Entry tags:
Frederick the Great post links
More Frederick the Great (henceforth "Fritz") and surrounding spinoffs history! Clearly my purpose in life is now revealed: it is to encourage ![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
mildred_of_midgard and selenak to talk to me about Frederick the Great and associated/tangential European history. I am having such a great time here! Collating some links in this post:
* selenak's post on Frederick the Great as a TV show with associated fandom; a great place to start for the general history
* I have given up indexing all posts, here is the tag of discussion posts. Someday when I actually have time maybe I'll do a "best of."
Some links that have come up in the course of this discussion (and which I am putting here partially for my own benefit because in particular I haven't had time to watch the moviesbecause still mainlining Nirvana in Fire):
Fritz' sister Wilhelmine's tell-all tabloidy memoirs (English translation); this is Part I; the text options have been imperfectly OCR'd so be aware of that (NOTE 11-6-19: THIS IS A BOWDLERIZED TEXT, I WILL COME BACK WITH A BETTER LINK)
Part II of Wilhelmine's memoirs (English translation)
A dramatization of Frederick the Great's story, English subtitles
Mein Name ist Bach, Movie of Frederick the Great and J.S. Bach, with subtitles Some discussion of the subtitles in the thread here (also scroll down)
2017 miniseries about Maria Theresia, with subtitles and better translation of one scene in comments
ETA:
Miniseries of Peter the Great, IN ENGLISH, apparently reasonably historically solid
ETA 10-22-19
Website with letters from and to Wilhelmine during her 1754/1755 journey through France and Italy, as well as a few letters about Wilhelmine, in the original French, in a German translation, and in facsimile
University of Trier site where the full works of Friedrich in the original French and German have been transcribed, digitized, and uploaded:
30 volumes of writings and personal correspondence
46 volumes of political correspondence
Fritz and Wilhelmine's correspondence (vol 27_1)
ETA 10-28-19
Der Thronfolger (German, no subtitles; explanation of action in the comment here)
ETA 11-6-19
Memoirs of Stanisław August Poniatowski, dual Polish and French translation
ETA 1-14-20
Our Royal Librarian Mildred has collated some documentation, including google translate versions of the Trier letters above (see the "Correspondence" folder)!
mildred_of_midgard and selenak to talk to me about Frederick the Great and associated/tangential European history. I am having such a great time here! Collating some links in this post:* selenak's post on Frederick the Great as a TV show with associated fandom; a great place to start for the general history
* I have given up indexing all posts, here is the tag of discussion posts. Someday when I actually have time maybe I'll do a "best of."
Some links that have come up in the course of this discussion (and which I am putting here partially for my own benefit because in particular I haven't had time to watch the movies
Fritz' sister Wilhelmine's tell-all tabloidy memoirs (English translation); this is Part I; the text options have been imperfectly OCR'd so be aware of that (NOTE 11-6-19: THIS IS A BOWDLERIZED TEXT, I WILL COME BACK WITH A BETTER LINK)
Part II of Wilhelmine's memoirs (English translation)
A dramatization of Frederick the Great's story, English subtitles
Mein Name ist Bach, Movie of Frederick the Great and J.S. Bach, with subtitles Some discussion of the subtitles in the thread here (also scroll down)
2017 miniseries about Maria Theresia, with subtitles and better translation of one scene in comments
ETA:
Miniseries of Peter the Great, IN ENGLISH, apparently reasonably historically solid
ETA 10-22-19
Website with letters from and to Wilhelmine during her 1754/1755 journey through France and Italy, as well as a few letters about Wilhelmine, in the original French, in a German translation, and in facsimile
University of Trier site where the full works of Friedrich in the original French and German have been transcribed, digitized, and uploaded:
30 volumes of writings and personal correspondence
46 volumes of political correspondence
Fritz and Wilhelmine's correspondence (vol 27_1)
ETA 10-28-19
Der Thronfolger (German, no subtitles; explanation of action in the comment here)
ETA 11-6-19
Memoirs of Stanisław August Poniatowski, dual Polish and French translation
ETA 1-14-20
Our Royal Librarian Mildred has collated some documentation, including google translate versions of the Trier letters above (see the "Correspondence" folder)!
The Lecture, summarized
(This made me think of something which has nothing to do with the lecture, will address it in a different post.)
Then he presents Fontane, Müller and Roes, adressing not just the different ways they dealt with the topic in terms of event and characterisation but also style, observing, for example, that Fontane - who, I'll remind you, included the whole thing in a travel guide book! - by the way he quotes various "witnesses" - Katte's father, the preacher who was present when Katte died, the courtier/adventure Pölnitz, and Wilhelmine - creates the illusion of a literary salon discussing Katte and Fritz, which is very him, given Fontane, as a novelist, excells at a style he himself referred to as "Plauderei" - casual chatting/discussion - and often characterises people via their dialogue.
Müller's play from the 1970s is one about Prussia which uses FW humiliating the preacher Gundling, the Katte tragedy and the writer Gotthold Ephraim Lessing as three different aspects of Prussia becoming a tragedy. (Being written in the 1970s by an East German author, you can also insert your East Germany = GDR coding here.) It contains notable departures from history due to the theatre format (i.e. Katte gets shot, not beheaded - easier to do on stage - for example) - and includes an interlude where Fritz, Wilhelmine and Katte play what we call "Blinde Kuh" in German (old party game where someone gets blindfolded and has to figure out identities of the other people in the room), Katte is the one blindfolded, Fritz and Wilhelmine exchange clothes ("simultanously hinting", quoth our lecturer, "at the almost incesteous closeness of the siblings and their rivalry about Katte"), the predictable re: Katte ensues, and Wihlelmine then adopts a mask to play FW so Fritz can play-kill her, as he promptly does. But it's also the darkest of the three in that the last scene is one where Fritz as king has become his father, a woman cries for mercy for her husband, a deserting soldier, with the same phrases Fritz has used to plead for Katte earlier, and Fritz replies with his father's words. I.e. Müller goes for the "what was human in Fritz dies with Katte; FW wins beyond his wildest hopes" interpretation.
Roes' novel "Zeithain" I reviewed myself, and we've talked about it elsewhere. Our lecturer points out the difference in discourse in three centuries re: sexuality - i.e. not only are Fritz and Katte explicitly lovers in this one, but also the other first person narrator, contemporary to us Philip Stanhope, is gay and in love with the Katte of his imagination - and Roes' little nods to his predecessors, some of which I missed, such as him calling Katte's invented aunt, at whom Katte addresses the fictional letters from the novel, being called "Melusine" - this is a Fontane heroine from a unrelated to Katte novel, not the French countess and werecreature of myth, though Fontane called his heroine after her, of course. Since Stanhope is very obviously an author alter ego, the lecturer talks about the play of first person narrration in three identities - Katte, Philip Stanhope and Michael Roes.
Afterwards, there's a discussion among audience, and I was fascinated that almost all of the questioners were men, because at most conferences I attended, two thirds were women. Anyway, most of the questions aimed at whether the increasing emphasis on "gay love story" was due to the relaxation of the taboo of talking about homosexuality, and whether or not something was also lost by the "privatisation" of the story, i.e. the incendiary politics of the whole situation. Another question was about the possibility (or lack of same) of friendship in a very hierarchical society, and the lecturer went as far back as Cicero about friendship between the ranks. All lin all, very interesting, but note: not a historical conference about the historical Katte and Fritz, just about their literary reflectionis.
Second post with proper thanks to you and cahn later that day, I must be off to breakfeast.
Re: The Lecture, summarized
Between the title and the slides I was able to read, I was aware the lecture was a literary take on the subject, not historical, but that is still of great interest to me, especially as someone who, ahem, writes Fritz/Katte fanfic. ;)
Fritz as king has become his father, a woman cries for mercy for her husband, a deserting soldier, with the same phrases Fritz has used to plead for Katte earlier, and Fritz replies with his father's words.
Oh, damn. Does Fritz do the "It would be better for him to die than for justice to pass out of the world" line? Because if so, OOOUUUCH. /o\
I.e. Müller goes for the "what was human in Fritz dies with Katte; FW wins beyond his wildest hopes" interpretation.
As you know, I both agree and disagree with this interpretation. It's undeniable that so many of King Friedrich's life choices were him rationalizing what was done to him. And much of his leadership style was in clear imitation of his father. But Fritz's general fucked-up-ed-ness, imo, came both from the traumatic upbringing and from someone of his personality being handed absolute power plus an army in his society. Absolute power is a *drug*. FW and his traumatic parenting style get way too much credit for "Frederick the Great." Fritz had a strong enough personality and enough resistance to so many of his father's attempts to bend him that I'm convinced much of the post-1740 period was sheer Fritz in context, not Fritz "broken and remolded," as one person put it.
Furthermore, even when we're talking about the effects of the trauma, which were many, I think there's a tendency for eyes to be drawn to the Katte execution, because it's so shocking and in-your-face. It was almost certainly the worst acute trauma Fritz ever had to suffer. But people often react differently to acute and chronic trauma, and a lot of Fritz's reactions later in life make the most sense to me when I view them in the light of the chronic trauma, e.g. the post-Katte "rehabilitation" period in Küstrin.
Katte's invented aunt, at whom Katte addresses the fictional letters from the novel, being called "Melusine" - this is a Fontane heroine from a unrelated to Katte novel, not the French countess and werecreature of myth, though Fontane called his heroine after her, of course.
Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know any of that. (Well, aside from the mythological Melusine, of course.) And yes, I've always been fascinated that one of our major sources on Katte is a travel guide!
the other first person narrator, contemporary to us Philip Stanhope, is...in love with the Katte of his imagination
Aren't we all. ;) (I mean, with an imaginary Katte, not necessarily the one of Stanhope's imagination.)
Re: The Lecture, summarized
(Anonymous) 2019-09-19 07:39 pm (UTC)(link)No idea, since I confess I haven't read the play myself, nor seen it on stage, though since Müller is a modern classic by now, I should be able to get his collected plays at my library once I'm back home. (I met him once in Los Angeles, Heiner Müller that is, though it was in passing since I was getting shown the house he had a current scholalrship in and I would have a scholarship in the next year.) The lecturer didn't quote what Müller lets Fritz say verbatim, he just says that it's the same thing FW says earlier in the play.
Also, you're too kind with the BNF, I dabble in this era at best, but I do enjoy it, and conversations with people who care about historical characters as passionately as I do - even if they're not all the same characters - are exhilarating and inspiring to me.
Re: trauma - yes. Btw, another thing the lecturer pointed out that Carlos in Schiller's "Don Carlos" gets to deal (i.e. mourn, despair, try with new resolution etc.) with the death of his beloved friend right in front of him, however briefly (since he himself is doomed when the play ends), whereas in the three works he majorly focuses on, this isn't the case - Fontane's Katte section is explicitly about him, not Fritz, ditto Roes' novel "Zeithain", and while Müller's play shows post-Katte Friedrich in the last scene, it's to hammer home his devastating conclusion. The grieving process for the loss of friend and friendship both thus isn't there in any of the three.
Travel Guide as key source: Some Fontane background might not be amiss. He's interesting in his own right, with both parents descendants of French emigrants to Prussia (courtesy of Louis XIV revoking the edict of Nantes), hence his father being called Louis, not Ludwig, for example. His father was an apothocary and gambler not good at gambling with high flying plans doomed to falter every time, but a great story and anecdote teller, and a big Napoleon fan who had an anedcote about each of the marshals, for example, and young Theo role played Marshal Ney for his dad, for example. (All in good humor. Louis F. brought his family near bankruptcy more than once but adored his kids and loved playing with them.) Mom was more strict, but she had to be (thankless job that it was - Theo said as a child, he prefered Dad and only growing up understood they'd all have been out on the street if not for his mother playing bad cop now and then). Anyway, collecting anecdotes and telling them at all kinds of occasions was something that came natural to Theodor Fontane due to this heritage. He worked as a jouirnalist for a good long while, where this came in handy, and "Wanderungen durch die Mark Brandenburg" - where the Katte interlude is from - is of his transition period between journalist and full time novelist. His other famous travel book is "Jenseits des Tweed", inspired by the time he was a correspondant in Britain and holidayed in Scotland when not working in London.
Re: The Lecture, summarized
Look. Right now, there are 3 people active in my corner of this fandom, and you're the only German speaker. That makes you the BNF. :PP
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I feel like I know almost nothing, certainly in terms of how things fit together, about Greek and Roman... anything. Like, I know fairly basic historic facts about Julius Caesar and Augustus and Cleopatra and etc., mostly from Shakespeare and reading around Shakespeare. And reading Judith Tarr's historical novels :PP And scattered things about random emperors here and there. But that's about it.
(I guess that's still more than I knew about Frederick the Great, though! So there's that.)
Re: The Lecture, summarized
I would be game for tag-teaming Classics education via entertainment if
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