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Frederick the Great discussion post 9
...I leave you guys alone for one weekend and it's time for a new Fritz post, lol!
I'm gonna reply to the previous post comments but I guess new letter-reading, etc. should go in this one :)
Frederick the Great links
I'm gonna reply to the previous post comments but I guess new letter-reading, etc. should go in this one :)
Frederick the Great links
Re: Brotherly Conduct I: The Prelude
That's...a lot of material for your hateship, indeed! Can hardly wait for the fic.
his entry for the year of doom 1730 is, wait for it:
Wait. Are you saying that was the *whole* entry?
Re: Brotherly Conduct I: The Prelude
Well, what Ziebura quotes, at any rate. Mind you, context is important: AW in 1744 writes this for baby FW2 to read once he's grown up, he's an excited young father, and presumably "oh, and also, Grandpa FW locked up Uncle Fritz that year and had his bff beheaded" is not what you want your kid to read. Or your theory of traumatic amnesia applies, since we know kid AW did witness the terrible of FW's return.
In any event: "The year in which Heinrich moved in with me" is not how other Hohenzollern family members would describe 1730...
(BTW Heinrich was born on January 18th, so the moving him from nurses and his mother to his brother's household really happened basically as soon as he'd turned 4, which also happened to Ferdinand later, who moved in with the older two.)
I'm definitely including that "treaty" in Potsdam scene. Since Fredersdorf is still around in 1749: What do you think is his take on brother Heinrich? Because the situation is different than it will be with Voltaire. Voltaire made his own bed, so to speak, and "staying out of this one" is the wisest thing to do. But Heinrich as Fritz' brother won't go away, he's a permanent fixture, plus - do you think Fredersdorf would see the resemblance?
Re: Brotherly Conduct I: The Prelude
In any event: "The year in which Heinrich moved in with me" is not how other Hohenzollern family members would describe 1730...
Myyyeaaaahhhhh. Somehow I don't remember this getting extensive coverage in Wilhelmine's memoirs...
Since Fredersdorf is still around in 1749: What do you think is his take on brother Heinrich?
Ooh, that's a super interesting question. I'll give it some more thought, but I don't have a strong sense of Fredersdorf's personality yet (the lack of data makes it hard).
Re: Brotherly Conduct I: The Prelude
Here are my thoughts: Fredersdorf, who remembers rather vividly how Fritz felt about FW and EC, does see the resemblance and feels quite a lot of sympathy for Heinrich, and also feels, like
Fredersdorf goes so far as to mention to Fritz that he wonders what the political value of Heinrich marrying is. Fritz uses this as an opportunity to rant about Heinrich and AW and how everyone is against him.
Fredersdorf tries again, talking about how he used to fight with his brothers and a vague parallel involving one of them bossing him around. Fritz either misses the parallel entirely or chooses to ignore it. When Fredersdorf gets a little more specific, Fritz is pretty clear that he needs to just back off, that this is Fritz's family and Fredersdorf isn't a Hohenzollern and doesn't get a say in it.
Fredersdorf drops it, quietly. But he does make sure that any letters from Heinrich or AW are expedited and brought to the King's attention immediately. Just in case.
(I am probably making like ten different historical errors, but, you know.)
Re: Brotherly Conduct I: The Prelude
Re: Brotherly Conduct I: The Prelude
Either way, whether through thinking Fritz was misguided or out of a sheer desire to help solve this problem for him, if Fredersdorf interceded at all, my headcanon is that it wasn't at all done by trying to get Fritz to see that he was overreacting, that there was no political value, etc. Rather, my Fredersdorf would take a more overtly supportive approach, like, "I'm so sorry about this falling out, I really hope you work this out soon, for your sake," and then proposes (or tries to steer the conversation around such that it becomes Fritz's idea) ways of dealing with the problem by cementing Heinrich's loyalty to Fritz with an act of mercy, like maybe not forcing him to get married once he capitulates. Not because it wouldn't be justified! but because mercy might be in Fritz's long-term interests.
And that way Fritz can be all, "No, you don't understand my brother, only *I* understand my brother. If I give him an inch, he'll take a mile." Then Fredersdorf can see he's not budging and then back off, without having done anything that even resembled an attempt to intervene on the side of
reasonHeinrich.And I think this works much better if it's not manipulation to get Heinrich a better outcome but a genuine concern for Fritz's needs first and an effort to forestall the radioactive hateship? Because on both a political and a personal level, not alienating your brother the prince is a good solid move!
Expediting letters, sure. Better yet, timing the delivery of the letters to when Fritz is in a comparatively better mood, or even, trying to help get him into a better frame of mind right before delivering the letters.
Anyway, that's my personal headcanon after thinking about it for a bit. YMMV!
Re: Brotherly Conduct I: The Prelude
While I can see the appeal of making Fredersdorf the always-reasonable objectively-correct observer of Hohenzollern dysfunction
Lol, guilty. I also find it very appealing, as I've said, to make Lehndorff the always-clueless-but-perceptive observer (even if he is less clueless than he lets on, sometimes).
But also, the thing I don't really have a good sense of, as most of this information is coming through Hohenzollern private correspondence (which presumably Fredersdorf didn't get to read??), is how much everyone else knew about all this and what everyone thought. Like, if everyone on the street and his brother is all "Geez, AW got a terrible deal here," I can see Fredersdorf's internal reaction being very different than if everyone's all "The One King!" and the only thing he ever hears about it is Fritz complaining about how his siblings are out to get him.
Re: Brotherly Conduct I: The Prelude
And yes, we're pretty close in our takes overall.
is how much everyone else knew about all this and what everyone thought.
What I wondered was the somewhat similar question of: How directly involved was Fredersdorf in this whole fiasco? Was he required to issue or see to the carrying out of any orders related to the regiment clean-up, Heinrich's behavior, or the marriage? Because if so, that amplifies his chances of rationalization by a like a million. If not, then he has a better chance at a slightly more critical perspective on Fritz's role in this.
You're right that, living in Fritz's pocket as he did, he might have gotten the echo chamber effect. To the point where even if he heard criticism, he might have doubled down on defending Fritz to himself. As
A decent narrative you could come up with if you wanted to rationalize the whole forced marriage episode: FW "started it" by beating up on Fritz for playing the flute, etc. Fredersdorf thinks playing the flute is A+ and you should not get beaten up for it, and maybe trying to get away was at least somewhat justified. Whereas Heinrich "started it" by allowing recruits into his regiment against the rules. And yet Fritz reacted way less harshly than FW! As Fredersdorf of all people knows.
I'm not saying Fredersdorf necessarily did rationalize Fritz's actions, but it's a very real possibility, especially for someone who was there and watched Fritz go through what he went through and got invested in taking his side.
Regardless, if he did intervene, I think it was a very "I am not questioning you AT ALL" approach that Fritz could come away from thinking, "Well, he's terribly naive about Heinrich, of course, but at least Frederdsorf's on my side in all this." ("Because of course I am RIGHT! Why wouldn't he be on my side?")
Re: Brotherly Conduct I: The Prelude
However, Cahn raises an important point by asking:
Like, if everyone on the street and his brother is all "Geez, AW got a terrible deal here," I can see Fredersdorf's internal reaction being very different than if everyone's all "The One King!" and the only thing he ever hears about it is Fritz complaining about how his siblings are out to get him.
This made me remember Lehndorff‘s slightly hipster attitude when ca. 1758 tout Berlin turns into Heinrich fans, i.e. „hey, I loved him first, and did so when you lot were all just gossiping about his favourites and lifestyle!“. Now, I think in terms of court and upper society, there was this attitude in 1749:
Divine Trio, i.e. all three princes: throw really good parties. Crown Prince AW already ensured the dynasty won‘t die out, well done he, and he‘s the best looking of the lot, but also a bit of a horndog. Did you hear about him and Fräulein von Pannwitz/Countess X/Lady Y? Well, we can‘t all be geniuses like the King, I suppose, and better he gets it out of his system now than when he gets to the throne. Which hopefully will be a looooong while from now. Our King is awesome! As for Prince Heinrich: There‘s one in every family, isn‘t there. He‘s gonna be the Prussian Philippe d‘ Orleans, all favourites and debts. Yes, I‘ve heard he wasn‘t doing too badly in the last Silesian War, but come on, Philippe d‘ Orleans was in a few battles, too. Thank God he‘s not getting anywhere near the throne, though, or it would be one weak monarch ruled by boytoys, ugh. What‘s that I hear, he‘s going to be married? Don‘t think that‘ll help, but hey, we‘re getting another royal wedding out of it.
So basically: most public sympathy will be on Fritz‘ side. It might be slightly different within the army, depending on whether Ferdinand is correct in his report that several officers have offered their resignation rather than be targets for Fritz‘ bad mood. AW was in charge of all the revues at Spandau at that point and was popular with the officers, including with the older FW remembering lot (favourite son et al, was enthusiastic about soldiers as a kid, bless); Heinrich was probably thought of as okay, and among those few who were witnesses to him distinguishing himself in the later second Silesian war as worthy of being the One King‘s brother, but definitely not on a level with the genius who got them Silesia, and hey, maybe marrying will help him be a bit more discreet with the boytoys. What‘s hard about marrying a beautiful woman anyway? We should be so lucky. Etc.
As to whether Fredersdorf reads Fritz‘ private family correspondance: in peacetime, I‘m going with „no“, not unless Fritz explicitly tells him to. He might have to in war time in case it‘s urgent, because it would take too long since Fritz is in the field, but not in peace time.
Re: Brotherly Conduct I: The Prelude
But if word on the street also favored Fritz, it's possible that Fredersdorf might have too? However, I wouldn't be surprised if Fredersdorf's echo chamber wasn't so much word on the street (although that might feed into it) or even the "officers [who] have offered their resignation rather than be targets for Fritz' bad mood," but the nobles, intellectuals, artists, etc. who have to interact with Fritz and his mood at close range. And those people are usually but not always involved in quite a bit of friction with Fritz. See also Algarotti and his "worst road" leading back to Prussia*.
So Fredersdorf, even if he personally manages to live his best life with Fritz, will have plenty of chances to observe other people inside and outside the royal family not being so successful, and to form opinions about how it might not be 100% their fault. (He might credit himself for his own success, though, and silently sigh and wish other people would just do what he does and not bring out the worst in Fritz.)
The one thing I wouldn't see working, if he tried to intervene, would be holding up his own relationship with his brothers as a model, however diplomatically and indirectly. Because I just don't see Fritz seeing sufficient parallels between the loyalty and obedience he is owed as the head of the family, army, and kingdom on the one hand, and on the other, Fredersdorf and whatever squabbles he may have with his peasant brothers. Yes, there are rules about what you owe your various family members no matter who you are (so Fredersdorf honoring his mother is an A+ move to Fritz's way of thinking), but there are just some aspects in Fritz's situation (like army discipline) that Fritz is going to latch onto as justifying and indeed governing his own behavior.
And so I'm skeptical that Fredersdorf would even try it, after eighteen years of living with Fritz. The chances of Fritz being insulted by the implied lesson (and he is a suspicious individual who is constantly on the alert for people trying to manipulate him) are just too high. I wouldn't risk it.
Okay, haha, I said I didn't have opinions about anything being a historical error, but this is the closest I come to having an actual opinion about what's likely and unlikely.
If it were me, I'd go for holding up a picture of Fritz as benevolent king and his brother as loyal and grateful to him after this incident blows over with no damage done.
And if he finds Fritz in terrier mode, we all agree Fredersdorf backs off with a "Nothing I can do, and not worth wrecking my own relationship with him over." Just like with EC.
* To be fair to Fritz, while he definitely drove people away, Algarotti also had a penchant for showing up in a new city, falling passionately in love with it, and finding things to hate after three months. This is why the dissertation has two chapters titled something like "Some People Never Change I: Algarotti Looks for a New Job" and "Some People Never Change II: The Old Frederick Resurfaces" (chapter titles approximated from memory). He was no Voltaire, but he had his own...I don't know if I'd call that a flaw, but consistent personality traits, for sure.
As to whether Fredersdorf reads Fritz‘ private family correspondance: in peacetime, I‘m going with „no“, not unless Fritz explicitly tells him to. He might have to in war time in case it‘s urgent, because it would take too long since Fritz is in the field, but not in peace time.
I was waiting to see if you knew of any specific examples, but since neither of us does, I'm going to go with no too.
You might have told us and I forgot (we've passed 600,000 words! no one can possibly remember everything), but is it true that after August 1757, Fritz had correspondence with AW handled by a secretary? Unreliable source, but for the letters I've spot-checked up to August, Trier lists as "Nach der Ausfertigung. Eigenhändig," and the ones after simply as "Nach der Ausfertigung." Which makes me think maybe the later ones are indeed in a different hand?
And I do remember you telling us that AW had to handle Wilhelmine's correspondence during part of their falling out.
Re: Brotherly Conduct I: The Prelude
Thinking of some people with difficult spouses I know: yes, sounds familiar…
BTW, I meant the "echo chambers are a thing" comment as agreeing with your earlier point, and the "Fredersdorf also gets the word from the staff" as a separate issue. For example: I couldn't help but notice that Lehndorff, even while he's a fan of the Divine Trio in general, loves to hang out with them and then of course falls in love with Heinrich in particular for the next few decades, doesn't, when he has younger relations, both male and female to place, try to get them into the household of any of the princes. Or EC's household. (Or that of Fritz, but presumably that one is impossible for him anyway.) He gets both his niece and his teen brother in law (before the later's early demise) places in Amalie's household, because, moody as he's known her to be with her equals and with the nobility, "nobody can deny she takes care of her young people and educates them well". And, as he notes elsewhere, Amalie actually likes kids. Now I could be wrong, but I suspect this is among other things because Lehndorff has observed that if you're a page with one of the brothers, you can end up in a messy love triangle, and if you're a lady in waiting, EC does take her sadness and frustration out on you and definitely isn't a strong enough personality to lay down the law if, like little Keyserlingk Jr., you flirt like you're in Versailles. So he has both the pov of someone who adores the princes (most of the times) and loves spending time with them, and is able to step back and see that from the pov of whom to place an impressionable teen with, they're not so great.
None of which is meant as disagreement with your earlier points, especially since whatever he thinks of the other siblings, Fredersdorf is bound to believe they've got it easier than Fritz did.
If it were me, I'd go for holding up a picture of Fritz as benevolent king and his brother as loyal and grateful to him after this incident blows over with no damage done.
And if he finds Fritz in terrier mode, we all agree Fredersdorf backs off with a "Nothing I can do, and not worth wrecking my own relationship with him over." Just like with EC.
Absolutely. Just with a tiny tiny caveat, and that is: as I've observed elswhere, the more I read of the sibling correspondances, the more it strikes me that Fritz did feel a need for them to love him. (While also feeling the need to keep them from any power and definitely subordinate to him, of course.) And this grows with the years, instead of lessening, as would perhaps be the more usual way of things. So there's another motivation for Fredersdorf - not because of however much or little sympathy he has for the sibs, in this case, Heinrich and AW, but because he's aware that Fritz has an inner FW yelling "But I don't want you to fear me, I want you to love me!" riding in tandem with "you better are in awe of me and do what I say, sonny!", and that if this type of interaction continues, it might poison the well for good. In which case maybe he doesn't try to influence Fritz but considers working the other angle, i.e. have a chat with AW as the most harmony loving brother and respectfully suggest that talking Heinrich into apologizing might be best for everyone. Something like that.
(I'm also assuming Fredersdorf doesn't talk to Heinrich himself here. Precisely if he's recognized the similiarities of temper.)
is it true that after August 1757, Fritz had correspondence with AW handled by a secretary? Unreliable source, but for the letters I've spot-checked up to August, Trier lists as "Nach der Ausfertigung. Eigenhändig," and the ones after simply as "Nach der Ausfertigung." Which makes me think maybe the later ones are indeed in a different hand?
I know as much as you do in this regard. "Ausfertigung" sounds as if the letters were dictated, but "eigenhändig" sounds to me as if Fritz might have added a line or two in addition to his signature. (For example: Klosterhuis mentions that the "His son is a villain, so is mine" etc. lines were written by FW himself, while the majority of the correspondance was written by Eichel.)
The Wilhelmine travel letters website has scans of the originals so you can see the handwriting, but I take it Trier doesn't, if it's exclusively based on Preuss?
Re: Brotherly Conduct I: The Prelude
Very true. I do think Fredersdorf must have had a solid grasp of Fritz's strengths and weaknesses. Even if he managed to rationalize Fritz's right to do what he did, he could probably spot a mile away a situation about to escalate out of control, and probably decided to help smooth things over.
the more it strikes me that Fritz did feel a need for them to love him.
Absolutely agree. That's why I think Fredersdorf might have been motivated to solve this problem not for Heinrich's sake but for Fritz's sake, because he knows Fritz is going to be miserable if his family hates him. And why the approach I suggested for a Fredersdorf intervening directly with Fritz was to highlight how good things were going to be and how well-disposed toward Fritz his brothers were going to be after he didn't force the marriage down Heinrich's throat.
It's also why the time you asked, "What did he want out of his family relationships? I mean, emotionally," my answer included, "Affection: I think this was a big one. Fritz craved affection all his life and could never seem to get enough," and why when you asked if he was genuinely offended at Heinrich giving him the cold shoulder, my reaction was, "Hell, yes. Fritz was the needy type."
Fritz has an inner FW yelling "But I don't want you to fear me, I want you to love me!"
Yesss, I was thinking of this too. :/
, i.e. have a chat with AW as the most harmony loving brother and respectfully suggest that talking Heinrich into apologizing might be best for everyone.
That does sound plausible.
The Wilhelmine travel letters website has scans of the originals so you can see the handwriting, but I take it Trier doesn't, if it's exclusively based on Preuss?
Correct, or at least not that I've found.
"Ausfertigung" sounds as if the letters were dictated
Interesting. The most common notes on sources are "Nach dem Concept," "Nach der Ausfertigung," "Nach Abschrift der Cabinetskanzlei," "Nach Aufzeichnung des Cabinetssecretärs," "Der Zusatz 'de la main propre du Roi' nach Abschrift der Cabinetskanzleî," and "Eigenhandig."
I've never been clear on the nuances of what's a dictation vs. a clean copy made for the archives or what, but I've been assuming that "Eigenhandig" means the whole thing is in Fritz's handwriting, since at least some of the time they indicate when it's just the postscript in his hand. "Nach dem Concept" sounds like it's from a draft. I'm not sure about Ausfertigung vs. Abschrift.
But if Ausfertigung is a dictation, then the majority of the letters to Heinrich in the political correspondence are dictations too.
Re: Brotherly Conduct I: The Prelude
Now that's another thing. This to me sounds indicating that what Preuss had at his disposal were copies of the original letters - whoever wrote these - , because the archive system demanded each letter to and from the king be copied. "Abschrift" = copy.
"Der Zusatz" = The addition; "Der Zusatz de la main propre du roi" - the addition in the King's own hand.
"Eigenhändig": in his own hand.
Ausfertigung in this context: probably clean copy following a draft. I.e. the draft might have had abandoned sentences, changed phrases etc., but it was never sent and destroyed after the clean copy was made.
This being said, I think the political correspondance letters to Heinrich - since a lot of these letters contain key military information during the war and political dynamite like the Poland negotiations or Swedish politics in peace - might have been in cyphre, then decoded into a clean copy for the archive, so I bet a secretary is involved. (Not so much when Fritz is just talking philosophy or history in the 1780s, of course.)