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Frederick the Great reveal post / discussion post 8
In the last several months, as anyone who reads this DW knows, ![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
mildred_of_midgard and selenak and I have been part of this quite frankly amazing Frederick the Great fandom, and I sort of assumed that the two people in this fandom who actually knew anything, mildred and selenak, were going to write fics for Yuletide, and I (who know nothing except what they've told me in the last several months) was going to awesomely enjoy reading them. In fact, mildred wrote a Fredersdorf fic for selenak's prompt which I betaed, but then mildred's medical issues got bad enough to interfere with her writing fic (making the beta edits would have involved a substantial amount of rewrite), and she wrote a post lamenting she wasn't going to be able to produce any yuletide fic. Meanwhile, I had two fics that I was pretty sure were from selenak, and I thought it would be a shame for her to write us fic and for her not to get any :(
So then mildred and I had this (very paraphrased) conversation (mildred_of_midgard has her own account here, and she has promised to reproduce the actual conversation in comments to this post):
me: You know, we should really write something for selenak! Now that I've read what you wrote about Fredersdorf, I think I could take a stab at her Fredersdorf prompt, if you edited and otherwise helped me out with historical stuff and also if you don't mind it being way more about music than something you would write.
mildred: YES GOD YESand also oh you sweet summer child thinking you know enough to write this. [Mildred was far FAR nicer than this in real life.] For starters, here are 3500 words [really!] of things I know for a fact you don't know about Fredersdorf.
me: ...I was clearly overoptimistic. But I can work with this. Um, also, all the creativity-generating bits of my brain are already being used for my assignment, so can you also come up with an idea for the fic and also answer all my historical questions?
mildred: Sure! While I'm thinking about this, have 2k more words of historical grounding! Ok, and here are some ideas too. In fact, here's a whole plot for you!
me: Great! *writes 4k words of the plot*
mildred and me, more-or-less in unison: You did all the hard parts!
Then mildred fixed all my extensive historical errors and was fortunately able in between various medical woes to add various parts like the entire Wilhelmine subtheme and the entire last scene, and we deleted some of my words, and then I wrote some more paragraphs about music at her request and edited some of her stuff. I estimate that I probably ended up writing ~4.5k of the final fic, and mildred ended up writing ~ 2k of it (does that sound about right?) Of course that does not count the... I have no idea how much historical consultantcy stuff mildred ended up writing in the end, but I imagine it was significantly upwards of 10k :P And of course she wrote the detailed endnotes :D It also does not count all the words written in comments to the google document where we argued things like that Fredersdorf should be more zen than mildred wanted to write him and less zen than I wanted to write him :)
Although mildred and I mostly agreed on things, I had final veto power (and I did wield it a couple of times), so any remaining problems should be thought of as mine :) I'm very curious, though, as to how evident the collaboration was, and how evident the seams were, as I think mildred and I have very different writing styles, but it went through enough editing passes and discussion that I suspect much of the differences got at least somewhat smoothed out?
Counterpoint for Two Flutes
mildred_of_midgard and selenak and I have been part of this quite frankly amazing Frederick the Great fandom, and I sort of assumed that the two people in this fandom who actually knew anything, mildred and selenak, were going to write fics for Yuletide, and I (who know nothing except what they've told me in the last several months) was going to awesomely enjoy reading them. In fact, mildred wrote a Fredersdorf fic for selenak's prompt which I betaed, but then mildred's medical issues got bad enough to interfere with her writing fic (making the beta edits would have involved a substantial amount of rewrite), and she wrote a post lamenting she wasn't going to be able to produce any yuletide fic. Meanwhile, I had two fics that I was pretty sure were from selenak, and I thought it would be a shame for her to write us fic and for her not to get any :(So then mildred and I had this (very paraphrased) conversation (
mildred_of_midgard has her own account here, and she has promised to reproduce the actual conversation in comments to this post):me: You know, we should really write something for selenak! Now that I've read what you wrote about Fredersdorf, I think I could take a stab at her Fredersdorf prompt, if you edited and otherwise helped me out with historical stuff and also if you don't mind it being way more about music than something you would write.
mildred: YES GOD YES
me: ...I was clearly overoptimistic. But I can work with this. Um, also, all the creativity-generating bits of my brain are already being used for my assignment, so can you also come up with an idea for the fic and also answer all my historical questions?
mildred: Sure! While I'm thinking about this, have 2k more words of historical grounding! Ok, and here are some ideas too. In fact, here's a whole plot for you!
me: Great! *writes 4k words of the plot*
mildred and me, more-or-less in unison: You did all the hard parts!
Then mildred fixed all my extensive historical errors and was fortunately able in between various medical woes to add various parts like the entire Wilhelmine subtheme and the entire last scene, and we deleted some of my words, and then I wrote some more paragraphs about music at her request and edited some of her stuff. I estimate that I probably ended up writing ~4.5k of the final fic, and mildred ended up writing ~ 2k of it (does that sound about right?) Of course that does not count the... I have no idea how much historical consultantcy stuff mildred ended up writing in the end, but I imagine it was significantly upwards of 10k :P And of course she wrote the detailed endnotes :D It also does not count all the words written in comments to the google document where we argued things like that Fredersdorf should be more zen than mildred wanted to write him and less zen than I wanted to write him :)
Although mildred and I mostly agreed on things, I had final veto power (and I did wield it a couple of times), so any remaining problems should be thought of as mine :) I'm very curious, though, as to how evident the collaboration was, and how evident the seams were, as I think mildred and I have very different writing styles, but it went through enough editing passes and discussion that I suspect much of the differences got at least somewhat smoothed out?
Counterpoint for Two Flutes
Re: Katte: Ordre und Kriegsartikel (Jürgen Klosterhuis)
Nope, other than the year in Utrecht.
Aunt Melusine the Mistress of G1 was indeed aunt Melusine to Hans Herrmann;
Do we know how she was genealogically related?
Yes. Hans Herrman‘s grandmother on the paternal side was Eva Maria von Stammer. Eva Maria‘s sister was Anna Elisabeth who had married Gustav Adolf von der Schulenburg. Melusine was the daughter of Anna Elisabeth.
then on his own initiative to Madrid where he met de Rottembourg (who'd been transfered there)
Can you tell if they mean "met" as in "made the acquaintance of" or "ran into again"?
The later. „Traf er wieder“ is what Klosterhuis says.
I gather Klosterhuis is the source for the anecdote about Hans Hermann and his riding a horse into his cousin's (Petronella?) living room. Is there any more detail on that? Gossipy sensationalists need to know!
Alas it wasn‘t Petronella, it was Sophie Charlotte, daughter of Uncle Heinrich Christoph, and Klosterhuis uses the word „Soll er einmal...“ i.el „he supposedly...“, the conditionalis. Source citation again Martin von Katte and either he or Klosterhuis don‘t seem entirely sure the story is true, hence the „soll“.
Also, we now have Trenck, Marwitz, Voltaire, and Katte starting family collections. Which raises the very important question: which sibling was Glasow after? :P
Well, Ferdinand isn‘t yet spoken for by anyone involved with dem Einzigen. Mind you, given that sister Sophie‘s husband the godawful Schwed was so awful and she spent half of her time in and around Berlin, I would wish her a fling, but not exactly with a potential brother poisoner.
And someone really ought to let Voltaire‘s spirit dictate that „How to succeed at the court of Frederick the Great“ list with its „also make a pass at one of his siblings“ item...
ETA: Also, what does the evidence for the affair look like? Letter from Hans Hermann? Other?
Like I said: Klosterhuis in his footnote says that Martin von Katte says Hans Heinrich mentions it in a letter to brother Christoph. Presumably (this is me, not Klosterhuis) in a „you won‘t believe that the boy is up to in London“ manner? Then again, Aunt Melusine is a cherished member of the family, so the Kattes were at least in theory okay with royal mistresses, therefore with sex out of marriage?
Later, his regiment commander's judgment on him: "I can't make heads or tails off Katte; sans reproche - i.e. without fail - he seems to be only on horseback or playing the flute".
Do we have a date for this? I saw something that said that Katte spent 5 years as a cornet, instead of 3, which is unexplained, but that source also says he joined 8 November 1724, instead of winter 1726. If it was 26, then he spent a normal amount of time as a cornet.
It was definitely the winter of 1726 according to Klosterhuis. Source for the remark is a letter from the commander - von Pannwitz - to Grandpa Wartensleben, as quoted by Martin von Katte, still dated 1726, i.e. talking about first impressions of our boy.
(I.e. he didn't want to desert, he wanted to offficially quit Prussian service and enter the Hannover/British one.)
Thank you for confirming it was the latter. 1) That makes infinitely more sense, 2) wow, that has implications for his later attitude toward the escape plan.
Doesn‘t it just? Also, Zeithain puts the Petronella fling during his Grand Tour years earlier (so she can deflower him whereas by 29 HH most certainly was not a virgin anymore), whereas Klosterhuis says it was in the winter of 28/29. Now of course it‘s entirely possible to have an affair with G1‘s illegitimate daughter in winter/early spring and start another with the Crown Prince of Prussia in later spring, but still: fast work, Hans Herrman! And did you or did you not count on Melusine and Petronella as allies if the escape had succeeded?
Wikipedia says Fritz & Katte shared lessons. Does Klosterhuis support that? I have found no sources outside Wikipedia.
Not really. He mentions the possibility of the 1727 encounter as per Martin v. Katte quoting the officer mentioned, but also explicitly says no close contact until 1729. He says they played the flute together, but does not use the word „lesson“.
FW was extra paranoid before Fritz ever tried to escape. Iin January in Potsdam there was actually a desertation conspiracy among 40 (!) members of the Regiment Gens d'Armes - i.e. Katte's regiment.
Had seen this claim, hadn't seen a source for it. Good to know! What is Klosterhuis's source, btw?
I have to correct myself looking it up - it wasn‘t the Regiment Gens d‘ Armes, it was the royal regiment No.5, ,“Gardegrenadiere“, and since the source citation is another book by Klosterhuis titled „Lange Kerls“, I take it these were in fact long fellows, i.e. Potsdam Giants!
OOOOHHH, I was wondering where she got those from, in Bayreuth circa 1745! See, I knew this pamphlet was relevant to our extremely serious scholarly interests and they should let us inspect it. :P
Naturally. BTW, if Wilhelmine took that 1731 pamphlet with her from Berlin to Bayreuth (since I assume it wasn‘t in Bayreuth already), and risked getting and keeping it in 1731 in the first place, despite still being under strict paternal supervision, it would imply that post his death, she had at the very least conflicted emotions about the late Hans Herrmann. (Since she hardly was planning on a career as a memoirist in 1731!)
The "not a virgin, I don't think" insinuation seems mostly there so the case of FW the law believer remains intact.
Oh, FFS.
What I thought. He also calls her a „real life Luise Miller“, which I must admit amused me because it‘s an allusion to Schiller‘s Kabale und Liebe, which I have told Cahn about. (Also made into a Verdi opera, albeit a far more obscure one than Don Carlos, with all the politics taken out and the action transferred from corrupt present day (to Schiller) Würtemberg to some idyllic Tyrolian village.) Luise is the daughter of town musician Miller, in love with Ferdinand von Walter, son of the most powerful man of
Würtemberga corrupt principality most certainly not the one in which Schiller is currently trying to escape military service to the Duke. Ferdinand‘s dastardly father the Präsident von Walter, PM to the nameless Duke, threatens among other things to have her whipped in public as a whore.Indeed! And all thanks to you! You know, if I do ever manage to write any Katte fanfic, it's going to have a serious amount of oddly specific detail in it. :D
Once again, you have delivered, and you are the very best royal reader.
Just you wait until I publish my memoirs.
Re: Katte: Ordre und Kriegsartikel (Jürgen Klosterhuis)
it was Sophie Charlotte, daughter of Uncle Heinrich Christoph, and Klosterhuis uses the word „Soll er einmal...“ i.el „he supposedly...“, the conditionalis. Source citation again Martin von Katte and either he or Klosterhuis don‘t seem entirely sure the story is true, hence the „soll“.
Oh, but this is still hilarious. Also, it's good to know which cousin, so I don't accidentally get it wrong. Also good to know it's not a confirmed anecdote.
He says they played the flute together, but does not use the word „lesson“.
Per Wikipedia, it was mathematics and mechanics lessons. Now that I think on it, don't they meet during lessons in Zeithain too? (I mean, aside from the nod to the operation that may or may not have happened.) And Fritz hates on math and Katte tries to win him over?
Now of course it‘s entirely possible to have an affair with G1‘s illegitimate daughter in winter/early spring and start another with the Crown Prince of Prussia in later spring, but still: fast work, Hans Herrman!
Indeed! Especially if that was the affair where he learned that women are really not for him, so as soon as he runs into a guy he's attracted to, extra motivation to act on it, consequences be damned.
And did you or did you not count on Melusine and Petronella as allies if the escape had succeeded?
OMG you're right! Wow, what would I do if I didn't have you to point out the obvious to me?
Yes. Hans Herrman‘s grandmother on the paternal side was Eva Maria von Stammer. Eva Maria‘s sister was Anna Elisabeth who had married Gustav Adolf von der Schulenburg. Melusine was the daughter of Anna Elisabeth.
Sheesh! I found both those women and thought the whole "aunt" thing made the most sense if they were sisters, making Melusine Hans Hermann's 1st cousin once removed of an older generation, but then all the genealogy sites were giving me no way of relating Eva and Anna Elisabeth. Well, another victory for Team Find Out Everything About Katte!
Just you wait until I publish my memoirs.
Ahahahaha. I trust they will be more reliable than some other memoirs by readers I could mention.
Re: Katte: Ordre und Kriegsartikel (Jürgen Klosterhuis)
Someone should! Perhaps someone co-authoring a Fritz/Voltaire crackfic. *looks around for possible candidates in the vicinity*
Re: Katte: Ordre und Kriegsartikel (Jürgen Klosterhuis)
This is really cute!
(Also made into a Verdi opera, albeit a far more obscure one than Don Carlos, with all the politics taken out and the action transferred from corrupt present day (to Schiller) Würtemberg to some idyllic Tyrolian village.)
I do know of the opera, though I've not seen it, because the Met did it last year with Domingo as the baritone. All the harassment problems aside (they hadn't yet come out at that point), I'm not really very fond of Domingo as a baritone, so I hadn't checked it out yet.
Just you wait until I publish my memoirs.
I giggled :D