cahn | Frederick the Great post links

(psst, you're posting anonymously again below, so I'll respond to this one.)

Fandom: So I still wonder if we can't do something like 18thC European Royalty & Nobility, and explain in an evidence post that all of them are connected politically and personally. However, it would prooooobably still be closer to the spirit of the rules (and more likely to go through as a single fandom) to call it something like "Frederick the Great and Frenemies" :P And, as mildred says, then we could nominate Voltaire! Although Imentioned splitting up into two fandoms below, and I still think this is a possibility we should keep in mind in case there are mod problems, I think we should try to keep them together unless the mods make us separate. (I mean, Wilhelmine counts for both!)

Characters: I agree that Elisabeth Christine and Voltaire are unlikely to be much help for your particular scenario, but that scenario (amazing though it is) isn't all I want to request! :P :)

My requests (that I know about right now): I'm going to say in my letter that AND matching is partially optional. I'd like to request Maria Theresia, Elisabeth Christine, Wilhelmine, and Fritz (argh, only being able to request four!)

Things I would be happy receiving:
-your scenario with Maria Theresia and Fritz having a Sekrit Meeting, allllllll the popcorn, bonus points if Joseph finagles the meeting but not required
-Anything about Maria Theresia, honestly
-how did Elisabeth Christine navigate having Fritz as a husband, anyway
-Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine and Fritz in the same room: disaster or BIG disaster? Discuss.
-Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine liking each other so that Fritz decided not to talk to Wilhelmine any more: there's GOT to be a fic in this, right?? (I know the most rational explanation is that Fritz is... Fritz, but COME ON, this is what we have fic for) (I don't ship MT and W, mind you, I just... really like it that they got along!)

-even though I don't have slots to request Voltaire, bonus points if writer makes up scathing Voltaire quotes and/or quotes actual scathing Voltaire quotes

Hmm, the more I think about this the more I think you may be right that Elisabeth Christine doesn't quite fit with the rest of everyone. Let me think about this. Hmm, on second thought maybe I request Maria Theresia, Fritz, and Wilhelmine, and make it absolutely AND :D

:D

"Frederick the Great: Friends, Enemies, and Frenemies" :P

You have many awesome ideas. :D

I just want my gay ship, but I can't sign up, so this is sad. On the plus side, I was lying in bed just now trying to sleep (you can see how that worked out), came up with an idea for a fic, wanted two events in Fritz's life to take place in the same year but couldn't remember more than they were both from the 1740s, decided I was willing to fudge the chronology for fiction, got up, discovered not only that they're both from 1747 (woot!), but ALSO that I was going to link one event to Classical mythology, and it turns out Fritz ALREADY linked it to that exact Classical myth, because he's awesome like that and he and I are in the same fandom. So at least I can keep scribbling away at my own Fritz/Katte fics. <3

Meanwhile, I will enjoy and support whatever you two come up with even if it's not my tragic ship! Because all these characters are awesome.

I'm sorry, I always do this! I always go into a fandom and end up wanting gen fic that's not about the juggernaut pairing :P :)

BUT! don't fret about this! At least, don't fret yet. :) I believe that Friedrich II and Katte have been nominated for the past... two years?... by someone who wasn't me (obviously) or (I think)

selenak, and Fritz/Katte was definitely requested and written for last year by someone who wasn't either of us. So there are other people out there who are interested! I plan to make a canon pimping post on it when that yuletide post comes out (unless selenak wants to do it), and I'm betting we can flush more fans out of the woodwork to request your ship :D

Haha, no worries, seriously, you are not responsible for my ship any more than I'm responsible for your gen EC fic! ;) I wasn't registering disappointment about your choices, just about my inability to sign up. (And even if I did, there'd be no guarantee this request is the one I'd get a story for anyway. *Although*, I would probably nudge it in that direction by choosing even MORE obscure historical RPF fandoms for my other requests, mwahahaha.)

And yes, I had noticed that two of my favorite Fritz/Katte fics came out of last year's YT, so my nominated characters still have hope. :D They are a very trope-y pairing, as

selenak's TV show outline highlights!

Haha, true, and even if you signed up AND got a story for it, you wouldn't be able to micromanage-direct it ~~like Fritz would have done~~...

That TV show outline is TOTALLY going to go in my canon pimping post :D

Oh, I spent last night entertaining myself by drafting an optional details prompt/Santa letter thingy (that I will never use, sadly), and I'll have you know it was very wide open and non-micromanage-y. :PP

YES!

I have another comment outlined with more anecdotes for you, ranging from #LifeGoals to TOTALLY NUTS, but it seems tonight I'm instead working on the above, aka a *second* short, morbid, mostly canon-compliant fic about Fritz, Katte, ghosts, and the burial site at Sanssouci. Because one fic about that wasn't enough. Look, the reason I can't ever do YT (or any other fic exchange, or challenge, or prompt) is that I don't tell the muse what to do, the muse tells me what to do.

Anyway, stay tuned!

Okay, so you toooootally can be too busy for this, or not interested in ANOTHER fic about Fritz and Katte and death, but if you wanted to beta read some 3,000 words, I would welcome your input on behalf of my intended audience (familiar with canon but not obsessed, educated but without a deep background in Classics), to tell me if I need to explain the historical and especially Classical references more, or if they're clear enough in context. :-DD

LOL, I'm usually up for beta reading, at least if you don't need it in the immediate future -- although the sort of general comments you are looking for I can probably turn around by Wednesday or so. I'll PM you.

I just want to say that I have this huge grudge against biographer Carlyle for not only not shipping my ship--which, fair enough!--but for being an anti. And Carlyle specifically because of my own personal history with this fandom.

In high school, I read voraciously (god knows, none of this was covered in class) on Fritz, but was interested in the military history and magnificent bastardy aspects, not the interpersonal relations.

At the end of high school, I had moved into another fandom and discovered slash, but since I can only do one fandom at a time, it was too late to go back and start slashing Fritz.

For the next twenty or so years, I was never deeply in 18th century or Fritz fandom again, until three months ago. I only sporadically spent an hour here or there making up stories about Fritz in my head, without doing research, just based on what I remembered. (Realize that everything I've been regurgitating here is a combination of a couple of years of reading in high school, a 20-year lacuna, then 4-8 weeks of refreshing myself in summer 2019 and taking advantage of internet resources on Katte. And internet only because of the new physical disability that I will never stop complaining about.)

But, even in my days of not being in this fandom, I did want to ship Fritz/Katte. Badly. But being deeply immersed in other fandoms, I was unmotivated to go getting my hands on sources. And, due to repeated moves on a low budget, I had gotten rid of my history book collection, seeing as how I hadn't been in that fandom in a gazillion years. So all I had was an electronic copy of the public domain biography of Fritz by Carlyle, written in the 1860s.

And I have multiple memories, years apart, of trying to get material for my ship from Carlyle, and being defeated by his "anti" attitude toward my ship, which basically consists of repeating Wilhelmine, either in paraphrase or direct quotation at length. Behold.

"Poor young man, [Fritz] has got into a disastrous course; consorts chiefly with debauched young fellows, as Lieutenants Katte, Keith, and others of their stamp, who lead him on ways not pleasant to his Father, nor conformable to the Laws of this Universe."

"Of Lieutenant von Katte,— a short stout young fellow, with black eyebrows, pock-marked face, and rather dissolute manners,— we shall not fail to hear."

"A second favorite, and a much more dangerous, succeeded Keith. This was a young man of the name of Katte, Captain-Lieutenant in the regiment GENS-D'ARMES."

Then he repeats the entire passage from Wilhelmine, which you've read, including the "His physiognomy was rather disagreeable than otherwise. A pair of thick black eyebrows almost covered the eyes of him; his look had in it something ominous, presage of the fate he met with: a tawny skin, torn by small-pox, increased his ugliness. He affected the freethinker, and carried libertinism to excess; a great deal of ambition and headlong rashness accompanied this vice. A dangerous adviser here in the Berlin element, with lightnings going! Such a favorite was not the man to bring back my Brother from his follies."

"The maternal heart and Wilhelmina's are grieved to see Lieutenant Katte so much in his confidence— could wish him a wiser councillor in such predicaments and emergencies! Katte is greatly flattered by the Prince's confidence; even brags of it in society, with his foolish loose tongue. Poor youth, he is of dissolute ways; has plenty of it 'unwise intellect,' little of the 'wise' kind; and is still under the years of discretion."

[After the failed escape attempt] "The same post brought an order to the Colonel of the Gerns-d'Armes to put that Lieutenant Katte of his under close confinement:— we hope the thoughtless young fellow has already got out of the way? He is getting his saddle altered: fettling about this and that; does not consider what danger he is in."

He gets some pity for being young, foolish, and loyal, that's all.

Now, I am far from saying that we have to paint Katte and young Fritz as perfect in all ways. Among other things, they made some seriously bad choices around the escape plan! But my ship is my ship and it's for a reason.

So I always went "meh" after flipping through this chapter in Carlyle, was annoyed at what comes across as reflexes of victim-blaming and homophobic mindsets, and went back to kind of vaguely background shipping them without too much detail. Occasionally, I would be like, "And in some AU there was a successful escape attempt, yay, and they lived happily ever after. The end."

Only in my very recent re-perusal of the sources and examination of some new sources did I get enough material for the ship to set sail properly.

And while I should refrain from spending too much money I don't have on books I can't read, this week I did buy a couple used paperbacks for a few dollars each, one of which was Goldsmith's. I can at least use them as references as needed, even if I can't read them cover-to-cover.

And by flipping through the obligatory escape attempt chapter, I discovered that Goldsmith, despite writing in 1929 (!!!) ships my ship! I am willing to forgive her her various claims and omissions that were very common a hundred years ago but which don't stand up to more recent thorough examinations of the documentary evidence, because she ships my ship!

Check this out.

"Rumors of his attachment [to Keith] finally reached the King. Such affairs were by no means uncommon in the century of Louis XV, but they were decidedly out of place at the Court of Frederick William." [!! Her whole attitude is "Fritz was gay and I'm cool with that, deal with it."]

"Frederick's attachment to Keith had been a mere episode, but his friendship with Katte was not a schoolboy's passing fancy; it was deep love and friendship." [!!! <333]

"Katte was the son of a general in Frederick William's army. His ancestors had been Prussian officers for generations, but the military life had never appealed to him. Even Wilhelmine, who disliked him because she was afraid of the disaster which this friendship might mean for her brother, had to admit that Katte was 'well read, intelligent, and that he had savoir faire.' He had studied law in Berlin and had traveled all over Europe, but in the end he had been forced into the army; for one of his class in Prussia there was no future in any but a military career. He would have preferred the life of a scholar, but he was not strong enough to oppose so radically the traditions of his family. Katte was widely read and very well informed for a man of his age and class. He was witty and entertaining. He stimulated Frederick's imagination. He was not good-looking--his heavy eyebrows met over the bridge of a large nose, and he was badly pockmarked--but his great charm of manner apparently caused people to forget his unattractive face.

"Katte, in turn, was devoted to Frederick. Although the young officer had abandoned all hope of any other life, he still rebelled inwardly against the army. It gave him tremendous satisfaction to encourage Frederick's revolt against his father's regime. This hopeless rebellion against the Prussian military system was the chief bond between the two. They had a hate in common: Frederick's father and all he stood for." [Not my interpretation at all, granted, but perfectly possible and an interesting take.]

"Katte helped Frederick to continue his non-military interests in many ways. He smuggled forbidden books into the Prince's apartments, and secretly arranged flute lessons at regular intervals. During these lessons the faithful Katte always kept watch outside Frederick's door, and warned him if he heard the unexpected approach of Frederick William.

"Frederick's allowance was so small that he could afford neither books nor lessons in flute-playing. Katte seemed to know everyone in Berlin, and he easily arranged loans with a number of wealthy merchants." [Insert secret library description.]

[After the failed escape attempt] "The king wanted to catch Katte unwarned. Undoubtedly, however, when Wilhelmine told him of this letter from her father, Katte knew that he would, inevitably, be involved; that he would share Frederick's final punishment if he stayed in Berlin. His furlough had begun. He was free to leave Berlin at any time, but he did not go. Katte was neither a coward nor a weakling, and he loved Frederick. He could not make up his mind to let his friend face Frederick William's wrath alone. Finally, one morning the King's courier arrived in Berlin, and it was rumored that Katte was about to be arrested. He was a popular young man, and by noon some of his his friends had informed him of his coming arrest. Even his colonel sympathized with Katte, and wanted to give the young officer a chance to get away. The arrest was postponed, therefore, until late in the evening. The colonel fully expected that Katte would have left by then, but he was awaiting the officers in his rooms when they arrived.

"During the day Katte had been busy. He had sent the Queen a sealed case with all his letters from Frederick, as well as copies of Frederick's secret messages to England. These documents compromised the Queen as well as Frederick, and it would have been disastrous for her if Frederick William had found them."

"Katte, alone in his cell, not far from Frederick's, hoped for many weeks that his life would be spared. All the time he thought more of Frederick than he did of himself."

[Insert his final letter to his grandfather.] "No, Katte was no coward and no weakling. On the day of his execution he said to Major Schenk, who, much against his will, was ordered by Frederick William to take charge of the execution, 'I die for a Prince whom I love, and I comfort myself with the thought that my death will be the greatest possible proof of my devotion to him.' Wilhelmine, usually so ready with sarcasm, has nothing to say about Katte's last talk with Schenk. She simply records what he told her, word for word. Clearly there was nothing for her to add."

"When he recognized Katte, [Fritz] went almost mad, and knocked his head frantically against the iron bars which separated him from his friend.

"'Forgive me, my dear Katte,' was all he could say again and again.

"The gallant Katte, rising to this last occasion, looked up at Frederick, smiled, and said:

"'Death for such a charming Prince is indeed sweet.'"

Then Goldsmith writes about Fritz's roaring twenties: "[Random woman who Fritz het-posed about]: She has caused his biographers much racking of brains. Some, who are very respectable, wanting to forget or ignore his gay life in Dresden or his friendships with Keith and Katte, speak of Frau von Wreech as his 'first love', but most of them agree that his love for the lady, who must indeed have been very charming, was purely platonic. But I have grown suspicious, skeptical, about Frederick's relations with women...I have wondered whether...gossip about a liaison with a woman of her type would have been welcomed by his father...I do not think Frederick would have announced his passion for the lady had he really cared. Increasingly, as he grew older he locked his real secrets away within himself. There is no reference to Katte in his letters." Earlier on, Goldsmith has said, about Doris Ritter, "[Fritz] thought that he was in love with her, but he was mistaken. His predilection was not for her sex."

1929! Meanwhile, biographers much later in the 20th century are still going, "There was nothing unnatural about Frederick's sex drive, it was just underdeveloped," or "There's no evidence for homosexuality except one estranged and notoriously unreliable Frenchman." Only 8 years ago (!!!), Blanning's bio was notable for going, "Look, people, he was GAY. AND CAMP. Look at the evidence. Sheesh."

Man, if I had had her book instead of Carlyle's, how the history of this ship in my life might have been different. And yes, I transcribed all the Goldsmith excerpts myself, from a physical book, and my upper back is now paying the price. WORTH IT.

Also, shipping aside, I think these two sets of excerpts show just how much room for interpretation of the sources there is, and the one is not necessarily more reliable than the other (I honestly think Goldsmith, while good for <333, goes too far for nonfiction in her interpretations and puts more weight on the evidence than it will bear. Basically, like everyone else, she's presenting her headcanon as canon.). This is why I said, in a comment to one of your other posts, that I've started to read history books like novels. Thank you for your novel, Goldsmith. Ima go write some fic and not call it a bio.

If it's any comfort, Carlyle's reputation - well, not the general one, but the one of his Fritz biography as THE biography - has been going downhill througout the last century, even before most people detoxed on the Great Man of History dogma. But speaking of Wilhelmine's issues with her brothers' boyfriends (i.e. Katte and to a letter degree Keith), my own theory is that it's mostly a case of close siblings jealeaousy issues. Meaning: she and Fritz had arguably been each other's most important emotional relationship (and the only non-abusive one within their family), then post puberty they were cast into mostly separate social spheres, and he started to form intense emotional ties to other people. Which she couldn't consciously blame him for, of course it's good to have friends, but still, it makes for a sense of getting emotionally left behind or at best having to share, and so her subconscious decided that first Keith, then Katte were suspicious characters, so she'd have some reason she could articulate to herself for her resentment.

(Carlysle, of course, has no such excuse.)

I'm currently re-listening to the audio version of the Fritz/Wilhelmine correspondance which I own, and it reminded me that it really does back up Wilhelmine's descriptions not just of her father's but her mother's behaviour years later in the memoirs. In 1733 when the question is whether she should come back to Potsdam for a visit, she writes to Fritz "the Queen hates me, I have been called 'the vomit of humanity'" and that she's not up for an encore of that in combination of their father's behavior if Fritz is simultanously kept away (as he was during the last time she was in Berlin).

It also struck me that the two of them don't appear to have been close to any of their other siblings at any point. I mean, in one letter Fritz reports, re: their father, "Sophie is now the favourite, but only in contrast of her married siblings, and it will only last till her own marriage, while Charlotte is in disgrace", but otherwise they hardly mention their sisters and brothers at all, and never seem to have considered trusting them with their respective secrets, asking for their opinions etc. It's basically a "you and me against the world" thing formed early on.

If it's any comfort, Carlyle's reputation - well, not the general one, but the one of his Fritz biography as THE biography - has been going downhill througout the last century, even before most people detoxed on the Great Man of History dogma.

So I've gathered, but at one time, it was all I had, and my Katte-shipping heart now regrets that, grrrr. And I love your "detox" word choice!

it makes for a sense of getting emotionally left behind or at best having to share, and so her subconscious decided that first Keith, then Katte were suspicious characters

I agree that was a major reason. I think a secondary reason is that as Fritz got older, he started making more life choices that she couldn't agree with, and it was a lot easier to blame the people he was hanging out with than to blame him for his own bad judgment, or accept that they were starting to have different values and priorities. How often does "He/she's not a bad kid, he/she just hangs out with bad kids?" get invoked for teenagers throughout the world?

It also struck me that the two of them don't appear to have been close to any of their other siblings at any point.

I agree, I've always been struck by this. And...

It's basically a "you and me against the world" thing formed early on.

This, yes, exactly!

Those poor, poor kids.

I mean, I mostly thought Carlyle's problem (having only read these bits out of context) was that he depended rather too slavishly on Wilhelmine as a source without thinking that she might have had her own (psychological) agendas.

I agree that was a major reason. I think a secondary reason is that as Fritz got older, he started making more life choices that she couldn't agree with, and it was a lot easier to blame the people he was hanging out with than to blame him for his own bad judgment, or accept that they were starting to have different values and priorities.

I agree with both of these -- I definitely got both of those vibes from Wilhelmine. (Though to be honest if I hadn't had context provided by you guys, I'd probably have been just like Carlyle and taken her at her word.)

I mean, I mostly thought Carlyle's problem (having only read these bits out of context) was that he depended rather too slavishly on Wilhelmine as a source without thinking that she might have had her own (psychological) agendas.

You can see him slavishly depending on her! He might as well have "Wilhelmine Is My Source" blazoned on every page. I'm also not sure, even from his Wikipedia page (maybe

selenak knows more, she often does), how comfortable he was with Fritz's sexuality, which tends to seriously color how people present his favorites.

[ETA: I should also note that Carlyle may have shared Wilhelmine's intense subconscious desire to distribute as much blame as possible to Fritz's companions instead of Fritz, because Carlyle's whole philosophy toward life, as exemplified by but not limited to his bio of Fritz, was "Great Men Rule (Both Figuratively and Literally)." Fritz was a great man and ruler; therefore we need to explain away the things we don't like as much as possible. So I suspect Wilhelmine's take on things really resonated with Carlyle.]

I'd probably have been just like Carlyle and taken her at her word

It's easy to do! I myself, every time I went to Carlyle looking for shipping material, came away with, "Well, maybe I'm over-romanticizing the whole thing and young Fritz actually really had bad judgment about boyfriends at that age. There's no reason he couldn't have, after all. I still *wish* I could have a proper ship for them, though!" It was only after examining multiple sources recently, some of which called attention to the biases of others, that I managed to arrive at my own opinions (and awareness of where the boundaries of my knowledge lie).

Edited 2019-10-07 05:43 (UTC)

Now it's been decades since I read Carlyle's biography (my grandfather had a - shortened - German edition in his library), but here's the irony: he had no problem being wary of Wilhelmine as a source when it came to her actual criticism of her brother, pointing out that the memoirs were written during their three years enstragement and thus likely coloured by her emotional state at that time. Otoh, I would caution against assuming homophobia, not least because Carlyle, cranky Scot that he was, didn't held back on the -isms he actually had, which were plenty, so if he'd any hangups in that direction he'd have ranted about them, not being coy. Plus the mid-Victorians, of which he was one, were actually wild about "passionate friendships" between men. (Think Tennyson's poem In Memoriam - and Tennyson was a friend.) Considering Carlyle's first biographer (also a friend) thought he (Carlyle) was impotent, his Albee-esque marriage to Jane Welch not withstanding, it's more likely that if C thought about Fritz' sexuality at all, he considered him a fellow asexual (not in those terms; I'm always trying to avoid putting current-day framings of sexuality into historical figures' heads), basically seeing his hero Above It All.

Back to Wilhelmine for a moment, I've just listened to one of those exchanges which make me salute her, when she and Fritz are discussing new books - these two were such endearing geeks in that regard, constantly talking about music and books in between news and family drama:

W: Have just come across a book that really made me furios. The author says women are not capable of rational thought, only men are. So we've been put on a level with sheep.

F: Gotta agree with the author. You, dearest sis, are of course an exception and Not Like Other Girls, but then I don't consider you a woman. You are one of the first men of Europe.

W: Thanks but no thanks. I'm a woman. I don't want to be thought as an exception. (literal quote is "I don't want to be held apart from my sisters"). Maybe rethink your criteria?

F: *changes subject*

Then there's this gem:

W: OMG have just heard you wrote to Voltaire and HE WROTE YOU BACK! A-plus fanboy achievement, bro. I'm so envious. But, um. Gossip says you've also invited him. Are you sure that's wise? He's supposed to a bit on the vain side in person, not quite living up to his writings.

F: Pffff. I'm also interest in him for his writings, don't care about his personal quirks at all, what could possibly go wrong?

And, around 1737:

W: Have just heard rumors that Mom and Dad have done a 180%. She's supposed to have gone religious while he's supposed to have discovered music. What the hell?

F: Don't worry, it's not true. Mom's no more religious than before and Dad has discovered painting, not music. That can still be our thing.

BTW, they always refer to their parents as "the King" and "The Queen", never as their mother and father. But to be fair, that might be writing custom of the day as much as reflecting their emotions, considering Wilhelmine refers to her husband first as "the Prince" and then, after his father's death, as "The Margrave", never by his first name or as "my husband". Fritz the very few times he mentions her refers to Elisabeth Christine as "the Crown Princess", but that's less surprising. Oh and, one of these times is a downright sympathetic reference, when telling Wilhelmine "Potsdam and Berlin are hell right now, the King is having a go at me again, and even the Crown Princess has lost nearly all her standing with him and gets similar treatment".

Re: Tragic ship

mildred_of_midgard - 2019-10-07 15:17 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Tragic ship

cahn - 2019-10-07 16:48 (UTC) - Expand

Relatedly, of course it makes sense to check the background of biographers for how it may influence their attitude re: Fritz, boyfriends and politics, FW and parent issues. Here's me providing you with one for Theodor Fontane.

Attitude towards parents and parental authority in general:

Complicated. His father and mother married young and regretted it for the ensuing decades. Dad was Henri Louis Fontane, lover of anecdotes, fun and games, inveterate gambler and thus cause of bankruptcy and worries; the fun parent. Mum was Emilie Labry (yup, both of Fontane's parents have French names; Fritz' great grandfather had invited all those Huguenots Louis XIV had kicked out into Prussia, which benefited the principality a great deal and meant there was an important minority of French speakers around), often mortally embarrassed by her husband making a fool of himself socially even before he gambled away the family money (again) and fond of physical punishment; the discipline parent. As a boy, Theo resented her for it. Later, he came to respect her and see her difficult situation, but he still thought beating your kid was a lousy form of education and didn't do it with his own.

Attitude towards Prussia: Complicated. "the beloved and hated Prussia", is how he phrases it at one point. Young Theo, influenced both by Dad's enthusiasm for Napoleon and his own political ideas, took part in the 1848 revolution and even wrote an essay titled "Why Prussia must perish", by which he meant that the Prussian state was so codified as a military and authoritarian state by now that in order to achieve a unified Germany with the other German states, it would have to be either so thoroughly reformed that it wouldn't be Prussia anymore or get dissolved into a larger Germany. Then the 1848 revolution was defeated. Theo's mother: Told you so. Now you're out of job. And you've got a new wife and your first kid. If you don't want to end up like your father, you better take the job at this arch-conservative ultra Prussian journal I've asked my local preacher to get you! Theo: swallows, takes job. Writes, among other things, the basics for what would become "Wanderungen durch die Mark Brandenburg", aka the book the Katte tragedy excerpt is from, for this very conservative journal. Later, once he had achieved some name recognition, switches to another, moderate journal. (Fontane didn't make it big time as a novelist until he was well into his 60s.) Once he finally achieved fame and very late fortune in his 70s, he amazed and delighted the younger writers by supporting the aventgarde theatre of his day instead of putting down new stuff, and politically arguing for reform again.

Like his father, he loved anecdotal historical ramblings (he'd be a great contributer to this journal, too), and he'd always enjoyed stories about Prussian nobles and kings, it wasn't that he suddenly discovered them post revolution. But his favourites among the Hohenzollern were not so coincidentally the ones who never got on the throne (i.e. Fritz' brother Heinrich, but also nephew Louis Ferdinand).

In terms of contemporary (i.e. contemporary to his lifetime) Prussian society, Fontane still is regarded as THE realist novelist, depicting said society from the inside with a mixture of affection and acid observation of its flaws.

Attitude towards sex in general and m/m in particular: as a person, had two (early dead) pre-marital illegitimate kids. His wife Emilie (another one, bearing the same first name as his mother just to confuse casual biographers) has been an illegitimate daughter herself (with a horror childhood; she got adopted, then her adopted mother died, and her adopted father took up with a prostitute who tied little Emilie to a post in the courtyard while servicing soldiers in her rooms). As a writer, Fontane was famous for his three dimensional female characters, several of whom have non-marital sex. So much for the het side of things. Re: m/m, he had a bff called Wilhelm Wolfssohn who wrote him a love poem when they were young and passionate letters with "I am your Carlos, you are my Posa" etc. (that definitely was a 19th century passionate friendship), but fictionally speaking, there's not much reflection of that. There's no intense male friendship in a Fontane novel that I can think of (there are of course male friendships, but as a writer Fontane genuinely seems to have been more interested in exploring female characters and the way they relate to men and each other).

Is he likely to have projected a contemporary political figure into Fritz? Not into Fritz the crown prince, but Old Fritz the remote shadow in Schach von Wuthenow, possibly, to wit: Bismarck. Fontane went to and thro between "magnificent bastard" and "reactionary bastard" on Bismarck through most of his life, ever since they were on opposite sides in the 1848 revolution in their youth.

Re: Meanwhile, Fontane

cahn - 2019-10-07 17:10 (UTC) - Expand

Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine liking each other so that Fritz decided not to talk to Wilhelmine any more: there's GOT to be a fic in this, right?? (I know the most rational explanation is that Fritz is... Fritz, but COME ON, this is what we have fic for) (I don't ship MT and W, mind you, I just... really like it that they got along!)

I don't blame you. Also, it's been years since I've been to the Eremitage in Bayreuth (Wilhelmine's Sanssouci) so I couldn't swear to it, but I think she even painted a miniature Portrait of Maria Theresia (or more likely MT gave her one but in any case Wilhelmine kept it among her personal possessions, not with the state stuff), which makes her "look, she's my husband's liege lady, she was just passing through!" protestations to Fritz a bit less than convincing. But then he was basically: YOU TRAITOR! so much that I figure she had to downplay it for any kind of reconciliation being possible at all. (In what few angry letters he wrote during their breakup and pre reconciliation, he kept referring to MT as yOUR FRIEND the queen of Hungary".) Anyway, yes, there's a fic in this!

(Wilhelmine and Fritz had a quarrel shortly pre her meeting with MT, too, but that one was mostly a misunderstanding. Wilhelmine's Lady in waiting, one Countess of Marwitz, was also her husband's mistress, to Wilhelmine's great distress. So she arranged a marriage for her rival. The groom was an Austrian noble (i.e. away with the Countess of Marwitz to Vienna!), which infuriated Fritz because Marwitz was a Prussian noble and thus not allowed to marry an Austrian noble without his permission. Being paranoid, he thought by arranging the marriage his sister entered a conspiracy against him. (She hadn't told him Marwitz was her husband's mistress because when does this family ever share vital Information when it's most needed? Also it hurt her pride - she was insisting her marriage was a success to him.) Post-reconciliationn, she explained what had been up with the Marwitz, and in any case by then MT had become the greater issue.

(In what few angry letters he wrote during their breakup and pre reconciliation, he kept referring to MT as YOUR FRIEND the queen of Hungary".)

lol forever OH FRITZ

I think a lot of my ~FEELINGS~ here are from reading Wilhelmine's memoirs (I'm still a third through the second part, it's a bit of a rough slog here because she's now going through hard times with her family-in-law and possibly other people, none of whom I can really keep straight) and her life is just horrible in general and I just want her to have a friend!!

(She hadn't told him Marwitz was her husband's mistress because when does this family ever share vital Information when it's most needed? Also it hurt her pride - she was insisting her marriage was a success to him.)

Oh Hohenzollerns :(
Does all this happen in her memoirs? You mentioned MT shows up as the Queen of Hungary but obviously I haven't gotten there yet.

Wilhelmine's memoirs break off just when she has to describe realizing Marwitz - who wasn't just a Lady in waiting but a dear friend up to that point - was also her husband's mistress. At least in the of the memoirs I have, her last sentence is "I don't want to write about that court anymore". I might misremember, or have one of the shortened editions, but as far as I know, she never finished her memoirs propery. You have to consider her state of mind when she wrote them: marriage crisis, friend lost, Fritz estranged. I wouldn't be surprised if that was why she tackled her chiildhood and youth to begin with - not just because she had time at her hands, but to remind herself she'd survived worse. And afterwards, when Marwitz had at last left for Vienna, she'd made up with her husband, and she was reconciled with Fritz again, she probably didn't want to dive straight back into the arguments and the misery.

Unfortunately, that means the Maria Theresiia encounter didn't make it into the tell all (again, as far as I recall). She just mentions her when listing the royals who married at the same time she and Fritz had to.
end on a slightly less depressing note, I'm currently reading about "Friedrich II als Musiker", and Wilhelmine plays a big role in that one, not just because music was a mutual passion for them but because he kept sending her his compositions ~~for beta-reading~~ for her musical judgment. Am v. amused but not surprised in one letter Fritz explains how he taught the castrato singer he'd just hiired, Porporino, how to sing properly. (Think Hamlet lecturing the players on how to act.) (And bear in mind that castrati were trained from early childhood onwards and that it was an incredibly tough musical education..)

(I also got a more detailed summary of Wilhelmine's opera "Argenore" than I iused to know. Ahem: Argenore, King of Ponto, has a daughter named Palmida, secretly in love with Ormondo, a noble soldier and war leader; however, Argenore has promised her to Leonidas, his other battle-leader, who in turn has a secret love affair with Palmida's friend Martesia. Our villain Alcasto has designs on Palmida himself and frames Ormondo for trying to run away with her. Ormondo gets arrested. Argenore demands that Palmida kills Ormondo herself, otherwise both of them would have to die.

Ormondo manages to escape. Argenore, who plans to present his daughter with her lover's dead body (since she refused to earlier demand) in order to make her marry Leonidas, orders Leonidas to recapture Ormondo. Leonidas does so and in the ensuiing duel mortally wounds Ormondo, who dies. In anger and despiar, Palmida kills Leonidas. Martesia then, too late, via a letter in her possession reveals that Ormondo was really King Argenore's long lost son, i.e. Palmida's brother. Palmida, learning this, drowns herself. Argenore realises he's destroyed both his children, sings about that and commits suicide on the stage. Fina della tragedia.

...I don't know about you, but I think someone was venting... (More seriously, Wilhelmine in some ways may have been more together than Fritz, but I think it's more a question of her being restrained by being a woman and not having the same power at her disposal to deal with her trauma. She was stuck writing opera and memoirs to even try to attempt to.

...I wanted to end less depressingly, didn't I? Okay, I did manage to find the pastel miniature Wilhelmine - who was never more than amateur but as a princess of her age had to learn to paint as well - did of Maria Theresia (the Erremitage online inventory says she did it with her own hands. Given she met her just that one time, it was probably done by memory unless that meeting took longer (will have to track down Thiel's biography who supposedly gives the most detail on this):

http://www.wilhelmine-von-bayreuth.info/index.php/streben-in-der-politik/maria_theresia_pastell/
To

Am v. amused but not surprised in one letter Fritz explains how he taught the castrato singer he'd just hiired, Porporino, how to sing properly. (Think Hamlet lecturing the players on how to act.) (And bear in mind that castrati were trained from early childhood onwards and that it was an incredibly tough musical education..)

Oh, god, this is so hilariously in character. Fritz *always* knew better than the experts in their field of expertise, that was his thing. Voltaire and Quantz must have been surprised to be exceptions. :P

That book is golden with stories about Fritz micromanaging his musicians, including, btw, also female sopranos, not just the castrati. The female lead soprano at the Berlin opera he was particularly involved (and surprisingly complimentary about in general) with; in addition to being a good singer, she also had an abusive dad, so there might have been additional sympathy on that count. All singers, including the great Salimbene (who was one of the legendary castrati on a European level), however, had to endure getting lectured by Fritz.

As for Quantz: when he was about to visit Bayreuth Fritz wrote to Wilihelmine not to give him more than what Fritz gave him per appearance for otherwise he might demand a salary raise upon his return to Berlin, so Fritz' introduction scene in Mein Name ist Bach where he refuses to pay for an uncommissioned composition by Emmanuel Bach was dead on the money at least, no pun intended. :) But yes, fictional Quantz saying "he could be your father" re: J.S. Bach was a line just there get the audience to see Fritz' reaction and introduce Fritz' Dad issues early on in the movie, i.e. exposition duty over historical likelihood for Quantz of all the people to have said it. Otoh, who else would say it? The rest of the people in the scene are all younger than Fritz and utterly dependent on him. You have to consider that the film makers couldn't assume their audience would know all about Fritz' background already going in. This is a Swiss-German movie produced for an international audience who may know who Bach was but might or might not be aware Frederick the Great was his contemporary at best, so they had to include exposition somehow.

Back to the book about Fritz as a musician I've just read: also includes analyses of his operas - Coriolano (same myth Shakespeare's play is based on, worthy of note that you get one of the most famous disapproving mother, not father figures here, and the son eventually decides to listen to his mother knowing full well he'll die for it), Silla (good old Lucius Cornelius Sulla, here a misunderstood good dictator sorting everyone's miseries out despite being maligned as an evil tyrant by some of the cast, and and the end retiring as the Republic can now fend for itself) and Montezuma (Fritz strikes a blow for the Aztecs and against bigotted Catholic Spain, ruled, of course, by the Habsburgs at the time the opera is set; the book's author points out that Montezuma, being a good guy, isn't presented as an ideal ruler, either, and that his goodness and passivity allows the evil ~~Habsburgs~~ Spaniards to genocide his country).

The author argues against what some biographers apparantly have claimed - i.e. that Fritz lost interest in opera post 7-years-war - and backs it up with quotes from documents to prove it. Down to him visiting the opera with his last state guest ever in the year of his death. Who was that last guest? Why, none other than great-nephew Carl August from Weimar. She also provides details about the singers, the concerts, the arrangements (down to such details that when Fritz was visiting Bayreuth post-reconciliation with Wilhelmine, she re-arranged the musical presentation of one of her works in his honor in such a way that the style the songs were presented would echo his favourite castrato singer (Salimbene) and composer (Hasse).

Edited 2019-09-23 09:45 (UTC)

so Fritz' introduction scene in Mein Name ist Bach where he refuses to pay for an uncommissioned composition by Emmanuel Bach was dead on the money at least

Yes, I was impressed at how the intro scene managed to pack so many of Fritz's traits into so few sentences.

But yes, fictional Quantz saying "he could be your father" re: J.S. Bach was a line just there get the audience to see Fritz' reaction and introduce Fritz' Dad issues early on in the movie, i.e. exposition duty over historical likelihood for Quantz of all the people to have said it.

Oh, I get *why* they did it! I made the same choice to put my exposition in Algarotti's mouth in my latest fic (which cahn is kindly currently beta-reading) because he is the most likely character *within the context of the fic* to have said it, though not in real life. (Then I added an author's note at the end apologizing to Algarotti. ;-) ) I was just saying that personally, knowing the closet story, I raised an eyebrow at Quantz.

Thank you for the details from the books you're reading! Between my inability to read German and my current inability to read physical books, they're very helpful. And sadly, as much as German would be extremely useful to me this month, it's something like 4 or 5 on my list of languages to beef up on, so it's going to be a while. (I wish my PhD program, which theoretically required a reading knowledge of academic German, had either provided the resources to learn to read academic German without having to go through the whole rigmarole of years of learning to speak to Germans about your daily life and ask when the train is coming, or at the very least, held the bar higher: I aced the reading requirements without actually having enough vocabulary to read anything I want to read. I complained about the program expectations at the time.)

:( Okay, yeah, that's depressing. I can totally understand why she didn't want to talk about it (even if she really liked MT). And venting through opera :( That's a really cute miniature, though!

Fritz explains how he taught the castrato singer he'd just hiired, Porporino, how to sing properly. (Think Hamlet lecturing the players on how to act.) (And bear in mind that castrati were trained from early childhood onwards and that it was an incredibly tough musical education..)

Lol forever, Fritz! (I have taken and failed at enough singing lessons -- as someone who used to be a quite reasonably good violinist, I want to add -- that even before the explanatory note I was kind of laughing at the idea of a flute player teaching a singer how to sing. Yeeeeeah.)

So hilariously, this reminds me of the time I and another Indo-Europeanist student showed up at a summer school in Europe, took a two-week course on comparative Semitic linguistics with both of us having NO background in Semitic, and by the end of week one I was raising my hand to vociferously disagree with the professor (who would never admit that he was wrong and I was right) about how Semitic historical linguistics worked. The other student was less confrontational, but would take me aside to tell me quietly that I was right and making good arguments and to encourage me to keep fighting the good fight. I was amused at our brazenness at the time, and I continue to be.

Later, back at my home university, I took a full semester course on a Semitic language, asked that professor what he thought, and he agreed with the professor at the other university. I continued to be outraged (ETA: "outraged" is a bit strong for historical linguistics. Indignant, maybe) and disagree.

In our defense, several years later, I found out that the foremost historical Semitic linguistics scholar agreed with me. Said foremost scholar also believes the field of historical Semitic linguistics is not as advanced as historical Indo-European linguistics and contains scholars still making elementary methodological mistakes about things that we IE-ists figured out in the 19th century. So there.

But I still think our total confidence about something we first- and second-year grad students had been studying for a week was hilarious, and I relate so hard to Fritz's arrogance, even when it's unwarranted. The thing about being arrogant is that sometimes you're wrong and you get egg on your face (or your entire army gets pummeled or even destroyed at Hochkirch or Kunersdorf) because you refuse to believe it, and sometimes you really are right and the so-called experts really are wrong! Suspect a flautist teaching a castrato is the first case, but there were times when Fritz really was right, and I am not rewriting my essay to be more like George Washington, dammit! :P (LOL)

Edited 2019-09-29 17:22 (UTC)

Frederick the Great post links

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