![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Entry tags:
Announcing Rheinsberg: Frederick the Great discussion post 10
So for anyone who is reading this and would like to learn more about Frederick the Great and his contemporaries, but who doesn't want to wade through 500k (600k?) words worth of comments and an increasingly sprawling comment section:
We now have a community,![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
rheinsberg, that has quite a lot of the interesting historical content (and more coming regularly), organized nicely with lots of lovely tags so if there's any subject you are interested in it is easy to find :D
We now have a community,
rheinsberg, that has quite a lot of the interesting historical content (and more coming regularly), organized nicely with lots of lovely tags so if there's any subject you are interested in it is easy to find :D
Re: With Liars among Liars: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorf II)
"Friedrich Wartensleben told me of the Potsdam oddities. The King is healthy, he says, wishes to die and to resurrect, in order to get to watch the changes. Alexander wants to bet his head, which Junior did not commissioned Lichtenstein to walk away from here. (? Help me out here, mes amies?) The crown prince doesn't consider me worthy of conversation."
Wow, that is special. My guess: Alexandre (Wartensleben, probably Friedrich's brother and Katte's first cousin on his mother's side) is willing to bet his head (stake his life) that Junior didn't commission Lichtenstein to get me (Seckendorff or Friedrich?) sent away from here (probably court). What my weak French can't be sure of is whether that "que" means he's willing to bet that Fritz *didn't* commission Lichtenstein to get rid of the speaker, which would be my first reading of "que", and presupposes that someone has accused Fritz of doing it, or if it could possibly means the opposite, that he's willing to bet his head that Fritz did. In which case in English I'd expect "if", not "that", but who knows about French.
In the passage immediately before the Alcibiades/Socrates one, I noticed that Fritz disliked someone named Derschau intensely and was hoping Derschau would get a commission to a regiment so he would be sent away by the king and replaced by Alexandre Wartensleben, whom Fritz must like more.
Lichtenstein is Joseph Wenzel, Prince of Lichtenstein, current owner of the Antinous statue, as you informed us, and according to Wikipedia, Imperial envoy to Berlin 1735-1736.
Orondates = original Seckendorff? Suhm?
I'm skeptical it's Suhm, because I have no evidence that Suhm was ever a general, much less respected as one. Who *was* a general--yes, Seckendorff--but also Lichtenstein. Per Wikipedia, "Joseph was primarily a general and was a very successful campaigner. In 1745, he was made Generalissimo in Italy and was victorious the following year at the Battle of Piacenza. In 1753 he was made General Chief Commander in Hungary. In one of the greatest achievements of his career, he reorganised the Habsburg artillery, partially financed out of his own pocket."
And he left Berlin in 1736, if you trust Wikipedia. I don't know the dates of your passage where the writer is glad he's gone, but the timing might line up. Also, all that bit about "suspicions" and "enjoyed stirring up trouble" just doesn't give me a Seckendorff vibe, although god knows what one courtier will accuse another of. I'm still leaning toward Lichtenstein as Orondates.
Okay, now I'm searching for "Orondate" through the text.
Oh, look at that! The first line on the next page after your passage where FW says Orondates is a capable general reads, "car Gotter ne dit pas, que le roi n'avoit pu souffrir Lichtenstein."
So Orondates = Lichtenstein! Detective Mildred is on the case. :D
Oh, and of course, the first use of the name Orondates (p. 56, May 22) is actually footnoted by the editor as the Prince of Lichtenstein. Well, yes, editor, I had figured that out!
June 13th: Voit from Bayreuth gets an audience with the King. - "Should I congratulate or send my condolences? My daughter has to let herself be f... better."
: The news question can't have been the birth of his granddaughter, since that girl was already born in August 1732
Weird, I remember that quote from MacDonogh, but he says it was on the occasion of the birth of the granddaughter. Which makes sense out of context, but you're right, the timing is weird. The old margrave died just one month before, so maybe he's referring to the fact that the new margrave doesn't have a male heir of his body.
The King is afraid that Junior might become too good an Imperial if he leaves him too long with the (imperial) army. (No danger there, FW.)
Ha! Not for lack of trying. MacDonogh reports, on the other side, "Eugene himself had set some store by the meeting. He wanted to eliminate Frederick’s gallic leanings and bring him round to the imperial cause. In the end, however, he found that the French 'poison' had gone too deep."
Don't worry, Eugene, the French aren't going to be too happy with him either! Junior's going to be an equal opportunity offender of nations.
Re: With Liars among Liars: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorf II)
This is probably the same person whom Seckendorff Jr. later in his Vienna debriefing names as "Derschauer" (as in, Fritz still hates him for 1730) - and this makes me wonder whether it's actually "Dessauer"? (I.e. typical 18th century misspelling?) As in, Old Dessauer, this guy, whom people certainly thought Fritz disliked and assumed would fire but whom he actually kept used to invade Silesia in 1740?
Kudos to you, Detective, for identifying Lichtenstein as Orondates!
Re: With Liars among Liars: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorf II)
whom he actually kept used to invade Silesia in 1740
Huh, I thought Fritz left him behind and said it would look bad if he took his tutor to war? (I.e., Dessauer would get credit.) Ah, Wikipedia says, "The prince [Dessauer] himself was not often employed in the king's [Fritz's] own army, though his sons held high commands under Frederick. The king, indeed, found Leopold somewhat difficult to manage, and the prince spent most of the campaigning years up to 1745 in command of an army of observation on the Saxon frontier."
So yeah, Fritz doesn't seem to be a fan.
It seems from that paragraph in Seckendorff that I mentioned, about Fritz wanting Derschau sent away, that Fritz doesn't like this Derschau guy's influence on the King. But one, I don't think the Alte Dessauer is getting sent away by FW any time soon, I think that's a lost cause. Also, it occurs to me that Fritz said "get his own regiment," and the Dessauer should be way past that point.
Okay, searching through the journal, the first instance of "Derschau" is footnoted merely as "colonel and favorite of the king." So it can't be the Old Dessauer, but it could be one of his sons.
Although Wikipedia said Fritz gave the sons high command. Let me read their entries.
Oh, ha, guess what! Not our guy (at least if the editor can be trusted to have the rank right), but one of the Alte Dessauer's sons actually defected to the Austrians in 1743!
I still can't figure out who the colonel who's favorite of the king and Fritz hates is, though.
But okay, from googling, it looks like Derschau is the name of a Prussian noble family. Aha, it must be this guy. Christian Reinhold von Derschau. He was a colonel at the right time, got his own regiment in 1738, and was a close confidant of FW.
Found him!
Re: With Liars among Liars: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorf II)
Re: With Liars among Liars: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorf II)
Fritz was really kind of a mixed bag, good and bad. (That's why he's my fave, let's be real.)
Re: With Liars among Liars: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorf II)
Though I have to say, I can now see where the German editor of the Gutenberg version who says he cut down Trenck's three volume Rokoko rants and emo to a one volume book "where nothing of value was lost, and a decent adventure novel gained" is coming from. Some of it is due to a change of tastes and conservatism, sure. As in the cut of the entire dedication to the Ghost of Frederick the Great, which is just so very Trenckian, and all the cuts where Trenck snarks multi directional about the power of monarchs. Also I am amused that where Gutenberg Trenck just says that slanderous rumor has Fritz asleep at Soor and being captured by Austrian Trenck, then released due to a bribe, which he, Prussian Trenck, knows to be false because Fritz wasn't even there, he'd already been up and about since 2 am, English translated Trenck renders the evil rumor he's refuting as the King supposedly being in bed with Demoiselle de Schwerin when Austrian Trenck shows up. (I'm with you, Prussian Trenck: Pure slander, that one.)
But Prussian Trenck also rarely misses an opportunity for an outburst about how his poor, poor children have been robbed of their rights to the Trenck estates due to all the injustice that has been happening to him in his life, he's publishing these memoirs mainly for their sake, or no one suffered as much as him, how everyone knows he's the greatest and most blameless and a model of brave manhood and so forth. If the Gutenberg edition already left me with the impression of "he does protest too much", good lord, does the English edition ever. Hence my slightly greater sympathy for the stiff upper lip favouring Gutenberg edition editor.
Re: With Liars among Liars: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorf II)
Agreed, but! You could just as easily start off your reign with a "don't fuck with me" example, and Fritz chose to create goodwill instead.
If you ask me, the difference is that he didn't feel any of those people were a threat to him any more, and so he was able to reason about what would serve his interests best.
English translated Trenck renders the evil rumor he's refuting as the King supposedly being in bed with Demoiselle de Schwerin when Austrian Trenck shows up.
Aha! Well, good thing we acquired the English version, even if it is heavy on the rants and emo. The ghost dedication is priceless!
(I'm with you, Prussian Trenck: Pure slander, that one.)
And not even convincing slander! Fritz in bed with a woman in 1745, pfff. I'm still divided on whether he was even still going to bed with men in 1745!
Hence my slightly greater sympathy for the stiff upper lip favouring Gutenberg edition editor.
I find this very amusing. :D