Announcing Rheinsberg: Frederick the Great discussion post 10

[cahn]

So for anyone who is reading this and would like to learn more about Frederick the Great and his contemporaries, but who doesn't want to wade through 500k (600k?) words worth of comments and an increasingly sprawling comment section:

We now have a community, rheinsberg, that has quite a lot of the interesting historical content (and more coming regularly), organized nicely with lots of lovely tags so if there's any subject you are interested in it is easy to find :D

Comments

Re: Henri de Catt Unplugged - II

[mildred_of_midgard]

"If Voltaire came to see me, it would be rare, and I would prevent any bother."

And how would you do that, exactly, Fritz? Do tell. :P Because your track record doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

I'm leaving the Latin, btw, because it cracks me up. "Well, do it, mi frater!" and all.

Yeah, Catt's random forays into Latin, Greek, and English in his diaries are weird and hilarious. I would totally get it if it were entire sentences, but he goes word by word, and that's just bizarre.

The two MT mentions are great, and as opposed to the memoirs version, come without "at leaset she hates whores", which makes me wonder whether de Catt isn't the one who has an anti sex worker bias?

You know, I think he might be. Check out this passage:

Before dinner I went to the King...He found that men were unjust towards women; that we allowed ourselves to be disturbed and that we did not suffer from them. - »I know that I will never make laws: but those for women are not fair. An infidelity of the husband exempts the wife from being constant. "- I denied it. "Everyone has his ideas."

So one, it sounds like Catt has way less sympathy for women having sex than Fritz. Two, I have now found yet *another* occasion on which Fritz is supposed to have said that if his father forced him to get married, he could do what he wanted, and it would be fair because he'd let her do the same. Now, as you pointed out, would he have done it if it came down to his reputation? Maybe, maybe not. But there are now four occasions, decades apart, on which he's espoused the belief that if the man cheats first, the woman is off the hook.

And here it's Catt who's got less liberal, more standard ideas. So maybe that MT backhanded compliment was more Catt than Fritz. Fritz is straightforwardly, if grudgingly, giving her her due in the diary.

Oh, speaking of Catt and women, I mentioned that the Seven Years' War is like his tour through the female population of Central Europe? If, per Paul, it's better to marry than to burn, I get the impression this guy is burning, and according to Wikipedia, he's going to marry in 1761.

Given, you know, Heinrich's copy of it with hand written comments was supposedly so incendiary that it got disappeared from the state archives:

Hahaha. Also the comment about how he had to put up an obelisk to honor the real heroes of the war, "about whom his fucking memoirs say nothing."

And lastly, one more Voltaire statement. Can't tell whether this one is meant as a diss or an endearing story:

Voltaire, on leaving, gave three copies of Louis XIV to the cook and the servants.

I'm not certain either, but reading the entire entry, Fritz seems to be talking about the importance of applying yourself to philosophy and learning things yourself, not just accepting what you're told. And he starts talking in particular about women: women who study philosophy, women who have intrigues but decently (which he seems to find acceptable). And if you put this into context with one of Fritz's writings on how society and parents let women down by not having them be educated as a matter of course, which results in them spending all their time on love affairs and their appearance...maybe he's saying, "Look, even Voltaire thinks women and/or lower class individuals should educate themselves."

Émilie, at least per Bodanis, had the same observation that the women at court who were frivolous and shallow were so only because they weren't given better options. Obviously, she was more sympathetic to the women than Fritz, but he was at least on the right track.

There's a Lehndorff mention in the camp gossip!

I noticed! Lehndorff *and* Countess Bentinck!

Re: Henri de Catt Unplugged - II

[selenak]

And how would you do that, exactly, Fritz? Do tell. :P Because your track record doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

Verily. I don't think putting Voltaire in a birdcage after dinner is a viable solution... (All kidding aside, I do find it oddly touching he still believes Voltaire will come back, post war.)

So one, it sounds like Catt has way less sympathy for women having sex than Fritz.

It does, and I'm tentatively revising my opinion on Fritz' propensity for slut-shaming as being at least partially based on Henri de Catt's unreliable memoirs. (Mind you, there are still the "three whorse of Europe" quotes which don't come from de Catt. But in terms of his general attitude towards female sexuality, it looks like a case can be made!)

Oh, speaking of Catt and women, I mentioned that the Seven Years' War is like his tour through the female population of Central Europe? If, per Paul, it's better to marry than to burn, I get the impression this guy is burning, and according to Wikipedia, he's going to marry in 1761.

Marries the sister in law of AW's private secretary, don't forget. Who suddenly finds himself singled out by Fritz together with only one other as the sole two decent people around AW who weren't "evil advisors" councelling him against Big Bro in the memoirs, without any basis of this in the diaries whatsoever.

But yes, Catt definitely does not live chaste himself in the 7 Years War.

Re: Henri de Catt Unplugged - II

[mildred_of_midgard]

I don't think putting Voltaire in a birdcage after dinner is a viable solution...

He can keep Pöllnitz company. :P

But yes, that "can't live with you, can't live without you" is touching. Also, Fritz is kind of used to people leaving and coming back after the war is over, and of course he's also used to Voltaire specifically coming and going. So it doesn't really surprise me that he didn't know what we know, that they were never going to see each other again, despite having a quarter of a century in which to do so.

It does, and I'm tentatively revising my opinion on Fritz' propensity for slut-shaming as being at least partially based on Henri de Catt's unreliable memoirs.

Same. I'm having to tentatively revise a lot of things.

But it does seem like not having to worry about commandments about adultery or original sin and so forth helped Fritz out in this account. I'll share a quote to this effect soon, in my Lavisse write-up.

By the way, let me tweak Google Translate's "He found that men were unjust towards women; that we allowed ourselves to be disturbed and that we did not suffer from them" that I quoted above. He's saying that men permit themselves to stray from the straight-and-narrow but don't allow (suffer) women to.

(Mind you, there are still the "three whorse of Europe" quotes which don't come from de Catt.

Where do they come from, out of curiosity?

But yes, Fritz is definitely a huge misogynist, but in keeping with him being a fascinating mixed bag of good and bad, he has some surprisingly liberal ideas about women.

On the one hand, women are inferior, smell bad (Fritz, no one can even approach you without sneezing, and also, how have your nasal passages not been incapacitated already? I defy you to convince me that you can smell anything), shouldn't be allowed to be in charge of anything (unless it suits him), should never rule over men, etc., etc., *but*, they should be educated as a matter of course in a way that they're not currently, should be free to have affairs if their husbands are cheating on them, and in general can be allowed to have love affairs as long as they're conducted discreetly and motivated by passion. And it's not totally their fault that they're obsessed with looks and love affairs. (He doesn't seem to get that in a world where men have all the power, a woman's ability to attract a man become a means of survival, he seems to think it's just frivolity in the absence of being able to think about philosophy and literature, and he doesn't want women benefiting from their affairs *cough*, but okay. It's a start.)

Fair For Its Day, as TV Tropes would say.

Marries the sister in law of AW's private secretary, don't forget. Who suddenly finds himself singled out by Fritz together with only one other as the sole two decent people around AW who weren't "evil advisors" councelling him against Big Bro in the memoirs, without any basis of this in the diaries whatsoever.

Of course! Who else would he marry but the sister of a really upstanding guy who was one of Fritz's favorite people?