Announcing Rheinsberg: Frederick the Great discussion post 10

[cahn]

So for anyone who is reading this and would like to learn more about Frederick the Great and his contemporaries, but who doesn't want to wade through 500k (600k?) words worth of comments and an increasingly sprawling comment section:

We now have a community, rheinsberg, that has quite a lot of the interesting historical content (and more coming regularly), organized nicely with lots of lovely tags so if there's any subject you are interested in it is easy to find :D

Comments

Re: Fritz Tells All: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorff I)

[selenak]

As much boyfriend action and family dysfunction as you could want, all in one entry!

I know! *handkiss*

AW "good natured but mind of a peasant", Ferdinand "most wicked child of the King", Heinrich "bad nature":

Lolsob. Remember, Joseph is also going to be the menace of Europe as soon as he gets a chance!

You get the impression Fritz is incredibly paranoid and pessimistic, and as Lavisse says, he and Wilhelmine were taught from a young age to look for the worst in people and expect the worst. :/


True, though in this instance I think there are some other things going on. To wit, as Fritz himself knows, foreign powers are totally ready to supply a prince with money and use him politically if they can. And he's talking to an envoy. He doesn't want Saxony, or anyone else, hedging their bets on AW instead of him, and certainly not share that money with Heinrich and Ferdinand once they get older (since he has no idea how long FW is going to be around for, and true, now H & F are kids, but Fritz himself was ready to conspire at 14/15, and that's only four more years for Heinrich to go).

...and H & F just kicked him under the table. I totally maintain that happened.

It occurs to me that we haven't quoted yet the famous "how to treat my brothers princes of the blood" pasage from Fritz' 1752 Political Testament, which goes thusly:

There are a type of hybrid creatures who are neither rulers nor private men, and who are difficult to govern. These are the princes of the blood. Their high origin infuses them with a certain arrogance which they call nobility. it makes obedience unbearable to them, and any kind of submission hateful. If there are any intrigues, cabales or plotting to be feared, it could originate from them. In Prussia, they have less power than elsewhere. But the best method to deal with them consists of putting them in their place with vigour, to treat them with the distinction due to their high origin, to heap ceremonial honors on them but to keep them far away from any business of the state, and to entrust them with a military command only with it is safe to do so, i.e. if they possess talent and a reliable character.


Now granted, "princes of the blood" in Prussia also includes the Schwedt cousins, who are, after all, grandkids from F1's half brothers (courtesy of F1's detested stepmother he accused of having poisoned his older brothers). But somehow I don't think Fritz, writing these lines in 1752 (possibly when he's just returned from celebrating Heinrich's wedding), is not thinking of the Margrave of Schwedt...

Are you serious? Are you fucking SERIOUS? Omg, all I can take away from this is 1) Fritz is a troll, 2) Fritz wants an erastes SO BAD and Suhm is in Dresden :-((((.

See, I'd have put as "Wanted: One Sugar Daddy". :) Well, granted, Voltaire would never have been that. He was supporting a lot of social causes in his life time with the lots of money he gathered, including schools for Swiss peasants, but I really doubt he'd have given his royal Prussian pen pal a single dime at that point. So "erastes" it is.

But aww, poor lonely Crown Prince, what with Katte dead, Suhm only around for a few weeks a year (and soon not at all), Voltaire not willing to give up freaking Émilie, and I'm telling you, Fredersdorf may fill more niches than is humanly possible, but he *does not* satisfy those erastes cravings!

Clearly. Though I agree with you it's likely a mixture of motives, i.e. that and Fritz as ever looking for leverage and money. We should also consider he's gotten pretty good at dissembling (even towards other pros) by then; Seckendorff the Nephew thinks he's really become buddies with Grumbkow (as opposed to use and be used), whereas we know that when Grumbkow kicks it, Fritz is all "yay" in a letter to Wilhelmine.

I'm still cackling about the multiple use of golden Socrates heads on canes and Socrates/Alcibiades analogies in 1736, though.

Re: Fritz Tells All: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorff I)

[mildred_of_midgard]

He doesn't want Saxony, or anyone else, hedging their bets on AW instead of him, and certainly not share that money with Heinrich and Ferdinand once they get older

This is an excellent point. Especially since, as you said elsewhere, Fritz was having to quash rumors about AW even into the late 1730s.

...and H & F just kicked him under the table. I totally maintain that happened.

Enjoy the kicking while you can, boys! Only a few more years till he becomes king.

keep them far away from any business of the state

Yeah, Fritz's MO is consistently: "Spot a threat a mile away, take pre-emptive action." When it comes to fight-or-flight, he's locked in "fight" mode, and his threat-detector is so oversensitive it picks up on false positive after false positive. And that's why European powers making defensive alliances could count on him to invade at some point.

See, I'd have put as "Wanted: One Sugar Daddy". :) Well, granted, Voltaire would never have been that. He was supporting a lot of social causes in his life time with the lots of money he gathered, including schools for Swiss peasants, but I really doubt he'd have given his royal Prussian pen pal a single dime at that point. So "erastes" it is.

You know, you just went through my exact thought process. :D Obviously, Fritz wants money so bad he'll go through people like Seckendorff and EC. The only part of "Wanted: One Sugar Daddy" I would quibble with is the word "one". "Wanted: As many sugar daddies as possible." ;) But Voltaire's never going to give him money, so I have to assume the Socrates/Alcibiades thing comes out of a craving for an erastes, preferably but not necessarily one with access to ready money they're wiling to make available to Fritz.

Clearly. Though I agree with you it's likely a mixture of motives, i.e. that and Fritz as ever looking for leverage and money.

Indeed. Though I threw the erastes possibility out there for the sake of gossipy sensationalism and in answer to your question of whether he and Manteuffel had sex, what I think was most likely going on was primarily self-interest. I'm sure he would have loved another Suhm, but I don't think realizing that wasn't what he had slowed him down one bit in his quest for leverage and money.

I'm still cackling about the multiple use of golden Socrates heads on canes and Socrates/Alcibiades analogies in 1736, though.

We're all still cackling about that. Hey, when you hit on a winning formula, why hold back? :D