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Announcing Rheinsberg: Frederick the Great discussion post 10
So for anyone who is reading this and would like to learn more about Frederick the Great and his contemporaries, but who doesn't want to wade through 500k (600k?) words worth of comments and an increasingly sprawling comment section:
We now have a community,![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
rheinsberg, that has quite a lot of the interesting historical content (and more coming regularly), organized nicely with lots of lovely tags so if there's any subject you are interested in it is easy to find :D
We now have a community,
rheinsberg, that has quite a lot of the interesting historical content (and more coming regularly), organized nicely with lots of lovely tags so if there's any subject you are interested in it is easy to find :D
Re: MacDonogh Reread I
Ha. Yeah, no. I mean, there's certainly evidence FW was pissed off at the lack of imperial support re: Jülich and Berg, but I don't recall any prophecies of avenging sons in the books I've read. Now Maybe there are some documents proving just this, but McDonogh's brazen Invention re: what is and isn't in the Political Testament doesn't inspire me with confidence. Especially what is in the Testament is a stern warning to his successors that wars of aggression are of the Evil.
Sophia Charlotte's crack about F1: sounds vaguely familiar, I think Crown Prince Fritz might have included it in a Voltaire letter as part of dissing Granddad and talking up Dad.
I wonder if MacDonogh has got George and FW mixed up, since he likes to mix people up. Or maybe George started it, and FW finished it?
Well, George was older. And may have made a taunt? Still, all the other mentions of this I've seen name little FW as the aggressor (and winner of the fight). Though given the personalities involved, I could believe it of either.
Schwedt brothers: have seen referred them to both as "rowdy", but don't recall any negative stories about Karl as opposed to older Schwedt, either, so I'm opting for confusion. The married-to-Sophie one provoked even our Lehndorff into saying the one thing he did right was the timing of his death, because he died when the court was already in mourning (for Ulrike's husband, I think), and thus didn't have to go to additional expenses for the Mad Margrave.
I'm not entirely sure Caesarion counts as an emperor
He doesn't. At best, he counts as a Pharao, since I think Cleopatra made her son nominal co-regent after her other nominal co-regent, the younger brother (not the one she'd been at war with) had died. Also, McDonogh proves he's bad at German, because that name is such a simple, literal pun and translation. Caesarion = little Caesar. Old fashioned German has the -ling as a miminutive form. As in "Däumling", for example. Keyserling = Kaiserling (in modern spelling) = little Caesar. Tolkien would never have made that mistake, because Saxon English does a similar thing. The younger members of Alfred the Greath's family = Aethelings.
It had twelve members, including Frederick’s brothers William and Henry and, uncharacteristically, his sister Charlotte
That is interesting, if true. Not least because it would indicate either AW or Heinrich could have visited Fritz at Rheinsberg. Otoh, Charlotte married the Duke of Braunschweig in 1733, simultanous to the Fritz/EC marriage, and her and the Duke showing up at Rheinsberg is far more likely.
Bielfeld: forgot to say, Hamilton called Bielfeld unreliable on account on him supposedly writing this letters from Rheinsberg years later, not during - some crack about "them having had no earthly recipient" - , but it might just be snobbery because Bielfeld also gets dissed as a jumped up bourgois among nobles by him.
Will comment on all the other goodness as well, must dash, I'm with the AP's right now, very limited online time!
Re: MacDonogh Reread I
Were they brothers? Wikipedia has them as first cousins, at least if I've got the right individuals. (I might not.) It does say not to confuse Friedrich Wilhelm, Margrave of Brandenburg-Schwedt (Sophie's husband) with his first cousin Margrave Friedrich Wilhelm of Brandenburg-Schwedt, who was Karl's brother and had "Margrave" as a courtesy title.
...Thanks, 18th century.
Also, McDonogh proves he's bad at German, because that name is such a simple, literal pun and translation. Caesarion = little Caesar.
MacDonogh is bad at languages in general--heck, I got that wordplay without even knowing German, it's that straightforward--but I think what he's really bad at is Classics.
What I suspect is going on here is that he's never heard of Caesarion, just like he's never heard of Hephaestion, and he thinks it's a reference to a Caesar's (probably Julius or Octavian) height, hence "diminutive emperor." I seem to remember Octavian wearing platform sandals to appear taller (or being accused of doing same in propaganda), although it's probably giving MacDonogh too much credit for Classics knowledge to assume he even knows that.
And when I said "I'm not entirely sure Caesarion counts as an emperor" I was engaging in sarcastic understatement, because at one point I actually memorized the emperors up to Romulus Augustulus (and yes, that included a bunch of overlapping claimants, not all of whom got recognized by the Senate) and could recite their names off the top of my head, and I knew their major deeds and circumstances of death. I can no longer do that, but I can tell you Caesarion's not on anyone's list.
You and I are researching Fritz with the handicap of not knowing French literature; MacDonogh was researching him with the handicap of absolutely no Classics. (I'm skeptical he knows much about French literature either, but it's hard to know less than I do, so at least there's that.)
Tolkien would never have made that mistake, because
Because Tolkien knew languages, period. Yes, I know -ling from Old English too, because I got my PhD in dead languages, but it's also just not that hard!
That is interesting, if true. Not least because it would indicate either AW or Heinrich could have visited Fritz at Rheinsberg. Otoh, Charlotte married the Duke of Braunschweig in 1733, simultanous to the Fritz/EC marriage, and her and the Duke showing up at Rheinsberg is far more likely.
The other possibility I was imagining is Fritz & co. visiting Berlin, which we know at least he did every winter, and the siblings participating then and perhaps by correspondence as well. But it *is* possible they could visit Rheinsberg.
Then again, it's also possible FW wanted Fritz to invade Silesia, but I don't believe everything I read in MacDonogh. ;)
Interesting re Bielfeld. His letters in the volumes I've checked have dates and recipients, but then my volumes of Catt's memoirs have all these long speeches in quotation marks attributed to Fritz and the dates on which he's supposed to have said them, so Bielfield could be a novelist too.
Re: MacDonogh Reread I
(Anonymous) 2020-01-31 08:00 pm (UTC)(link)Just ran across it in my reading of Lavisse (p. 95), with no citation. Much like the "The new king bids you all go to hell" quote. So if it's invented, at least it's not MacDonogh who invented it.
Okay, Lavisse gives it in German, and so I've googled that phrase, and it goes back at least to 1835, Friedrich Wilhelm I., König von Preussen, Friedrich Christoph Förster. Many people like to quote it, but he's the earliest I'm finding.
Oh, look, Förster believes in citations. <3 May 2, 1736. Journal secret, p. 138. Secret diary of whom?
Seckendorf!
*tracks down Seckendorf's journal, omg we need this for so many reasons*
Yep, there it is. "Disant en montrant le prince royal, 'Voicy quelqu'un que me vengera un jour.'" He seems to be upset about the MT/FS marriage. Which makes sense, given the date.
Well, guess what's going in the Fritzian library? :D
He alternates between French and German in the diary, if you want to skim the German entries for gems.
Especially what is in the Testament is a stern warning to his successors that wars of aggression are of the Evil.
I don't consider this necessarily mutually exclusive with FW wanting to get back territory that he feels his ancestors shouldn't have given up. Humans in general and politicians especially are really good at saying that unjust wars are bad, and then coming up with rationalizations for how their own wars are totally just. I'm not saying FW did this with Silesia, but I'm saying he could have. I would need to see evidence that he did, though, before believing that he had a particular interest in Silesia the way he did other territories to which he felt he had a claim. But I won't be surprised if we someday run across a source for MacDonogh's statement that FW was displeased about the Great Elector (?) giving up the claim somewhere, just not in the 1722 Political Testament. Especially if half of what Lavisse is telling me about FW's politics is true.
Re: MacDonogh Reread I
Ha. Yeah, no. I mean, there's certainly evidence FW was pissed off at the lack of imperial support re: Jülich and Berg, but I don't recall any prophecies of avenging sons in the books I've read.
Just ran across it in my reading of Lavisse (p. 95), with no citation. Much like the "The new king bids you all go to hell" quote. So if it's invented, at least it's not MacDonogh who invented it.
Okay, Lavisse gives it in German, and so I've googled that phrase, and it goes back at least to 1835, Friedrich Wilhelm I., König von Preussen, Friedrich Christoph Förster. Many people like to quote it, but he's the earliest I'm finding.
Oh, look, Förster believes in citations. <3 May 2, 1736. Journal secret, p. 138. Secret diary of whom?
Seckendorf!
*tracks down Seckendorf's journal, omg we need this for so many reasons*
Yep, there it is. "Disant en montrant le prince royal, 'Voicy quelqu'un que me vengera un jour.'" He seems to be upset about the MT/FS marriage. Which makes sense, given the date.
Well, guess what's going in the Fritzian library? :D
He alternates between French and German in the diary, if you want to skim the German entries for gems.
Especially what is in the Testament is a stern warning to his successors that wars of aggression are of the Evil.
I don't consider this necessarily mutually exclusive with FW wanting to get back territory that he feels his ancestors shouldn't have given up. Humans in general and politicians especially are really good at saying that unjust wars are bad, and then coming up with rationalizations for how their own wars are totally just. I'm not saying FW did this with Silesia, but I'm saying he could have. I would need to see evidence that he did, though, before believing that he had a particular interest in Silesia the way he did other territories to which he felt he had a claim. But I won't be surprised if we someday run across a source for MacDonogh's statement that FW was displeased about the Great Elector (?) giving up the claim somewhere, just not in the 1722 Political Testament. Especially if half of what Lavisse is telling me about FW's politics is true.
Re: MacDonogh Reread I
I'm still having a quick look at the journal, which is indeed a wild mixture of two thirds French, one third German phrases, and btw also the source for Fritz' "entertaining during dinner, to be locked up after dinner" remark about Pöllnitz. Made to Grumbkow, and told by him to Seckendorff. Just for added confusion, though, it appears the journal writer is NOT, repeat, NOT Seckendorff the old schemer, later to be kidnapped by mobster boss Fritz so he has someone to trade to the Austrians, but a nephew or cousin. (In the page longe conversation with FW in German, he says "mein Onkel", but in French it's either mon oncle or mon cousin. Which fits with (Friedrich Heinrich von) Seckendorff the old schemer's wiki entry reporting him as governor of Mainz and fighting the French in the Polonian war of succession, and then still in the field in the Russian-Austrian-Turkish war from 1736 - 1739, no longer ambassador to Prussia in 1734, and this journal starting thereafter. I mean, even Seckendorff can't be in two places at the same time.
Other Seckendorff, at a guess, might be Christoph Friedrich von Seckendorff-Adebar, but that's just because the birthdates and dying dates make it possible.
Other Seckendorff does, however, use all the familiar code names - Olympia for SD, Biberius for Grumbkow (I know McDonogh says that's Fritz' nickname for him, but the Austrians definitely got their first), Le Diable for Mantteuffel (ditto). Fritz is, I kid you not, "Junior", if he isn't the Crown Prince.
More in another comment.
Re: MacDonogh Reread I
:D I have to say, I'm much more motivated to go digging through German sources when I know I have someone who can help me get the most out of them!
And Lavisse is turning out to be a cache of small gems. Remember, he's the one who quoted the letter from FW to Lepel ordering Fritz to watch the execution, which allowed us to definitively refute Münchow's claim that there was no such order.
I'm definitely keeping a list of entertaining Lavisse quotes to pass on once I'm done reading, just like with MacDonogh.
which is indeed a wild mixture of two thirds French, one third German phrases
You think that's wild, you should see Catt's diary. Partway through, he decides he's going to start switching between French and Latin in the same sentence. Swear to God he writes "Le Rex voulut," "s'ils nous aggressi erant," and "adjutorem principis Ferdinand, pour voir comme il percuteret Russianos." You can add that to the list of things I was not expecting from the diary.
About 1/3 of the way through the manual cleanup, partly because I keep stopping to read as I go. I've found that Fritz does talk to him about not being allowed to learn Latin! It's not the full direct discourse that's in the memoirs, but the topic of discussion came up. Meaning that he did at least allude to his childhood abuse when talking to Catt.
Just for added confusion, though, it appears the journal writer is NOT, repeat, NOT Seckendorff the old schemer, later to be kidnapped by mobster boss Fritz so he has someone to trade to the Austrians, but a nephew or cousin.
That is in fact far more complicated than I anticipated. I admit I dropped it in the library as soon as I found it and went back to alternating between Lavisse and Catt, hoping that the Royal Reader would pick it up. And indeed, the Royal Reader reads at a truly royal pace!
I know McDonogh says that's Fritz' nickname for him, but the Austrians definitely got their first
To be fair to MacDonogh (who, now that I check his endnotes, cites this journal extensively), he never says Fritz invented the nickname, only that he used it. Much like Algarotti the swan, Fritz is using an existing nickname. Well before Fritz comes onto the scene, MacDonogh writes,
What brought together all three of the main protagonists [FW, Grumbkow, Seckendorff] in Prussian foreign policy and the marriage affair was drink. Seckendorff was a great toper, and his nephew claims that Grumbkow's consumption was no less 'astonishing', a fact generally recognised at the time, for he was known as 'Biberius' to his friends. Seckendorff had the harder head though, and was able to wheedle secrets out of the Prussian minister in his cups; and better still, remember them the next morning.
MacDonogh also says, of the tobacco parliament,
...the Tabakscollegium, where Seckendorff endured countless sessions to find the right opportunities to get his own way. Like Pöllnitz and the Alte Dessauer, Seckendorff did not actually smoke, but stuck a pipe in his mouth all the same and occasionally pressed his lips together to give the impression he was puffing on it.
Fritz is, I kid you not, "Junior", if he isn't the Crown Prince.
OMG. This is SUCH a mobster film! Okay, on to your write-ups in their full glory.
Re: MacDonogh Reread I
Blanning to the rescue: he names the author as Baron Christophe Louis de Seckendorff. Preuss agrees. Apparently, Blanning talks at length about Manteuffel and the Seckendorff diary (and even "Junior"!), and it all went whoosh! over my head at the time. That's why rereading him is next on my list after Lavisse.
We've come so far in so few months!
Re: MacDonogh Reread I
BTW, if the Abbé de Prades was able to clean out his fellow prisoners of their money by gambling, and Lehndorff could visit the legendary schemer Seckendorff as if it was a social call, I assume if you weren't Trenck, Magdeburg imprisonment conditions (for nobles at least) weren't too harsh...