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Frederick the Great reveal post / discussion post 8
In the last several months, as anyone who reads this DW knows, ![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
mildred_of_midgard and selenak and I have been part of this quite frankly amazing Frederick the Great fandom, and I sort of assumed that the two people in this fandom who actually knew anything, mildred and selenak, were going to write fics for Yuletide, and I (who know nothing except what they've told me in the last several months) was going to awesomely enjoy reading them. In fact, mildred wrote a Fredersdorf fic for selenak's prompt which I betaed, but then mildred's medical issues got bad enough to interfere with her writing fic (making the beta edits would have involved a substantial amount of rewrite), and she wrote a post lamenting she wasn't going to be able to produce any yuletide fic. Meanwhile, I had two fics that I was pretty sure were from selenak, and I thought it would be a shame for her to write us fic and for her not to get any :(
So then mildred and I had this (very paraphrased) conversation (mildred_of_midgard has her own account here, and she has promised to reproduce the actual conversation in comments to this post):
me: You know, we should really write something for selenak! Now that I've read what you wrote about Fredersdorf, I think I could take a stab at her Fredersdorf prompt, if you edited and otherwise helped me out with historical stuff and also if you don't mind it being way more about music than something you would write.
mildred: YES GOD YESand also oh you sweet summer child thinking you know enough to write this. [Mildred was far FAR nicer than this in real life.] For starters, here are 3500 words [really!] of things I know for a fact you don't know about Fredersdorf.
me: ...I was clearly overoptimistic. But I can work with this. Um, also, all the creativity-generating bits of my brain are already being used for my assignment, so can you also come up with an idea for the fic and also answer all my historical questions?
mildred: Sure! While I'm thinking about this, have 2k more words of historical grounding! Ok, and here are some ideas too. In fact, here's a whole plot for you!
me: Great! *writes 4k words of the plot*
mildred and me, more-or-less in unison: You did all the hard parts!
Then mildred fixed all my extensive historical errors and was fortunately able in between various medical woes to add various parts like the entire Wilhelmine subtheme and the entire last scene, and we deleted some of my words, and then I wrote some more paragraphs about music at her request and edited some of her stuff. I estimate that I probably ended up writing ~4.5k of the final fic, and mildred ended up writing ~ 2k of it (does that sound about right?) Of course that does not count the... I have no idea how much historical consultantcy stuff mildred ended up writing in the end, but I imagine it was significantly upwards of 10k :P And of course she wrote the detailed endnotes :D It also does not count all the words written in comments to the google document where we argued things like that Fredersdorf should be more zen than mildred wanted to write him and less zen than I wanted to write him :)
Although mildred and I mostly agreed on things, I had final veto power (and I did wield it a couple of times), so any remaining problems should be thought of as mine :) I'm very curious, though, as to how evident the collaboration was, and how evident the seams were, as I think mildred and I have very different writing styles, but it went through enough editing passes and discussion that I suspect much of the differences got at least somewhat smoothed out?
Counterpoint for Two Flutes
mildred_of_midgard and selenak and I have been part of this quite frankly amazing Frederick the Great fandom, and I sort of assumed that the two people in this fandom who actually knew anything, mildred and selenak, were going to write fics for Yuletide, and I (who know nothing except what they've told me in the last several months) was going to awesomely enjoy reading them. In fact, mildred wrote a Fredersdorf fic for selenak's prompt which I betaed, but then mildred's medical issues got bad enough to interfere with her writing fic (making the beta edits would have involved a substantial amount of rewrite), and she wrote a post lamenting she wasn't going to be able to produce any yuletide fic. Meanwhile, I had two fics that I was pretty sure were from selenak, and I thought it would be a shame for her to write us fic and for her not to get any :(So then mildred and I had this (very paraphrased) conversation (
mildred_of_midgard has her own account here, and she has promised to reproduce the actual conversation in comments to this post):me: You know, we should really write something for selenak! Now that I've read what you wrote about Fredersdorf, I think I could take a stab at her Fredersdorf prompt, if you edited and otherwise helped me out with historical stuff and also if you don't mind it being way more about music than something you would write.
mildred: YES GOD YES
me: ...I was clearly overoptimistic. But I can work with this. Um, also, all the creativity-generating bits of my brain are already being used for my assignment, so can you also come up with an idea for the fic and also answer all my historical questions?
mildred: Sure! While I'm thinking about this, have 2k more words of historical grounding! Ok, and here are some ideas too. In fact, here's a whole plot for you!
me: Great! *writes 4k words of the plot*
mildred and me, more-or-less in unison: You did all the hard parts!
Then mildred fixed all my extensive historical errors and was fortunately able in between various medical woes to add various parts like the entire Wilhelmine subtheme and the entire last scene, and we deleted some of my words, and then I wrote some more paragraphs about music at her request and edited some of her stuff. I estimate that I probably ended up writing ~4.5k of the final fic, and mildred ended up writing ~ 2k of it (does that sound about right?) Of course that does not count the... I have no idea how much historical consultantcy stuff mildred ended up writing in the end, but I imagine it was significantly upwards of 10k :P And of course she wrote the detailed endnotes :D It also does not count all the words written in comments to the google document where we argued things like that Fredersdorf should be more zen than mildred wanted to write him and less zen than I wanted to write him :)
Although mildred and I mostly agreed on things, I had final veto power (and I did wield it a couple of times), so any remaining problems should be thought of as mine :) I'm very curious, though, as to how evident the collaboration was, and how evident the seams were, as I think mildred and I have very different writing styles, but it went through enough editing passes and discussion that I suspect much of the differences got at least somewhat smoothed out?
Counterpoint for Two Flutes
Re: My Englishmanm, or: Heinrich Who?
But yes, for Lehndorff, it wasn't always healthy due to the unevenness. Still, I guess that if you'd asked him in his old age when he was happily retired that if he could rewrite his life to he never gets closer to Heinrich than respectful courtier to King's younger brother whom he greets at court events now and then, would he do so, he'd have said no. I should probably say something about his relationships with his two wives - which were far better ones than the ones any Hohenzollern had with theirs and are actually good examples of how "marriage following the socially expected pattern" can work out if you're ready to treat your spouse decently. By which I don't just mean not be a jerk, but spend some time together that's not about procreation, take her part when your mother attacks her for not having as many noble ancestors as your own bloodline, laugh together, be ready to comfort when needed, that kind of thing. In neither case was it a passionate relationship, and never mind Heinrich, the ladies don't get passionate outbursts like Hotham of the few months, either, or wistful romantic thoughts like Cousin Frau von Katte, the one who got away. He didn't spontanously fall in love with either; in the first case, because his brother had died, making him the heir, and there was a war going on, the pressure to continue the family line was high, and in the second case, because all the children form the first marriage were dead, there was still the pressure to continue the line. He looked for someone pretty, gentle and from the right class, preferable with a good dowry, and found them. But he liked both women as people, and they seem to have liked him.
(With the caveat that we don't have the wives' testimonies about their marriages - maybe it would have been different from Lehndorff's diary entries, who knows?)
So these were good marriages by the standards of the day, and compared to many others around him, they were looking downright stellar. But he Comes across as having a need for romance and passion, and the great passion of his life happened to be one prince from an insane family with hidden and not so hidden issues. He wasn't as lucky as Fredersdorf in that a) Fritz definitely was ready to commit himself to Fredersdorf, if not monagamously than in terms of emotion and sharing a life together, and b) Frederdorf got the job challenge to end all job challenges out of it. (Boredom ws never one of Fredersdorf's problems!) Then again, in other respects, he was luckier - he had lots of relationships and an emotional life aside from Heinrich, his health didn't get wrecked, and eventually he had surviving children, which he definitely wanted to have. (Not just for the family line, he liked children. His first wife has kid siblings whom Lehndorff spends time with for playing and teaching, and he's also good with AW's kids when he sees them.)
If Fredersdorf and Lehndorff weren't so trustworthy and discreet about their problematic faves, though, Lehndorff's canonical visit at Fredersdorf's could totally be an occasion for them to share a bottle and empathize about being in love with Hohenzollerns who a) get a kick out of playing emotional power games with each other, and b) have a thing for charismatic bastards!
Re: My Englishmanm, or: Heinrich Who?
Without having read more than what you've so kindly shared with us, I agree.
Fritz definitely was ready to commit himself to Fredersdorf, if not monagamously than in terms of emotion and sharing a life together
<333
and b) Frederdorf got the job challenge to end all job challenges out of it. (Boredom ws never one of Fredersdorf's problems!)
Good lord, no! Whatever Fredersdorf's secret diary looks like, it doesn't contain the words, "I wish I were EC's chamberlain because Fritz is so boring and EC is so exciting." :-PP
If Fredersdorf and Lehndorff weren't so trustworthy and discreet about their problematic faves, though, Lehndorff's canonical visit at Fredersdorf's could totally be an occasion for them to share a bottle and empathize about being in love with Hohenzollerns who a) get a kick out of playing emotional power games with each other, and b) have a thing for charismatic bastards!
Ha! Well, we did write Heinrich and Franz Stephan sharing a bottle and trying to hook up the one's brother with the other's son during the Seven Years' War, complete with cameo from ghost!Philippe d'Orleans, so...stranger things have happened!
R/l Fredersdorf, though, no, I don't see him spilling the beans about Fritz either. It's good to have trusty SOs and friends with benefits. <3
That was also a nice write-up of Lehndorff and his wives, thank you.
Re: My Englishmanm, or: Heinrich Who?
Fair enough, I do concur with you (and mildred) about that.
I do love his relationship with his wives, and I agree that it shows him as a fundamentally decent human being (well, as far as we can tell), and it certainly stands in contrast to all of the Hohenzollern, sigh.
take her part when your mother attacks her for not having as many noble ancestors as your own bloodline
Awwwww! Go Lehndorff! <3
Then again, in other respects, he was luckier - he had lots of relationships and an emotional life aside from Heinrich, his health didn't get wrecked, and eventually he had surviving children, which he definitely wanted to have.
Huhhhhhh. Until you said that, I didn't think about the possibility Fredersdorf's wrecked health may have been due at least partially to his job. I mean, talk about a high stress job environment! Of course, as mildred likes to remind us, it's not like people didn't have plenty of reasons for having poor health in those days, including the terrible medical care -- but the accumulated stress over years of this can't have helped, and I wouldn't be surprised if it hurt him as well. Man, no wonder he wanted to retire after twenty years of this.
(Not just for the family line, he liked children. His first wife has kid siblings whom Lehndorff spends time with for playing and teaching, and he's also good with AW's kids when he sees them.)
Awwwww, this makes me like him even more :D
Lehndorff and children
I find he's much more amiable when Count Borck isn't around him. The prince is one of those shy beings whose trust one has to win through loving behavior and not through harshness, the way Count Borck does it. I have much affection for this prince. I venerated his father, and thus the son will always be dear to me.
As for his own kids, two bookends:
January 10th 1760: As I get dressed this morning, an urgent messenger brings me the news that my wife has born a son. While this event fills me with supreme joy, I am afraid the child will not live, for it has been born fourteen days too early at least. At once, I hasten to the Countess Camas, who advises me to depart as quickly as possible. (...)
January 11th ff: Without any interruption, I arrive at 6 pm in Magdeburg. The first thing I hear is that the child is so weak that it has been given an emergency baptism. He was named Friedrich Ahasverus Heinrich. I visit my wife, and when they bring me the child I take it into my arms with the greatest joy of the world. In such moments, very strange emotions overwhelm one. I would never have believed it possible that you can feel such intense affection for such poor little creature. For three days, I indulged in the joy of looking at him about a thousand times, and wanted to do nothing but make plans for his future and watch it. But all my hopes were of a short endurance. One morning, they woke me up and told me that the child was dying, and not an hour later, he was dead. I am so unhappy about this that I can't enjoy anything. The poor child, so beautiful and well proportioned, will be buried here in Magdeburg in the Heilig Geist Kirche in a coffin clad in red velved with silver tresses.
For contrast, a joyful entry, which is Lehndorff, after having finally resigned as EC's chamberlain, five dead children, one dead wife and a living second wife (their first shared child died as well, alas, no.5 for him) later, returning home to his estate in 1777 when:
As I climb up the stairs, a pretty boy rushes towards me. While I wonder who he could be, a cry tells me it is my son. This child, who had been so thin and sick that I gave him to Doctor Muzelius and then to my dear niece in Halle for treatment, has changed so much within the last six months that I did not know him at first. I cannot describe my joy. It is as if my soul became one with the child's, so happy did I feel.
Re: Lehndorff and children
Oh, FFS, Fritz. If Catt is to be trusted at all, you specifically said that *you* have to be won over with positive reinforcement, and that you try to mend your ways to live up to praise, whereas attacking you just makes your faults worse. And of course the "if they had raised me instead of humiliating me, I would be a better person" line that I keep quoting.
Fritz, why must you be so good at insights and so bad at applying them?
ETA: But also "awww" about Lehndorff.
Re: Lehndorff and children
Added to which, he seems to have done a good paternal/avuncular job with Henricus Minor and Wihelmine Minor... but then FW had been a far better father to AW as well. Seems the mutual positive feedback loop strikes again. Future FW2 was the successor with all the expectations that carried, Henricus Minor was not, and of course Wilhelmine Minor wasn't, either. And as Hohenzollerns went, FW2 was avarage, which might have been a disappointment of its own. He wasn't stupid, but he didn't have the eagerness for knowledge Fritz and most of his siblings had (though how much of this was due to it being forced down his throat as a toddler, who knows - I mean, if you're given a top mathematician (Beguilin) as a teacher on Maupertuis' advice when you're four years old, and you're not the scholarly equivalent of Mozart, you're not going to deliver good school results). And he was just okay as a military man, either. Considering the last time Fritz took over the education of a younger relation, this had been Henricus Major who for all their difficulties then delivered on both the hunger for knowledge and the military talent front, it must have felt like a let down.
I wouldn't be surprised if poor future FW2 made him extra angry for being what FW1 had thought Fritz would be - more interested in girlfriends and fun than hard work as a teen and young man, open to the influence of of people flattering him. (Hence Fritz eventually caving and acknowledging Wilhelmine Encke as Prussia's first maitresse en titre since F1's days, because she at least had no political interests and provided FW2 with affection without seeming to want anything but a secure position and comfort out of it.) It's as if being given a distorted portrait - this is how your father saw you - which makes for extra anger.
BTW, Borck the strict Steward/governor eventually lost Fritz' favour and got fired. Why? Because he'd told young FW that his key principle as a ruler should be: "A state can be made happier through the preservation of peace than through the conduct of a successful war." This in the year 1763, I kid you not.
Re: Lehndorff and children
Oooff, you're right. Wow this whole family is fucked up. Fritz, your decision not to have kids was one of your best. Please see that through in practice and not have de facto kids.
BTW, Borck the strict Steward/governor eventually lost Fritz' favour and got fired. Why? Because he'd told young FW that his key principle as a ruler should be: "A state can be made happier through the preservation of peace than through the conduct of a successful war." This in the year 1763, I kid you not.
Yep, I was actually planning to bring this up. Look, if Wilhelmine isn't allowed to say it, Borck, you're sure as hell not.
Crown Prince Fritz is, but King Fritz has selective amnesia. RHIP.
Re: Lehndorff and children
Heh. Is he really, or is he sufficiently both perceptive and unselfaware that he doesn't realize that's what it is? (not gonna lie, his lovely & acute perceptivity combined with hilarious unselfawareness is honestly what I love best about him, so that's clearly going to be my vote)
The prince is one of those shy beings whose trust one has to win through loving behavior and not through harshness, the way Count Borck does it.
<3 I can totally believe Lehndorff was a great dad <33
I cannot describe my joy. It is as if my soul became one with the child's, so happy did I feel.
<33333333
Fredersdorf and stress
Armchair Psychologist Mildred is here to weigh in. :D
So if you look at the literature on the effects of job stress on health, they're actually pretty counterintuitive. The high-powered overachievers at the top with the most job responsibilities have the fewest stress-related health problems; the people lower down, whose jobs appear easier, are more likely to have stress-related health problems.
And the key criteria appear to be:
1) How much control do you have in your job over the things that matter to you?
2) How secure do you feel in your job?
3) How much are you used as a punching bag by the people above you?
People at the bottom of the totem pole, who have to do what they're told and don't have much input in how things are done, live in fear of losing their jobs, and have to put up with verbal abuse, are quietly way more stressed and unhealthy than the people who juggle a whole bunch of responsibilities at once and whose work demands look far more impressive to the casual observer.
So if we judge Fredersdorf's job by those criteria, I'm actually not sure Fredersdorf comes off as a likely candidate for job stress. Of course, I wasn't ever in his shoes, and we don't have his very secret diary, but he strikes me as one of the people who the layperson thinks should be very stressed but the research doesn't back it up.
Heinrich, yes, Heinrich lives in fear of being scapegoated à la AW. Heinrich doesn't have control over the things that matter to him (see
But if Fredersdorf is quietly afraid of losing his job if he's ever less than perfect, then that's possible, but I have no evidence for it. If Fritz is taking out his temper on Fredersdorf when they're alone, then that's possible, but I have no evidence for it. If Fredersdorf is silently seething over how Fritz mismanages things and he could do a better job if he were given a free hand, then that's possible, but I have no evidence for it.
What I do have evidence for is Fredersdorf being near the top of the totem pole, having more independence of action than most people in Prussia under Fritz, and above all, taking on more responsibilities outside of work by choice, such as alchemy and management of his estate at Zernikow (which he could have delegated far more of than he did). This suggests he didn't feel work was using up every moment of his available time and that he had to stress about getting everything perfect or he would lose his job. This suggests he had time and energy left over, and also that he was a high-powered overachiever who actually liked working, and enjoyed the challenge.
Also, even further down the totem pole, having something you're invested in outside of work offers a protective effect against work-related stress. It gives you a chance to have positive emotional experiences and keeps work from becoming your whole life. These people have fewer stress-related health problems, as a demographic, than people who are wholly at the mercy of their work-related emotions.
So...I actually vote against the evidence being for Fredersdorf fitting the profile of someone whose health is run down by work. There are unknowns, but I'd like to think there was enough trust between him and Fritz that he didn't live in fear of being scapegoated, and that he was spared the worst of Fritz's abuse. And there wasn't really anyone else he answered to in the hierarchy.
Now, *alchemy* as the cause of some of Fredersdorf's health problems and eventually perhaps his death is a very interesting hypothesis...
Re: Fredersdorf and stress
That is a very good point, especially about Zernikow and the non-delegation of same. (As opposed to completely reorganizing it and turning it into a floroushing estate.)It's also worth noting that Lehndorff - who does have solid ideas about class - despite his "fading looks" conduct also records being impressed by Fredersdorf's intelligence and graceful conduct. Highly stressed individuals, especially if they also physically ill, aren't known to be charming and graceful in conversation with younger court officials far below them in the hierarchy, even post retirement. Fredersdorf keeping his even temper till the end would also argue for him having lived more or less the life he wanted, with it bringing out the best in him.
Re: Fredersdorf and stress
This is also an excellent point. The whole study on stress and hierarchy is that stressed middle managers being punched down on from above are more likely to transfer stress down. If not deliberately aggressively, then in an "OMG I'm losing my mind" frantic kind of way. Not be charmingly and gracefully chill.
I'm glad. I'm glad all the evidence points toward Fredersdorf getting to live his best life, at least insofar as the 18th century permitted. <3
See, cahn? He is zen! :D My perception of him is less zen in the beginning, when the only data he's got is "huge class differences" and "FW is a bloodthirsty maniac," and increasingly zen as time went on and he and Fritz got into a good mutual positive feedback loop.
Admittedly, there is another stress personality profile that I haven't mentioned, the "people-pleasing suffering-in-silence dying-inside" profile, and those people do end up gracious and charming to those below them and prone to stress-related disease, but it just doesn't seem to fit what we know of Fredersdorf's personality or situation.
EC would be a better fit, but I like to hope that, even if she was unhappy about the overall structure of her situation, her day-to-day Fritz-free life was calm and reasonably fulfilling. Maybe especially as time went on and she learned to adjust to it and build a life that didn't revolve around her disappointed hopes.
Re: Fredersdorf and stress
I was also clearly projecting a bit, because my sister is absolutely the "people-pleasing suffering-in-silence dying-inside" sort and the stress has caught up with her. (She's in therapy for all of this, which has helped the mental issues but the physical ones are unfortunately harder to deal with.)
(Connecting back to that post on your DW a while back, she absolutely fits the profile you talked about there: "I'm having tentative thoughts that given environmental stressors and/or after drawing the short straw with regard to mental health genes, people who put other people's needs first are less likely to perpetuate the cycle of abuse and more likely to end up crippled by anxiety/depression/self-esteem problems.")
Anyway, I'm very glad that this doesn't seem to be the case for Fredersdorf! (Although I wish he could have been healthier, sigh. Stop mucking around with mercury, Fredersdorf!)
Re: Fredersdorf and stress
Ugh, I'm sorry to hear that. My binary there is an oversimplification, but a lot of people do fall into one category or the other. Neither is a happy place.
FWIW, EC lived to be 81, which is pretty good for the 18th century and I hope means she didn't have a ton of stress-related physical problems.
Anyway, I'm very glad that this doesn't seem to be the case for Fredersdorf! (Although I wish he could have been healthier, sigh. Stop mucking around with mercury, Fredersdorf!)
Right?! Sigh.
Re: Fredersdorf and stress
Re: Fredersdorf and stress