was arrested on the morning of the 16th, not the 19th.
But I'm also reading Lavisse in translation, so I should check the original.
Okay, the French version has the 15th, so at least that's a typo by the translator, not Lavisse. It does say, "Il était allé passer la journée du 15 août à la campagne," which reads to me like he left, but okay. And "Koser détruit cette légende," so aside from the date, Lavisse's reading of Koser and mine are different. All I see Koser saying is 1) that there was some kind of a delay, but the parties involved, not being suicidal, told FW it was accidental and definitely not the fault of the parties who were supposed to do the arresting. And 2) that Katte had sought permission to leave, which does imply that he might have been trying to get out of Berlin even before the arrest came.
Blanning: Has read Ziebura, though! Cites her bio of AW 4 times. (Blanning's bio is 2016.) I think he's just getting too distracted by superficial similarities and being influenced by what FW was thinking, i.e., "This kid is willing to do things my way! Which means he'll be just like me and I don't have to worry if he becomes king!" as opposed to "Being willing to do things someone else's way is a sign that he couldn't be more different than me. It's the kid that I want to strangle all the time that's like looking into a mirror."
"Without considering that the traits Fritz shared with Dad ensured their distance, not their closeness," definitely. I mean, even Voltaire said nature had never produced a father-son pair as completely unlike as Fritz and FW, and I had to "Well..." at him too. And he said this after being arrested at Frankfurt, too!
Alas, I need reasonable dates even for my crack fic
Wilhelmine didn't. :P Brother Voltaire indeed. But yes, if Voltaire's father thought he was a bastard anyway, why not a Hohenzollern bastard! :D F1 is obviously just as capable of producing insane terriers as FW1.
Would he or would he not resist quoting Voltaire's Pucelle?
Would not! Between religion, misogyny, Voltaire, and a general tendency to underestimate other people, I fear it would be a long time in the afterlife before Fritz appreciated her enough to promote her to honorary man.
That said, the reason I like developing my afterlife worldbuilding in my head, other than allowing all my faves to meet (and I did devote a bit of mental page-space to Fritz + Jeanne a while back), is that eternity is enough time for people to grow and change. And given how problematic all my faves are, growing and changing is something I'm highly interested in having them do. :P
Scandal that never happened: seriously, you have less incriminating quotes from the Borgias. There but for the grace of Fritz' orientation and Wilhelmine's possibly low sex drive go they.
Me: *imagines if Fritz were het/bi and they both had at least average sex drives*
Oh, yeah. Hard to see it not happening. Especially since while they might have bought into societal taboos, they at least both wouldn't have been dissuaded by religion. (Schulenberg: "But adultery! The commandments!" Young Fritz: "But as long as my future wife and I are both committing adultery, it's fair! Open marriage FTW.")
Re: Katte! - The Koser take
Also, no wonder I had no idea about poor Gundling. Scholarship has failed me. Wikipedia is the way and the truth! :P
Re: Katte! - The Koser take
LOL! Okaaaay...
Another Grumbkow letter quote from early 1732 has Fritz saying he‘ll never accept a wife except „through the hands of the Margravine of Bayreuth“. I can almost hear Grumbkow sighing „what did I say about you two needing boundaries?“
Ahahaha oh wow. These two are my fave dysfunctional sibling relationship, but I can imagine poor Grumbkow being very frustrated.
Well, says Koser, FW himself was raised by Madame de R., evidently still had affection for her and knew he was able to see through all things French regardless and reject them, so he expected the same to happen with Fritz. In general, he wanted his oldest to be exactly like him so they could be bffs.
I mean... this kinda makes sense to me, or at least makes sense as something that FW might think, in the weird way his mind works.
Also he was less of a playboy thereafter, because Koser’s Fritz is really into women. And look! „He, too, used marriage to tame his brothers in their headstrong ways“
*blinks* --Um --
Koser says SD from ca. 1738 onwards instructed her younger sons to treat Big Bro as the future King. (I take it to mean „no more kicking under the table, you lot!“)
heeee!
Since I don‘t believe I‘ve said it elsewhere: Fritz‘ reply to the question „does he believe himself to be worthy of the crown of Prussia“ - „He cannot be his own judge“ - Er könne sein eigener Richter nicht sein - is, as examples of masterful replies under extreme pressure are concerned, on a level with Jeanne d‘Arc‘s reply in her trial whether she believes herself to be a in a state of grace. („If I am not, may God help me to it, if I am, may God keep me there“.) In both cases, it‘s a trick question to which a. Yes or No reply would be equally self damaging, but in both cases, the accused finds a way to outwit their interrogators with the answer.
This is really cool (and I didn't know the Jeanne d'Arc story either, I know the bare minimum about her but somehow my French education missed any details about her).
Tangentially: St. Joan
We do have the transcripts of her trial, which is a rare glimpse at a historical character in their darkest hours unfiltered by biographers, though much of the biographical Information about her comes from them. Said transcripts weren't available until the 19th century, however, which is why anyone writing about Jeanne before that was working from chronicles and legends. There's still no excuse for Schiller, in his play, making her fall in tragic love with an English noble and die on the battlefield instead of being burned at the stake, but that's F2 for you. (Verdi, who made an opera out of that Schiller play as well, removed the Englishman and made her fall in love with the Dauphin & later King, which isn't much better…)
Re: Tangentially: St. Joan
And I did read the transcripts, though again, fifteen years ago. They've been on my list to reread for a while now, when health permits. I will add Shaw on your recommendation.
Something that
Re: Tangentially: St. Joan
Shaw's play: to give you a taste, here's Shaw the Irish playwright making fun of the English while writing a play about the French national heroine, in a typical Shavian debate scene, between the Earl of Warwick, Bishop Cauchon and Warwick's chaplain Stogumber:
WARWICK. My lord: I wipe the slate as far as the witchcraft goes. None the less, we must burn the woman.
CAUCHON. I cannot burn her. The Church cannot take life. And my first duty is to seek this girl's salvation.
WARWICK. No doubt. But you do burn people occasionally.
CAUCHON. No. When The Church cuts off an obstinate heretic as a dead branch from the tree of life, the heretic is handed over to the secular arm. The Church has no part in what the secular arm may see fit to do.
WARWICK. Precisely. And I shall be the secular arm in this case. Well, my lord, hand over your dead branch; and I will see that the fire is ready for it. If you will answer for The Church's part, I will answer for the secular part.
CAUCHON [with smouldering anger] I can answer for nothing. You great lords are too prone to treat The Church as a mere political convenience.
WARWICK [smiling and propitiatory] Not in England, I assure you.
CAUCHON. In England more than anywhere else. No, my lord: the soul of this village girl is of equal value with yours or your king's before the throne of God; and my first duty is to save it. I will not suffer your lordship to smile at me as if I were repeating a meaningless form of words, and it were well understood between us that I should betray the girl to you. I am no mere political bishop: my faith is to me what your honor is to you; and if there be a loophole through which this baptized child of God can creep to her salvation, I shall guide her to it.
THE CHAPLAIN [rising in a fury] You are a traitor.
CAUCHON [springing up] You lie, priest. [Trembling with rage] If you dare do what this woman has done--set your country above the holy Catholic Church--you shall go to the fire with her.
THE CHAPLAIN. My lord: I--I went too far. I--[he sits down with a submissive gesture].
WARWICK [who has risen apprehensively] My lord: I apologize to you for the word used by Messire John de Stogumber. It does not mean in England what it does in France. In your language traitor means betrayer: one who is perfidious, treacherous, unfaithful, disloyal. In our country it means simply one who is not wholly devoted to English interests.
Re: Tangentially: St. Joan
I will have to check this out, then.
Ash is a pretty wild ride! I don't know your tastes well enough to know if it's your thing, but it's definitely not your standard historical fiction.