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Yuletide tags are out: Frederician version
Come join us in this crazy Frederick the Great fandom and learn more about all these crazy associated people, like the star-crossed and heartbreaking romance between Maria Theresia's daughter Maria Christina and her daughter-in-law Isabella, wow.
OK, so, there are FOURTEEN characters nominated:
Anna Karolina Orzelska (Frederician RPF)
Elisabeth Christine von Preußen | Elisabeth Christine Queen of Prussia (Frederician RPF)
Francesco Algarotti (Frederician RPF)
François-Marie Arouet | Voltaire (Frederician RPF)
Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great (Frederician RPF)
Hans Hermann Von Katte (Frederician RPF)
Joseph II Holy Roman Emperor (Frederician RPF)
Maria Theresia | Maria Theresa of Austria (Frederician RPF)
Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf (Frederician RPF)
Peter Karl Christoph von Keith (Frederician RPF)
Sophia Dorothea of Hanover (Frederician RPF)
Stanisław August Poniatowski (Frederician RPF)
Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758) (Frederician RPF)
Yekatarina II Alekseyevna | Catherine the Great of Russia (Frederician RPF)
This means some fourth person kindly nominated Algarotti and -- I think? -- Stanislaw August Poniatowski! YAY! Thank you fourth person! Come be our friend! :D Yuletide is so great!
I am definitely requesting Maria Theresia, Wilhelmine, and Fritz (Put them in a room together. Shake. How big is the explosion?), and thinking about Elisabeth Christine, but maybe not this year.
I am also declaring this post another Frederician post, as the last one was getting out of hand. I think I'll still use that one as the overall index to these, though, to keep all the links in one place.
(seriously, every time I think the wild stories are done there is ANOTHER one)
OK, so, there are FOURTEEN characters nominated:
Anna Karolina Orzelska (Frederician RPF)
Elisabeth Christine von Preußen | Elisabeth Christine Queen of Prussia (Frederician RPF)
Francesco Algarotti (Frederician RPF)
François-Marie Arouet | Voltaire (Frederician RPF)
Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great (Frederician RPF)
Hans Hermann Von Katte (Frederician RPF)
Joseph II Holy Roman Emperor (Frederician RPF)
Maria Theresia | Maria Theresa of Austria (Frederician RPF)
Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf (Frederician RPF)
Peter Karl Christoph von Keith (Frederician RPF)
Sophia Dorothea of Hanover (Frederician RPF)
Stanisław August Poniatowski (Frederician RPF)
Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758) (Frederician RPF)
Yekatarina II Alekseyevna | Catherine the Great of Russia (Frederician RPF)
This means some fourth person kindly nominated Algarotti and -- I think? -- Stanislaw August Poniatowski! YAY! Thank you fourth person! Come be our friend! :D Yuletide is so great!
I am definitely requesting Maria Theresia, Wilhelmine, and Fritz (Put them in a room together. Shake. How big is the explosion?), and thinking about Elisabeth Christine, but maybe not this year.
I am also declaring this post another Frederician post, as the last one was getting out of hand. I think I'll still use that one as the overall index to these, though, to keep all the links in one place.
(seriously, every time I think the wild stories are done there is ANOTHER one)
Re: Alternate universes where everyone is at least incrementally more happy
Oh, Voltaire. But him being an asshole is to be expected. MacDonogh, in 1999, writes, "It is highly doubtful that she in any way merited the savage treatment meted out to her after Frederick’s flight." I mean...what exactly do you think would have merited that savage treatment, author? Murder? If you mean "she didn't do the things FW thought she did," say so. This is at best a very infelicitous phrasing; at worst, you and I have radically different values.
you know some incest shipping would happen these days regardless
Oh, of course, and I'm fine with it being a niche interest. I just don't want it being one of the major ways fandom has to deal with a no-homo-ing canon. (Suspect it'd still be a minority approach, but probably more common than if canon left out the Wilhelmine/Katte pairing.)
Meanwhile, the entire justification for anyone assuming Wilhelmine/Katte I can see is that Katte did have a double portrait of both siblings, but against that is Wilhelmine's stated distrust and antipathy and, well, Katte's everything else. Not that reality ever stopped any shippers.
Very true. The real reason here is "heteronormativity."
I've often wondered about that double portrait. Platonic admiration on Katte's part? Attraction? (She and Fritz had enough in common, especially at that age, that if you like one, you might well end up liking the other, platonically or romantically.) Trying to make nice to her because she's so important in Fritz's life? Seriously worried about her ability to turn Fritz away from him?
Love the Voltaire anecdote, thanks for sharing! I am now through the first ~18 months of Fritz and Algarotti knowing each other, and will try to put together a summary soon that's informative, if not entertaining. (And entertaining if the muses are with me; otherwise, you get copy-pasta from a dissertation.)
Catherine: Lol!
Re: Alternate universes where everyone is at least incrementally more happy
Well, naturally. At my conference, I talked with Mr. Pleschinski some more, the Fritz/Voltaire correspondance translator mentioned below, and he totally ships them, not least because "They so thoroughly deserve each other".
MacDonogh, in 1999, writes, "It is highly doubtful that she in any way merited the savage treatment meted out to her after Frederick’s flight." I mean...what exactly do you think would have merited that savage treatment, author? Murder? If you mean "she didn't do the things FW thought she did," say so. This is at best a very infelicitous phrasing; at worst, you and I have radically different values.
No kidding. Public whippings and three years harsh imprisonment are barbaric by any standard. I just hope Doris Ritter was happy with her spice trader later and not too bothered by voyeuristic tourists like Voltaire showing up.
Now, YouTube turns out to actually have Der Thronfolger, albeit sans English subtitles, 60 minutes per episode, two episodes uploaded into one folder (so YouTube has two, read: four parts). I checked out the first sixty minutes, seeing it for the first time since 1980, and it turns out to be actually pretty good, heteronormativity aside. (Which of course is a big aside. Peter Keith does not exist, for example.) It starts immediately post Katte's execution, with the Küstrin pastor writing to FW the "for God's sake, relent on your son" letter, while the camera pans to a devastated, silent Fritz lying there, and then we get the entire rest of the show in flashback, so to speak, going back to child Fritz. The childhood section ends at about 13 minutes and does a good job getting across Hohenzollern (and Hannover) dysfunctionality. It goes thusly:
Little Fritz: flawlessly declaims a section from the gospels about Jesus subjecting himself to the well of his father
FW: *is pleased with his son, for the last time in a loooong while*
Morning breakfeast chez Hohenzollern: *marital warfare ensues, SD and FW use Fritz and Wilhelmine as weapons against each other, the argument also is exposition for why SD wants those British marriages so much*
FW dines with army chaps and male courtiers and a visibly ever more uncomfortable Fritz, extolling on manly virtues
George I: *state visits*
SD: This is my daughter, Dad, the future queen of England!
G1: A bit strong for her age.
SD: But Dad, you know I used to have the tiniest waist in Europe! (Notes to self: make Wilhelmine lose weight.)
G1: you want to be queen of England, girl?
W: Yes.
G1: Despite not having met my no good grandson, offspring of my lousy son?
W: Yes.
G1: Hm. And you, Fritz, what do you want from your future?
F: I want to be a philosopher.
G1: Well, that would be a first in both our families, eh, son-in-law?
FW: *has been seething in the background so far, but as soon as G1's back is turned* *explodes*
FW: *shouts at Fritz' tutors, fires one, pus the other on notice*
F: *sneaks out of his rooms at night, which btw shows that princes don't sleep alone but with household staff present, meets up with Wilhelmine, a book and a candle*
F & W: *read together from a French play on a classical subject*
*camera transitions from them as children to them as teens - F is 15, W is 17, soon to be 18 - declaiming the same lines at each other (the transformation into older F & W also gives them pet dogs without this getting pointed out)*
If you want to watch those first 13 minutes as a kind of silent-to-you movie, here they are. (BTW, lol at whoever filed Der Thronfolger under "German fairy tale movies and movies for children".
The rest of the first episode goes thusly:
SD's salon, with W & F playing music, SD schemes with British ambassador, French ambassador talks to both F & W about Voltaire, F when French ambassador slightly chides him for not taking royal duties serious enough says au contraire, he's got plans "which will surprise a lot of people* before going back to beind a wide eyed Voltaire fanboy*
*Seckendorff & Grumpkow: meet up and scheme, in an exposition scene where we learn about the Austrian interest, why they're anti British marriage project, and Prince Eugene & Emperor Charles (MT's dad) being willing to spend money on foiling same.
Seckendorff: proceeds to broadly hint to FW his wife is scheming against him with the Brits
FW: I hear you.
*another dysfunctional Hollenzollern family breakfeast with marital warfare and F & W used as weapons: *ensues*
FW: *inspects his latest Long Fellows*
F: *all but signals he finds this boring*
FW: *loses temper*
FW: Here are two manly chaps from my army, not long fellows but good Prussian nobility, who are supposed to teach you how to value the militar more, Lieutenant Forget About Him and Lieutenant Katte!
Katte: *as soon as FW has left, casually drops hidden Voltaire volume from his waistcoat*
F: OMG you like Voltaire, too! *heart eyes* (This meeting happens around 30 minutes into the first ep, but Katte only has this and one more scene in this first episode)
SD: Schemes some more with British ambassador*
F: *secretly visits guy who buys forbidden to him books for him*
Guy: I've got two more volumes, but then I ran out of cash.
F: And I'm already in your debt! Damn, I need to find a source for money somehow!
Katte: *enters secret book hideout with his second scene in this ep* Good news! Your father takes you on the state visit to Dresden, your highness, King August insisted! You'll finally get a break from Prussia. And it's carnival at a Catholic court, too. You'll have fun. "The King and the crown prince of Sparta will visit Athens." (Literal quote from episode)
F: Hooray! My life is finally getting better, Hans. (Yep, this is another version where he's Hans-ing him to signal to the audience they've become friends; Otoh, Katte says "my prince" and "your highness")
State visit to Dresden: Ensues, complete with party times and orgy in as much as German 1980 tv law allows
FW and F: *are wide eyed, with even FW enjoying himself at first*
F: *also says hello to Quantz, introduced at this point as working in Dresden*
Orzelska: *is also introduced to the audience by gossiping courtiers as both August's bastard daughter and mistress*
Orzelska & Fritz: *catch each other's eyes while their fathers have a drinking competition*
August: *presents anonymous nude lady*
FW: *makes a step in her direction*
F: *makes two steps in her direction*
FW *has belated reality check* OMG! Fritz, avert your eyes! *drags his son outta there* OMG! Fritz, this is a really evil place! I only was playing along to be diplomatic, don't forget that when your mother asks!
F: Right. BTW, can't help but notice everyone is happy here.
FW: They're decadent. Also, Prussia is a poor country and we could never afford throwing money around like that. *Passes out*
Court dwarf: *beckons F to O*
F: imitates a French Rokoko novel in his instant Orzelska wooing; since he doesn't sound like that in the rest of the episode, including in his subsequent scenes with her, I'm assuming this is an intentional signal on the script's part that he's quoting and while being attracted essentially role playing*
F & O: *have sex, not shown, it's just signaled by closing bedroom door*
*transition to*
F, gleefully telling W about his Dresden adventures: ...and then August practically offered all the pretty women of the court to me if I leave Anna alone! He regards me as a rival!
W: So she's his mistress.
F: Yep.
W: While being his daughter.
F: Indeed.
W: That's disgusting.
F: *shrugs* Anything goes. I'm a sophisticated man of the world now, I don't mind. Hey, how about a pillow fight, sis?
F & W: have a pillow fight and general kid around, until footsteps are heard, annoucing FW with doctor in tow is on his way:
F: *poses as being ill* I know August will state visit soon, but I feel so exhausted from that decadent court, Dad, I'd rather not see all those immoral people again. I'm really ill!
FW: *has the second time in this ep where he approves of Fritz* Finally, my moral lessons bear fruit! Good boy. Recover soon!
W & F: *break into giggles once he's gone; F reveals how he faked his fever via heating stone*
W:... but why did you bother, I mean, don't you want to see her again?
F: Yes, but in secret and alone. Please give her this letter.
O: *shows up dressed as a man a few hours later*
F: *in pointed contrast to earlier novel phrases* Wow. Anna. I say.
O: *does look very hot indeed in male attire, ravishes him*
F: I love you, please stay.
O: As what, exactly? Your mistress? In this state?
F: Um. As my wife? I'll totally marry you!
O: You're sweet. Leaving aside that you can't, since I'm a bastard...
F: I'd change the law!
O: You know what, you actually might. But not for me. You hardly know me.
F: Well, you can't go back to Dresden, can you? I mean... you can't.... "Do you love your father?" (*literal quote from episode*)
O: "Do you love yours?" (*also literal quote from ep*)
F: *says nothing*
O: Look, I brought you a farewell present! *calls Quantz into the room* (footnote: I assume this means Quantz has patiently been waiting the whole time in the antechamber?)
F: You're the best. *exit Orzelska from tale*
*transition to*
F, W & Quantz playing music together*
FW: *catches them at it*
FW: *explodes, abuses F both verbally and physically, ending with the infamous "you're a coward without honor, if my father had done this to me, I'd have killed him!"
W: *tries to comfort F*
F: I'll... do something. I don't know what yet. But something!
*End of first episode*
In addition to Fritz-at-Küstrin opening and childhood sequence covering the first 13 minutes, later particular points of interest:
26:46: Second dysfunctional Hohenzollern family meal of the ep begins (ends at 29: 58 when FW beats F out of the room)
30:35: Enter Katte
50:40: Fritz tells Wilhelmine all about being deflowered, totally beating August the Strong at sex, goofes around with his sister and fakes being ill for his father*
57:53: Orzelska presents Quantz as a farewell present, transition to F, W & Quantz getting caught by FW, FW losing it and W trying to comfort F as the first episode ends*
Re: Alternate universes where everyone is at least incrementally more happy
Really? OMG, haha! I can totally see where he's coming from and that's hilarious, but my desire to Fix Everything in this fandom means I just want to give them both therapy and Remedial Interpersonal Relations 101 and let them try again. ;)
If you want to watch those first 13 minutes as a kind of silent-to-you movie, here they are.
This is awesome, and thanks so much for your summarizing/translation efforts! That's going way above and beyond for us non-German speakers. <3 I might check it out, even with the heteronormativity. It does sound like it manages to get a lot of things across.
Also, I have to say I laughed out loud at "silent-to-you movie." You know my foibles so well. ;)
sneaks out of his rooms at night, which btw shows that princes don't sleep alone but with household staff present, meets up with Wilhelmine, a book and a candle
Oh, good, yes. The difficulty of sneaking out to read is an important part of Fritz's childhood; he talks irl about how he got caught once, talked fast and gave the usual child-out-of-bed-after-hours excuse of "I needed to relieve myself" and didn't get in trouble, but didn't dare do it again, but then tried to make up for lost reading time in future years at Rheinsberg. Poor woobie teenage Fritz. I also used to sneak reading in at night, but at least my parents approved of my education in general, for the most part, and when they didn't, I only got yelled at, not beaten.
ending with the infamous "you're a coward without honor, if my father had done this to me, I'd have killed him!"
Ooh, interesting. The version I've always heard (aside from "I'd have run away") is "I'd have blown my brains out." FW taunting Fritz into killing *him*? FW, you are playing with fire and you are seriously lucky your son isn't Alexander and your wife is Olympia, not Olympias. ;)
BTW, lol at whoever filed Der Thronfolger under "German fairy tale movies and movies for children"
Uh, lol?
FW: Here are two manly chaps from my army, not long fellows but good Prussian nobility, who are supposed to teach you how to value the militar more, Lieutenant Forget About Him and Lieutenant Katte!
Katte: *as soon as FW has left, casually drops hidden Voltaire volume from his waistcoat*
F: OMG you like Voltaire, too! *heart eyes*
Hahahaha, omg, "Lieutenant Forget About Him" and also I love how FW is always trying to get people to either abuse his son or set a good example or both, and it almost never works, because FW is trying to swim upstream against the norms of his place and time. (I have a WIP where FW is like, "Look, this is Lieutenant Katte, who *used* to like literature and stuff, but now has gone straight and is here to show you the futility of your ways," and Katte is all, "So forbidden books, you acquire the money, I'll smuggle, we'll read together, cool?" Not knowing what's coming, they snicker at FW's obliviousness, because Katte is a very good chameleon, much better than Fritz.)
Re: Alternate universes where everyone is at least incrementally more happy
So, here's what happens in part II
Fritz: *tries to have a serious conversation with his father which starts with both of them attempting to reach out to the other and ends with FW exploding again, because the moment Fritz tries to proclaim his filial love, FW, who until that point actually has made an effort to explain royal responsibility and how Prussia is still a small state and what he hopes for the future, suspects his son is secretly mocking him, a lying liar who lies and starts with the abuse again*
FW: *orders F to come along on the next big hunting expedition*
F: *starts to get drunk on said expedition, grabs Seckendorf and plainly asks whether the Emperor would help him by inviting him or ordering him to take a journey RIGHT NOW*
Seckendorf: Um. Sure, we could do that for you. And help you out with some money for books. But you know what else would be cool? For you not to marry the King of England's daughter.
FW: Fritz, come here, be a man, drink some more!
F: *gets totally drunk, calls the Prussian uniform he wears a Sterbekittel (deathbed shroud), then declares he loves his father the tyrant anyway, really, DAD I LOVE YOU! *passes out*
FW: What the hell was that?
F: *is at secret hideout with books, meets Dorothea "Doris" Ritter*
D: I live downstairs and heard your wonderful flute playing. Let's make music together! I also write poetry.
F: You have great taste in music. From you, even German poetry is okay by me.
*Romance "The Prince and the shy, musically gifted middle class girl" ensues*
SD: My children, my day of triumph has finally dawned. Today, your father will receive the English ambassador and make both your marriages definite.
F: Err.
W: Fritz, this is our day! Freedom at last! They're going to make you governor of Hannover and you'll be away from Dad's supervision for good!
F: *does not protest or mention Doris to anyone ever again*
British ambassador: So, instead of us paying Princess Amelia a big dowry, she's getting Hannover itself in that your son is going to run it for us. Otoh, you won't have to pay a dowry for your daughter, either.
FW: Sounds good to me. You know, if you'd offered those terms, you could have had my daughter three years ago when she was a bit fresher and prettier than she's now. Women age so quickly, eh?
British ambassador: ...also, since we're doing all this in the spirit of British/Prussian harmony: dismiss Grumpkow, please. He's totally bribed by the Austrians and always hanging out with Seckendorff.
FW: How dare you insult my loyal servant Grumpkow!!! The marriages are off! *assaults British Ambassador, has to be pulled off him*
Katte: Bad news. Your father just assaulted the British ambassador.
F: Okay, Hans, get me a chat with the British ambassador alone, I NEED TO GET OUT OF HERE.
Katte: Dear Sir, before you talk to the crown prince: please keep him from doing something stupid.
F: So, if I were to, say, run off, and come to Uncle George, would you help me?
British Ambassador: Youth can be so romantic. I wish you all the best, your highness, but we're not starting a war with Prussia over you.
Keith: *exists after all, but only in this second part*
FW: *gets drunk with Grumpkow and Seckendorff*: You know, I actually regret that British marriage didn't work out. I hate him, he hates me, him being in Hannover would have given us a break from each other. Grumpkow, I don't get people. I wish I was a simple landowner, I could do that. Just as long as I don't have to understand what the hell that boy is thinking!
F: *thinks*
Katte: Your highness, here's a letter from your brother I wasn't supposed to give you until he's off with the King.
W: *reads* ZOMG! Oh no! What if he does do it this time!
Katte: Don't worry. I've told him how dangerous and ill advised this plan is. And then I took drastic measures. I'm his bff, after all, he won't desert without me, and I'm staying right here in Berlin. Which he knows. So he won't desert.
W: *literal quote* "You are very sure of my brother, Katte." ("Sie sind sich meines Bruders sehr sicher, Katte.")
Katte: Well, yeah.
W: *another literal quote from episode*: "Why is there all this bitterness between us, Hans?*
(Me: Okay, now you're Hans-ing him, too? And this Moment must be what I was misremembering.)
Katte: *touches her shoulder, sort of murmurs in her ear* No bitterness on my part. I have only respect for you*
*end of moment*
Meanwhile, on the road:
F: So, Keith, organize an escape horse for me. We're deserting.
Keith: *gulp*
Escape attempt: *fails*
Keith: *confesses all to FW*
FW vs F confrontation: *happens in several parts, including an almost son-stabbing prevented by loyal officer*
FW: *shows up at his wife's palace two minutes after his courier who was supposed to deliver a "prepare the Queen: this happened" letter to Frau von Ramen does, thus catches wife and daughter unawares*: Your son is dead!
SD: *breaks down*
FW:...to me, I mean he's dead to me!
W: what happened to Fritz?
FW: You are a traitor, too! *lunges, hair drags*
Frau von Ramen: Don't go Philipp and Peter the Great on us, your highness.
FW: I respect you for saying that. Take care of the queen. But as for you, Wilhelmine, punishment awaits!
*sadly, this is the last we see in this miniseries of Wilhelmine, this is how we leave her*
FW: *arrests Katte*
Katte: *is calm and loyal, but inadvertendly manages to let it slip Fritz owns books; Detective FW is on the case*
FW: *finds secret book hideout with poor Doris Ritter* : WHORE! Doctor and midwife, pay test that theory for me.
Doctor and midwife: Sorry, Sir, she's a virgin like she said she was.
FW: She stiill gets whipped in every public place in Potsdam and then locked up for life.
Doris Ritter: *exits this story*
FW: *paces up and down, and we soon realise he's waiting for a message from the war tribunal*
Grumpkow: Sorry, your highness, they sent it back again with the same conclusion.
FW: *has dialogue with Grumpkow consisting of literal quotes from his letters to the war tribunal*
Grumpkow: I just realise I'm the closest thing you have to a therapist in this tale, your majesty, and I'd just like to say, this isn't what I signed up for. Also, don't kill your son. I just think he'd make a better successor than the nice kid which comes next.
FW: But he needs to finally learn his lesson. Okay, I'll send some instructions with the Katte sentence.
F: Is sullen and pissed off but not repentant and clearly not expecting anything worse to happen than him getting locked up for a few months, until FW's letter arrives, upon which: NOOOOOOOOOOOO! I'll resign my sucession rights, I'll do anything! Let me talk to my father again!
Küstrin staff: Sorry, but that sentence will get carried out tomorrow morning.
Katte: *arrives at Küstrin*
Pastor from opening scene: *tries to comfort Fritz, then Katte*
FW and SD: have their only scene in both parts where they're not wearing wigs. Instead, a sleepless, dishevelled FW shows up in his wife's bedroom for the first time since years:
FW: I can't bear to be alone anymore. I only meant for the best, Fieke (Prussian nickname for "Sophie"), do you understand that? I only ever meant for the best. ("Ich wollte doch nur das Beste.") *stars sobbing*
SD: *stares in disbelief, relunctantly embraces husband*
A few hours later, Küstrin, early in the morning:
Fritz: *has to be dragged to the window, sobbing*
Katte: *is calm and collected*
Fritz: Forgive me!
Katte: No forgiveness necessary. This is God's will.
(Me: "This is God's will?" what happened to "I die for you with joy in my heart" or "It's easy to die for so sweet a prince"?)
Fritz: *faints*
Executioner: *swings*
Opening scene with the Pastor writing his letter to FW: *is repeated, ending on the close-up of Fritz' tormented face*
Credits: Tell us Fritz became King ten years after, and for the rest of his life was lonely and paranoid and the ruler who made Prussia into a European superpower with questionable means.
Scenes of particular note:
6:36: Fritz gets drunk at the hunting, talks to Seckendorff, gets more drunk and has his "I hate my life! I love you, Dad!" outburst. (W & SD are also present and watch with rising degrees of horror)
(30:50: the other drunk scene, FW with Seckendorff and Grumpkow has his "how is this my life? I don't get people" moment)
36:26: Wilhelmine and Katte are having their chat
44:07: First post-escape attempt FW vs F confrontation
50:52: FW shows up at SD's to arrest Katte and to deliver his "your son is dead" declaration
58:05: FW paces, waiting for Katte's sentence by tribunal, reacts when Grumpkow passes it on
107:18: Katte arrives at Küstrin.
Re: Alternate universes where everyone is at least incrementally more happy
Re: Alternate universes where everyone is at least incrementally more happy
Re: Alternate universes where everyone is at least incrementally more happy
Except for the "God's will" thing, way to cut out the part where he's dying FOR LOVE OF FRITZ. *frowny face*
F: *gets totally drunk, calls the Prussian uniform he wears a Sterbekittel (deathbed shroud), then declares he loves his father the tyrant anyway, really, DAD I LOVE YOU! *passes out*
Ugh, I hate that this basically happened irl. The version of the story that I've encountered is that FW forced him to drink, which seems in character, but I don't have it from a reliable source. Either way, poor Fritz. It pretty much tells you at this age he was going around repressing the urge to do just this when sober, which you could almost guess even without this episode.
Keith: *exists after all, but only in this second part*
Just Robert Keith, or are they conflating the two? Speaking of all the "Hans"ing going on, how *did* someone of Fritz's rank distinguish between Peter Keith and his brother Robert Keith in the 18th century?
Once again, thank you for your write-ups!
Re: Alternate universes where everyone is at least incrementally more happy
Speaking of all the "Hans"ing going on, how *did* someone of Fritz's rank distinguish between Peter Keith and his brother Robert Keith in the 18th century?
If they had additional titles - like Baron of X, Freiherr of Y -, there was the option of referring to them by said title. (A bit like "my Bayreuth sister", "my Braunschweig sister" etc.) So say one Keith is also the Freiherr of Eckingen and the other the Freiherr of Keferloh, they'd be Eckingen and Keferloh. (Both places are real but to my knowledge unconnected to the Keith clan, I just picked them at random.)
There was also the possibility of nicknames, like Fritz calling Keyserling "Caesarion". If you invent these, I'd go for names of either Greek mythology or French drama & novels.
The drunk scene in Der Thronfolger is visceral to watch, like watching a public breakdown. Which it was, of course.
(within the two parter, there's also the narrative irony that during the childhood section, at the end of the first dysfunctional Hohenzollern family meal, when FW is mid explosion and WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THESE CHLDREN, SD yells back "They're afraid of you!" and FW yells "But I don't want you" - he uses the German plural now, meaning he's adressing not SD or just F & W but them all - to fear me, I want you to love me!" His entire family: *stares*
(And of course the first time F does try a love declaration, in part II, his father thinks he's faking it and secretly mocking him, and the second time, during the drunk scene, he's just going "what even was that?" Watching, I was also reminded of the nightmare Fritz told Henri de Catt about mid 7 years war, of dreaming Wilhelmine was chiding him of not loving their father enough. The layers here - both to the accusation itself and Fritz' subconscious having Wilhelmine, who in rl sided with him, making it, thus siding with FW - are obvious.)
Re: Alternate universes where everyone is at least incrementally more happy
Nicknames and titles: agreed, I was more wondering about the specific case of teenage Peter and Robert, since Fritz has to talk a lot about them in escape attempt fanfics. I suppose in 1730, Peter's a lieutenant and Robert's not, which helps. But still. "Keith (Robert)" and "Lieutenant Keith (Peter)"? "Keith (Peter)" and "Keith's brother (Robert)"?
The drunk scene in Der Thronfolger is visceral to watch, like watching a public breakdown. Which it was, of course.
It's visceral even to read about, which is why 1) I didn't watch it, 2) if I ever do Yuletide and request fic, my letter as drafted contains a request not to depict this scene (referring to it, h/c the next morning, etc. is fine).
As far as I know, Fritz was consistent for the rest of his life about never getting drunk again.
Totally facetious note on Der Thronfolger: I watched the execution scene, because of course I did, and I've now seen three depictions of it on the screen, and of all of them, the only one where the director decides to go with the historically accurate aspect of Katte taking off his shirt is the one where the actor has Those Pecs \o/. Artistic decisions, lol.
FW yells "But I don't want you" - he uses the German plural now, meaning he's adressing not SD or just F & W but them all - to fear me, I want you to love me!"
Oh, lol, I think that might be based on this anecdote!
"Apart from being mean and short-tempered, Frederick William was for ever wielding his stick or crutch or dismissing a courtier or subject with a few well-aimed kicks. He had mixed views about the Jews, who settled in increasing numbers in Berlin in the course of his reign. He none the less believed that the state behaved justly towards them and felt that they should acknowledge his generosity in their turn. When one cowered in his presence, Frederick William set about him with his cane, shouting, 'You should love me!, not fear me. Love me!'"
Me when I first read that: *stares*
The layers here - both to the accusation itself and Fritz' subconscious having Wilhelmine, who in rl sided with him, making it, thus siding with FW - are obvious.)
God, yes. Every time Fritz's subconscious makes an appearance: the drinking episode, this dream about FW, the other dream about FW...it's just so painful.
Re: Alternate universes where everyone is at least incrementally more happy
Wow.
And yet... I feel like this is a common abusive dynamic :(
Re: Alternate universes where everyone is at least incrementally more happy
(seriously, every time I think the wild stories are done there is ANOTHER one)
Re: Alternate universes where everyone is at least incrementally more happy
Der Thronfolger
From everything you've said, this sounds generally speaking pretty true to history? I'm... not used to that from history-ish movies :P
Re: Der Thronfolger
(BTW, you can tell this is a West German movie made during the Cold War by the fact it can't use any original locations (including Potsdam, which was in GDR territory); whenever the action moves, we can a sketch of the relevant palace supposed to look like an ancient litography.)
Re: Der Thronfolger
(BTW, you can tell this is a West German movie made during the Cold War by the fact it can't use any original locations (including Potsdam, which was in GDR territory); whenever the action moves, we can a sketch of the relevant palace supposed to look like an ancient litography.)
Ohhhh interesting!
Re: Alternate universes where everyone is at least incrementally more happy
Idk, after watching it, maybe "Katte looks old enough to be Fritz's dad" happened to it? Is it just me being used to young characters being played by actors ten years older, or does Fritz look 15 in this? I looked up the actors, and Fritz is actually played by a 20-yo, and Katte by a 33-yo (that's still almost double their rl age difference), but wow Fritz looks young to me.
Also, as someone who's actually watched the movie and not as a silent-to-you 2x speed film, would you say the actors have the chemistry to sell one of the original lines for Katte's last words? They didn't seem to have many scenes together, but with good acting and screenwriting you can do a lot with a little, I guess.
Re: Alternate universes where everyone is at least incrementally more happy
Re: Jan Niklas being 13 years older - he played young Peter the Great (from 18 to his early 30s, then Maximilian Schell took over) six years after playing Katte in "Der Thronfolger", so presumably tv producers thought he was looking youthful enough when casting him and only later once the actors actually played together thought they just didn't look like within the same age group?
Der Thronfolger
LOL forever. He's not wrong?
Man, this is a work of love; thank you! <3
Re: Der Thronfolger
And you're welcome.:)
Re: Der Thronfolger
I'm all for keeping confidences, but, um, would DMs perchance satisfy your scruples?
Katte and Wilhelmine in rl
A bit of all of the above? I also considered he might have wanted to distract from him and Fritz, but then discarded that, because paying court to the unmarried oldest princess in FW's eyes would have been almost as dammable as being bff plus with the crown prince, and if Wilhelmine had been seen as compromised by this, he'd have ruined her marriage prospects, and thus any chance she had to get away from her father. I don't see Katte as calculating and cold enough to do that to throw up a smoke screen.
Whereas it makes far more sense for him to try and win her (platonic) favor, to convince her at least there's no need to compete for Fritz' time and attention. I mean, Katte was a bit older than the siblings, wasn't he? So he could have been emotionally wise enough to deduce where Wilhelmine's disapproval of him came from.
Re: Katte and Wilhelmine in rl
No kidding. And given the propensity of women to get pregnant, I think it would have been six of one, half a dozen of the other, in terms of which one FW would have considered worse. And given that historical FW accused W of sleeping with Katte *and* suspected him of sleeping with Fritz, I'm not sure adding more candidates to the list of illicit affairs would have occurred to Katte even if he had been cold and calculating. It's not either/or; once you're depraved enough to sleep with the Crown Prince, what's stopping you with the Princess?
And no, I don't see Katte as cold and calculating. Quite the opposite; I think he let his emotions get the better of his better judgment where Fritz was involved. :(
Katte was a bit older than the siblings, wasn't he? So he could have been emotionally wise enough
Yeah, 8 years older than Fritz and 5 years older than W. Older, more experienced in the world, and less traumatized. In my fic, I like to make him more emotionally wise (turns out being traumatized is also bad for your emotional awareness) and occasionally biting his tongue when Fritz, W, and Keith are being immature and thinking, "Remember how young they are!" And though he might not be able to articulate "Abuse is not great for acquiring emotional wisdom," he does get as far as, "S/he's going through a lot," especially with Fritz, and cuts them some slack. Which helps his relationship with a young and already-traumatized Fritz.