cahn: (Default)
cahn ([personal profile] cahn) wrote2019-12-02 02:27 pm
Entry tags:

Frederick the Great, discussion post 6

...I think we need another one (seriously, you guys, this is THE BEST) and I'd better make it now before I disappear into the wilds of music performance.

(also, as of this week there are two Frederician fics in the yuletide archive and eeeeeeeeeee)
(huh, only one of them is actually tagged with Frederick the Great even though two with Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine, eeeeeee this is awesome I CAN'T WAIT)

Frederick the Great masterpost
selenak: (Father Issues by Raven_annabella)

Our Insane Family: The Prequel Years

[personal profile] selenak 2019-12-03 05:43 pm (UTC)(link)
I've been meaning to share this, i.e. support for Mildred's "everyone had PtSD at each other since the 30 Years War at least" theory.

Friedrich Wilhelm of Brandenburg, The Great Prince Elector: Hi. I'm not yet a King either in or of Prussia, but you might say it all starts with me. By "all", I mean making Prussia awesome and making my family - well. I spent my childhood mostly at Küstrin - yes, that one - because it's a mighty fortress, and the 30 Years War was going on. My parents figured I'd be safe there. Speaking of my parents, I didn't see them for seven years, but hey, we nobles are raised by other people anyway.

So, by the time I started ruling, there wasn't much left to rule. The population was wiped out, two thirds of it. The countryside was destroyed. And we still had the Swedes occupying the country. Whereupon yours truly hit upon a couple of winning ideas.

1. Marry rich, repeatedly. Procreate
2. Invite the Dutch in. They're good at trading. Also, start with a Dutch princess.
3. Invite French Huguenots in. Louis XIV has just kicked them out, they need a new country, I need skilled people who owe me everything. Win win!
4. Invite the Jews in. See above points.
5. Once we have goods to trade with, get involved in the overseas trade. By which I absolutely mean the slave trade as well. Profit!

This worked out for me and Prussia. Alas, my first wife died. I married again. And then there were... difficulties.

Friedrich III of Brandenburg, later Friedrich I IN Prussia: Hi! I'm the much maligned grandpa of that sickly kid I hardly knew. Which is also how you can describe my relationiship with my father. Sickly, that is. I started out as the third son, with three more children after me. My wetnurse dropped me, and for the rest of my life I had an uneven shoulder. No, you don't see it on the portraits. That's not what I paid young Pesne for, after all. But they did call me Humpback Fritz. So, Dad was a bit embarassed of me, but he had my two older brothers at first. Did Dad consider he had enough of us? He did not. Instead, when my adored mother died, he married again. A total bitch who gave him plenty more sons and some daughters. Not to spoil anything, but we hated each other. Once my two older brother's died, we REALLY hated each other. And then my younger brother died, and I point blank accused her of poisoning hiim and refused to see Dad without a guarantee of personal safety and hostage exchange. Dad didn't take that well, but seriously? That woman had already persuaded him to part tiny Prussia into fours, with her sons getting as much territory as me. No way. In case anyone is wondering, I won that one. My stepbrothers later got palmed off calling themselves "Margraves of Swedt". Yep, those Schwedts. Aaaanyway, once I was the Prince Elector, I started plan Make Prussia a Kingdom. Which was expensive. I know my son and grandson were on my case for all the money I spent, but seriously? They'd still have been Margraves if I hadn't done that. Bribing the Emperor is expensive. Dress to impress wasn't just a motto, it was part of the Kingdom Prussia campaign. Now, my first much beloved wife died, and I had to marry again because I didn't have a son already. I got one from wife No. 2, though. Actually, I got two. Our first boy didn't make it beyond a year, but tiny terror FW? Couldn't keep him down.

Unfortunately, me and the wife got into arguments about how to educate him. What to emphasize and the like. You might say we sent mixed signals. Which is why he had a time out in Hannover with his cousins. I mean, it seemed like a good idea at the time! Kids his age! He'd make future friends! Did he ever. When he wasn't beating up his cousins, he was swalling golden shoe laces. We had to take him back. And then he freaked me out by having his own balance book, noting money expenses. I mean, which kid does that! Kid ask you for MORE money, they don't try to figure out how their household could spend less. May have been the result of making a strict Calvinist his teacher who scared the hell out of him with the predestination doctrine, but look, that kid had to be brought under control.

I was being an encouraging Dad, though. When he was ten, I gave him Wusterhausen. And would you believe it, but he turned that into a self sustaining estate. A plus achievement, son. I might have had trouble communicating this, though, because welll, he was just somewhat embarassing to look at, not wanting to get into the proper baroque representation spirit. So I thought, hey, marriage will do the trick! One can always rely on the ladies to encourage a man to dress well and look his best. Since I had done nicely in that regard with his mother, a Hannover princess, I thought, might as well go for another one of those for my boy. And hey, maybe it would make the Hannover in laws get over the fact he beat up his other cousin as a kid! Win win!

Look, I know his dress sense remained abysmall, but one thing you can't accuse me of: lack of trying. After all, we all want only the best for our kids.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Our Insane Family: The Prequel Years

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2019-12-03 11:49 pm (UTC)(link)
Good lord. Also, I love his voice in this. You do such good character voices. (Trenck's "protesting too much" was brilliant!)

mostly at Küstrin - yes, that one - because it's a mighty fortress

Yep. Mighty fortresses are useful for when you want to keep anyone from hurting your kid, and also for when you want to keep them from rescuing your kid while you hurt him.

tiny terror FW? Couldn't keep him down

LOLOLOL You have a way with words.

So, Dad was a bit embarassed of me
he was just somewhat embarassing to look at

*grimace*

Mildred's "everyone had PtSD at each other since the 30 Years War at least" theory.

I'm just applying an actualfax historian's theory; I wish I had come up with it. The moment I stopped to think about it in those terms, I was like, well, yeah, at what point in history have people regularly *not* been surrounded by war, poverty, and disease? We only got epidemics under control, in parts of the world, in the last century. Poverty is a bigger producer of PTSD than child abuse. Shakespeare does a pretty good depiction of PTSD in a warrior returning home. And exactly when does having PTSD make good parenting easier? Individual good parents with PTSD, absolutely. Widespread PTSD weighting the scales in favor of good parenting on a species level? Hell no.

That view of history caused me to read this passage from Diana Gabaldon (an interesting but not always accurate writer of time-travel historical fiction--if you haven't read her books, you may know her work from the TV show Outlander) in a completely new light. The viewpoint character was born in 1917, during WWI and the year before the Spanish flu. The man she's talking to was born in the 1700s.

“Brianna was born seven years after penicillin came into common use. She was born in America—not this one”—I nodded toward the window again—“but that one, that will be. There, it isn’t usual for lots of people to die of contagious illness.”

“Do you remember the first person you knew of who had died?”

His face went blank with surprise, then sharpened, thinking. After a moment, he shook his head.

“My brother was the first who was important, but I kent others before him, surely.”

“I can’t remember, either.” My parents, of course; their deaths had been personal—but born in England, I had lived in the shadow of cenotaphs and memorials, and people just beyond the bounds of my own family died regularly; I had a sudden vivid memory, of my father putting on a homburg and dark coat to go to the baker’s wife’s funeral.

Mrs. Briggs, her name had been. But she hadn’t been the first; I knew already about death and funerals. How old had I been then—four, perhaps?

“I think Frank’s was the first death Brianna ever experienced personally [her father when she was about eighteen]. Maybe there were others; I can’t be sure. But the point is—”

“I see the point.”
selenak: (Default)

Re: Our Insane Family: The Prequel Years

[personal profile] selenak 2019-12-04 07:24 am (UTC)(link)
You do such good character voices. (Trenck's "protesting too much" was brilliant!)

Thank you. :) Mind you, I had assistance from Trenck himself, who protests a lot of how innocent and naive he was. Well, his description of the second Silesian War was just poor poor Fritz gallantly wanting to save the poor robbed of his Homeland Karl Abrecht of Wittelsbach certainly is… innocent… yeah.

Incidentally, so what do you think we have here? Another case of Fritz lusting after someone who has something with one of his younger siblings? Fritz sincerely thinks Trenck sold him out to the Austrians despite being until then a favored and trusted officer? Fritz jumps on that excuse? Trenck, despite having a sweet deal going on in Prussia, DID spy for the Austrians? I certainly think it's possible; he protests such an awful lot, he was young and adrenaline addicted, that's a good condition for doing stupid things. Also all this "you owe me!" insistence to the Habsburgs later - what exactly did they owe him, if he wasn't spying? Those few years of service between Glatz and Danzig didn't involve any great efforts, other than going to Russia and having another affair.

I do suspect one reason why Fritz was a very bad enlightened monarch and didn't even give him a proper trial - which even FW did for Katte, only to override the sentence, to be sure, but he did give him a trial first - was because he thought Trenck the bragger wouldn't be able to resist bringing up Amalie. And regardless of how much or little Fritz felt for his youngest sister at that point, that would have wrecked her marriage chances for good. That she would never marry at all was not something anyone could have foreseen back then. Though it's interesting that Fritz never forced her to. Question: If Wilhelmine hadn't already been married when FW died, would Fritz have married her off? Or would the combination of her being in her early 30s - and thus for her contemporaries no longer desirable marriage material, though the occasional match for royal women at that age did still happen - and her being his favourite sister have meant a life time in Prussia?

Mighty fortresses are useful for when you want to keep anyone from hurting your kid, and also for when you want to keep them from rescuing your kid while you hurt him.

They're also useable for one's nieces-in-law. Was somewhat stunned to discover this bit from the fallout of FW2's first marriage, you know, the one where Fritz briefly discovers his inner feminist. To recapitulate:

Young future FW2: *in love with Wilhelmine Encke, daughter of trumpetter*
Fritz: You're the crown prince, so of course I ridicule you in public and bully you. And marry you off to a Braunschweig girl. Your aunt Charlotte's daughter Elisabeth is even beautiful and spirited, so consider yourself lucky.

FW 2 & Elisabeth: *dislike on sight*

FW2: *cheats, continues affair with Wilhelmine Encke*

Elisabeth: *cheats, has affairs with various officers because fuck that, she's not going to take this lying down like her precedessors as crown princess*

Friederike, baby of uncertain paternity: *is born

Elisabeth: *pregnant again*

Heinrich: *throws a mask ball*

Courtier to future FW during said masked ball, i.e. at a public occasion": So, your wife? Total ho!

FW: Uncle Fritz, watch me show of the education you gave me. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion. I am sadly forced to ask you to allow me to divorce my wife.

Fritz: Dear Charlotte, it's all our idiot nephew's fault for neglecting his wife's charms, I mean, what kind of royal bastard does that to his wife? But anyway. Literal bastards are a no go for the line of succession, so divorce it'll have to be. Mind taking your daughter back?

Charlotte: I do mind. She's disgraced me and my family. Do with her what you want, I am not taking her back.

(Me: Ooookay. Definitely your parents' daughter here, Charlotte.)

Fritz: Küstrin comes to mind for some reason. Elisabeth, sorry, I actually like you, but you're going to spend some months there to cool off. Then you're allowed to go to Stettin and retire to a country mansion, but you'll have to stay there. Also, Louise is going to raise your kid Friederike. You can keep the other one.

Elisabeth: *has miscarriage in Küstrin, then goes off to Stettin*

*flash forward to FW2 ascending to the throne*

FW2: Dear Liz, seeing as you are the mother of my eldest daughter and I'm no longer married to you but to another wife I didn't want, I think enough is enough. You can come to the capital if you like. Or go home to Braunschweig if you want.

Elisabeth: Thanks but no thanks. I like it here in Stettin. As for Braunschweig, when I eventually die at 92, outliving you all, there will be a clause in my Last Will stating that under no circumstances is my dead body going to lie among that lot, because fuck you, Mom, for not taking me back. Hohenzollern are the worst, forever and ever.

Diana Gabaldon: have read the first of those novels, know who she is, have even seen her in person at a Bavarian book festival.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Our Insane Family: The Prequel Years

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2019-12-05 01:55 am (UTC)(link)
Incidentally, so what do you think we have here?

Ahahaha, I'm flattered that you think I have anything to contribute, just like I'm flattered you thought I could make sense of the Marwitz letters.

I agree it's far from impossible that Trenck might have been up to *something* for the Austrians. He's always given off shady vibes for me, but, you know, innocent until proven guilty.

I kinda doubt it was *just* Fritz lusting after him. I feel like he had grounds of suspicion (if only in his own head) for Amalie, spying, or both, to get that kind of reaction. But who knows?

*throws up hands*

he thought Trenck the bragger wouldn't be able to resist bringing up Amalie. And regardless of how much or little Fritz felt for his youngest sister at that point, that would have wrecked her marriage chances for good.

This makes perfect sense.

Question: If Wilhelmine hadn't already been married when FW died, would Fritz have married her off?

Remember when we we were discussing the "FW retires to a religious hermit life" AU? And my gut reaction was "I have to imagine step 1 is: Fritz summons Wilhelmine to court for Very Important Reasons and just never lets her go again"? That's still my gut reaction to what happens if Wilhelmine is unmarried when Fritz inherits at whatever age. My guess is Wilhelmine, honorary man that she is, falls into the category of beloved friends who he will be very unhappy about if they start showing interest in being married to anyone except *him*. I mean, unless you think there's a political alliance that Fritz both could have gotten through her and would have wanted badly enough...he *could* be ruthless as king and override his personal wishes. But I think it would take a lot. And as you say, 30+ year-old Wilhelmine doesn't have kings falling all over themselves for her face or her childbearing prospects. I say Fritz keeps her.

FW: Uncle Fritz, watch me show of the education you gave me. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion."

Fritz: Dear Charlotte, it's all our idiot nephew's fault for neglecting his wife's charms, I mean, what kind of royal bastard does that to his wife?


Elisabeth: fuck you, Mom, for not taking me back. Hohenzollern are the worst, forever and ever.

+1
selenak: (Default)

Re: Our Insane Family: The Prequel Years

[personal profile] selenak 2019-12-05 07:15 am (UTC)(link)
...and now that I'm reading Lehndorf's diary, I just came across an entry where he's all "our princes are the best! I mean, the Saxons are dumb as nails, Wüttemberg, eh, Palatinate, haven't produced anything interesting in the last century, Braunschweigs I guess I have so say are alright, seeing whom I'm nominally working for, but I immediately add saying they're alright because they're so closely related to ours that you can't judge them as a separate entity, but how wonderful,how superior to all other Germans are the Hohenzollerns!"

Look, I know you've got it bad for Heinrich, Lehndorf, and you're still hoping Fritz will promote you from his wife's Hhousehold into his own, but SERIOUSLY? That's patriotism gone too far.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Our Insane Family: The Prequel Years

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2019-12-05 07:27 am (UTC)(link)
I mean, *I* always thought the Hohenzollerns were the best, from my safe popcorn-munching remove, but if you have to *live* with them? Hell no, that's crazy talk.

It's like that ancient Chinese German curse goes: may you live with an interesting family.

(Wikipedia tells me it's not actually Chinese.)

ETA: Oh, and in case it's not obvious to [personal profile] cahn (forgive me if it is), "Braunschweig" is "Brunswick" in English.
Edited 2019-12-05 07:30 (UTC)
selenak: (Default)

Re: Our Insane Family: The Prequel Years

[personal profile] selenak 2019-12-05 01:11 pm (UTC)(link)
may you live with an interesting family.

Precisely. so, when EC finally seems to lose her patience and reminds Lehnsdorff that his job description isn't "crushing on Prince Heinrich" or "hanging out with the divine trio" and he's supposed to attend her more, and he's mentally all "yeah, but you're boring!", I on the one hand can see where he's coming from: EC is bound to be more dull than Hohenzollern drama. And I know whom I'd rather read about if I must choose. But on the other hand: for God's sake and for the sake of your emotional and mental health, Lehnsdorff, treasure what you have! EC is nice! It's easy money!

(Of course, it doesn't help that when he took the job he did so under the delusion he'd see lots of the King whom he's very curious about and wants to serve directly. Naturally, then he has to find out that working for the Queen is a guarantee to see as little of the King as possible.)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Lehndorff

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2019-12-05 07:44 am (UTC)(link)
Also, Lehndorff fell in love with an English aristocrat, Sir. Charles Hotham, and wanted to join him in England. But as a Prussian, he had to ask the King's permission to leave the country. Fritz said no. "I cry, and I cry, and I cry," Lehndorff writes. No reason given for the refusal, but I think we all know the real reason is: "If *I* can't go to England with my lover, *nobody* gets to go to England with their lover."

So I knew the name Hotham was ringing a bell, and I thought I recognized it from the English double marriage negotiations. Sure enough, it was Sir Charles Hotham, 5th Baronet of Scorborough, who makes so many appearances in Wilhelmine's memoirs as the English envoy, and who in the end fails to convince FW to let Fritz and Wilhelmine to marry their cousins. Judging by the dates, Lehndorff's Sir Charles Hotham must have been the 8th baronet, the nephew of the 5th, bearing the same name.

Oh, Fritz.
selenak: (Default)

Re: Lehndorff

[personal profile] selenak 2019-12-05 01:21 pm (UTC)(link)
:( Yeah, this.

On a more cheerful note, must share this latest detail: remember when I mentioned Wilhelmine had composed an opera version of Voltaire's play Semiramis (that he shopped around for a while before it could get staged)? What the content was?

Now, see below, in 1753, SD got the premiere performance of her son's opera "Sulla" for her Birthday. In 1754... she gets Wilhelmine's "Semiramis".

Writes Lehndorff: "What a strange choice for a birthday celebration. The opening image is that of a tomb, and it is about a son murdering his mother in revenge."

Fritz uses his younger siblings for self therapy. Wilhelmine clearly uses operas. That is so marvellously passive-aggressive, I have no words. And of course lost on Lehnsdorff entirely.

Re: Lehndorff

[personal profile] selenak - 2019-12-06 12:38 (UTC) - Expand
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Our Insane Family: The Prequel Years

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2019-12-05 09:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Letting people go: not Fritz's strong point. I mean, kicking them to the curb, yes. But letting them out of arm's reach when he still wants them? That's in Interpersonal Relations 102, which he never even got through the 101 course.
selenak: (Default)

Re: Trenck affair, continued

[personal profile] selenak 2019-12-06 04:50 am (UTC)(link)
Trenck: definitely great as the life of the party, less so as someone you want to have an affair with. Mind you, supposedly he wrote a pamphlet to comment on Mirabeau's trashy tell all, though whether to support or counter Mirabeau's claims on the royal family, his wiki entry doesn't say. (And the Gutenberg edition of his memoirs don't, either.)

Wait, so, was this actually the case?

Over to Mildred. I have no idea whether or not the fact that Prussian Trenck became Austrian Trenck's universal heir settled his guilt in Fritz' eyes. Trenck himself thinks so, because he also claims he later found out his one year in Glatz was just supposed to be some loyalty test from Fritz and if he hadn't escaped and gone to Vienna then, he totally would have been released just a few days later and reinstated. He does not tell us who exactly told him this Fritzian plan.

As you might guess, Trenck/Amalie proved irresistable to 19th century novelist and 20 century scriptwriters. The latest of many efforts is called "Zwei Herzen gegen die Krone" - "Two hearts against a crown" - and no, I haven't watched it, but the internet tells me that here, the two even get a happy ending as Fritz relents at the end and allows Amalie to leave Prussia with Trenck.

...somehow the fictional Amalie/Friedemann subplot in "Mein Name ist Bach" complete with Fritz/Friedemann UST scene strikes me as more realistic...
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Trenck affair, continued

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2019-12-07 03:30 am (UTC)(link)
I, a naive innocent, believed it was cousinly feeling that made him make me his heir, but really, it was because he knew Fritz would never believe I was innocent if I accepted the heritage!

Wait, so, was this actually the case?

Over to Mildred. I have no idea whether or not the fact that Prussian Trenck became Austrian Trenck's universal heir settled his guilt in Fritz' eyes.


If we're asking what Fritz thought, I can speculate. If we're asking what the Trencks were up to, LOLOLOL I have no idea, no one I know of has any idea. Those two are such shady characters. I had to read up on Austrian Trenck as part of research for my fic set at Soor, the battle where Austrian Trenck was busy plundering Fritz's camp instead of fighting, was accused of letting Fritz escape capture, and returned Prussian cousin Trenck's horses, thus leading to suspicions that Austrian Trenck was working for the Prussians and that Prussian Trenck was working for the Austrians, omg, you guys.

With them, it really becomes a question of what you should attribute to malice and what to incompetence. Austrian Trenck keeps giving things to Prussian Trenck. Because Austrian Trenck has Prussian sympathies? Because he's trying to implicate Prussian Trenck as an Austrian spy? Because he's an idiot? Neither of these two seems to have any common sense at all, which is how they both end up in and out of prisons and death sentences.

As for what Fritz thought, honestly, I'm sure it didn't help, but my gut instinct is that it was a drop in the bucket of reasons Fritz had for suspecting this guy of, like, everything that had ever happened in the history of ever. Fritz is ready to believe the worst to begin with, and this guy gives off vibes even to me, and god help him if Fritz *had* been attracted to him, because hell hath no fury, and...yeah.

...somehow the fictional Amalie/Friedemann subplot in "Mein Name ist Bach" complete with Fritz/Friedemann UST scene strikes me as more realistic...

Somehow I agree. "You're always saying in your country everyone has freedom of the penis, but by 'everyone' you mean 'you'."
selenak: (Default)

Re: Trenck affair, continued

[personal profile] selenak 2019-12-07 06:27 am (UTC)(link)
Neither of these two seems to have any common sense at all, which is how they both end up in and out of prisons and death sentences.

No kidding. It strikes me as a not so minor miracle that Prussian Trenck lived long enough to get himself beheaded by French Revolutionaries after name dropping how MT personally got him out of prison.

Austrian Trenck made it into the movies as well, btw, though not as often as Prussia Trenck. Otoh, Austrian Trenck's movie has him played by the (very unAustrian and NorthGerman) Hans Albers, the male sex symbol of his day, so there was that.

How famous was Prussian Trenck for his shenanigans and his memoirs (which, as I'll remind you, he started publishing during the last years of Fritz' life), though? So famous that Lorenzo da Ponte, in his memoirs half a century later, thinks he can throw shade at Casanova by (wrongly) claiming Casanova shamelessly ripped off Trenck's story and even titled his memoirs "The Second Trenck".

(DaPonte had a (one sided) competitive thing going on with Casanova in general, more on Da Ponte below because it belongs in the Mozart/Salieri thread.)

Basically the one thing Prussian Trenck undoubtedly achieved was making later 17th century readers, out of and in Prussia, going "OMG! What a gallant fellow! How could Fritz be so heartless? And that's totally one of the sisters, amirite?" Which is probably what FW2 gave him the pension for, along with feeling for the guy because those years chained to a wall in Magdeburg truly do sound horrid.) (I guess that's why MT asked for his release as part of the peace talks.)

One more Trenck thing: he hadn't completely given up on his idea of getting money out of the Habsburgs that did not come in the shape of a rich widow by the time he settled down in Aachen and got married. He then tried to pull this one:

Trenck: Dear Joseph, congratulations on your mother's death and finally achieved single rule, your majesty! Now, it just so happens I've become a Dad, and you know what I've decided my boy will be called? JOSEPH! Of course, you'll totally become his godfather and send appropriate gifts and MONEY on a regular basis, right?

Joseph: Dear Baron Trenck, congratulations on the birth of your son, thanks for the unasked for honor of naming him after me. I wish you two all the best for the future. Yours not at all, Joseph.

Trenck: ...and that, dear readers, was that from Joseph. WHAT A HEARTLESS BASTARD!

Re: Trenck affair, continued

[personal profile] selenak - 2019-12-10 13:10 (UTC) - Expand
selenak: (Default)

Re: Trenck affair, continued

[personal profile] selenak 2019-12-07 10:40 am (UTC)(link)
Okay, have asked YouTube, and it seems there's also a five part straightforward tv adaption of Trenck's bestselling memoirs which is unknown to me. Enjoy the trailer, which speaks for itself even in German:

They are so going for a sibling love triangle in this one!

ETA: And a Trenck Music vid based on "Zwei Herzen gegen eine Krone" (Two hearts against a Crown) (That one is straight, by contrast.)

Not to be outdone, Austrian Trenck got his own open air theatre Festival play with trailer:

Trenck the Pandur trailer - theatre edition

And there's the old black and White movie:

Trenck the Pandur trailer - Hans Albers Edition (co-starring MT in the later section)
Edited 2019-12-07 10:53 (UTC)

Re: Trenck affair, continued

[personal profile] selenak - 2019-12-17 06:38 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Trenck affair, continued

[personal profile] selenak - 2019-12-18 02:40 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Trenck affair, continued

[personal profile] selenak - 2019-12-18 07:09 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Trenck affair, continued

[personal profile] selenak - 2019-12-29 15:41 (UTC) - Expand
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Trenck affair, continued

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2019-12-07 03:34 am (UTC)(link)
LOL! Now I want fic where everyone we're talking about has hilarious Opinions about what historians say (I guess this is the reincarnation fic mildred is writing)

Lol, "writing" is overstating it a bit. "Imagining" might be more accurate, but Fritz definitely has *opinions*. Katte is just like, "EEEEE I made it into a big-name opera where I'm the hero! :D :D :D Be quiet, Fritz, I know this kind of thing happens to you all the time. Don't rain on my parade."
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: FW2's first marriage

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2019-12-06 04:13 am (UTC)(link)
Fritz from the beyond: Look, people. My wife has no charms! And I'm not that way inclined anyway. Nephew has no such excuse.

Fritz: *goes back to the beyond*
selenak: (Default)

What do Prussian Kings want?

[personal profile] selenak 2019-12-04 07:57 am (UTC)(link)

So, Dad was a bit embarassed of me
he was just somewhat embarassing to look at

*grimace*


Trust you to catch that. When I learned about F1 being dropped as a baby and as a result spending his life with a broken shoulder, being called "der schiefe Fritz" by his people, I thought that illustrates how you can never trust court paintings, among so many other things. Him being on such bad terms with his father that he wanted a guarantee he wouldn't get murdered the last time he visited him was a non-surprise, too.

And he *wanted* better quality relationships, including with various members of his family (not including EC), and couldn't always figure out how.

(From your reply to my Heinrich comment in the earlier post.)

This is as good a place as any to discuss this: what did he want out of his family relationships? I mean, emotionally; the political aspects - AW as crown prince, the sisters as useful for alliances, Heinrich turning out to be a gifted general and diplomat - are clear and would have been there for any King of and in Prussia, they weren't Fritz specific. Since he must have figured out rather early on he would not have children of his own, did he see them - given the huge age gap between him and the younger ones especially - mostly as the kids he wouldn't have and wanted them to treat him as a replacement father (only better)? Did he seek out the kind of companionship he had with Wilhelmine when they were children and tried to recreate it with them? Both? Either? What?
Edited 2019-12-04 11:00 (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: What do Prussian Kings want?

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2019-12-08 01:56 am (UTC)(link)
Trust you to catch that.

:D [personal profile] cahn can tell you from our Tillerman discussions, cross-referencing is a strong point of mine.

what did he want out of his family relationships? I mean, emotionally;

Oh, boy. This is probably not something that has a simple answer. The first thing that comes to mind is that his taking over their education is probably exactly him trying to be a replacement father, only better. I mean, aside from his convictions about education being objectively necessary, he was giving them something he'd had to fight for, and I think he expected gratitude in return. Furthermore, he was an inveterate advice-giver to all and sundry, and I think he had good intentions there even when completely obliviousness. I think as older brother and surrogate father (and eventual uncle) he intended to graciously pass on the benefits of his hard-earned wisdom to them.

Companionship: yes, probably, especially as they got older. (Wilhelmine is a given here.) Heinrich outliving him was evidently a godsend here.

Affection: I think this was a big one. Fritz craved affection all his life and could never seem to get enough, possibly related to the number of people he did not treat in such a way as to inspire affection, or consistent affection (I am struck by the number of people who left and came back, because they found him irresistible even when dysfunctional).

And because of his control issues: not feeling threatened ever. This is, I believe, why he so thoroughly isolated them, his mother, his wife, everyone, from the center of power, and only let them approach it from a distance later on, insofar as he felt safe doing so. It is impossible to overestimate Fritz's fear of losing even a tiny bit of control.

Oh, Fritz. You can see he tried, you can see he more or less succeeded with some of the family members, but wow were some of those relationships disastrous.

Family therapy and hugs for everyone.