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[cahn]

This is totally too good to keep to myself: on my "I showed my family opera clips" post, mildred_of_midgard and selenak are talking about Frederick the Great (by way of Don Carlo, of course) and it is like this amazing virtuoso spontaneous thing and whoa

Things I knew about Frederick the Great before a year ago: he was king of... Prussia??

Additional things I knew about Frederick the Great before the last couple of days: selenak informed me last year that he and his dad may well have been at least somewhat the inspiration for Schiller's Don Carlos, and everything that goes with that: his dad (Friedrich Wilhelm, henceforth FW) was majorly awful, he had a boyfriend (Katte) who was horribly killed by his dad

Only a partial list of the additional things I now know about Frederick the Great (henceforth "Fritz") and associated historical figures due to mildred and selenak:
-Fritz and Katte's escape plan (which resulted in Katte's execution) was... really, really boneheaded. As boneheaded as opera plots! :P
-Katte was in the process of destroying 1,500 letters when he got caught (! puts all those letters in Don Carlos into perspective) (ETA: but also see mildred's comment below)
-Fritz wrote opera libretti and so did his sister
-Fritz decided to use himself as an experimental test subject to see if it was entirely possible to do without sleep via the application of coffee WITH PEPPERCORNS AND MUSTARD
-Fritz wrote a poem about orgasm that also reads as if he's never actually, like, had sex (although that was not in this post, it was in the comments to this one)
-FW apparently beat up George II when they were kids
-I am totally not even going to try to summarize the discussion about FW's "rationalized sadism" and sexual hangups and the reeeeeally bizarre Dresden interlude (go down a couple of comments for the really insane stuff)
-Fritz' sister Wilhemina wrote tell-all memoirs about her totally insane family which I am SUPER going to read now, watch this space

Also, there is apparently some subplot involving Russian fanboys that introduces an entirely new cast of people which I am dying to find out about

Comments

[cahn]

Haha, yeah, I wouldn't have noticed that before taking singing lessons. But now I know how hard it is to sing even when one is upright, much less in odd contorted positions. And I'd think at that angle you're stressing the same abdominal muscles you use to sing!

[NOTE: I wrote the rest of this comment while on a plane (yes, I have this version of Don Carlo offline to reference :P) and before iberiandoctor pointed out that Hampson/Alagna is a much better Fritz/Katte reference. I have also fixed that comment, by the way, to link you to the death scene in that one:
link to comment: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/158748.html?thread=1018652#cmt1018652
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1eIhYz4DgIj4YhJdwRo8aBpKqHkJja1BZ
]

I didn't have time when writing the last comment to point you to other Posa parts but I'm going to now, because if you think of Rodrigo, Marquis de Posa as Katte and Carlo as Fritz I think you'll enjoy these too. (If not, then of course you don't have to watch it :) ) Same link as parented up: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1hCf6wiMZgqYf-2LrvSqO9AsAt0R_0H0a

-Early on, Rodrigo and Carlo sing a duet affirming their friendship ("Dieu, tu semas dans nos âmes" / "Dio, che nell'alma infondere"). This is widely regarded in Don Carlo fandom as a love duet :P (I really like friendships in my fandoms and therefore I was probably the only person who didn't emphatically ship them, but now that I know about the Katte reference I see it's more of a canon ship than I thought...) 36:21 to 44:32. (Notes on this: 1. See Simon run! It's kind of amazing to actually run onto stage and then sing, not too many singers can manage this, but he does this all the time. Showoff :D (I'm really joking here. I saw Keenlyside give a masterclass last year and he was the nicest person ever.) 2. Look at his reaction when Carlo says he's in love with the Queen (okay, fine, they couldn't make this ALL Frederick/Katte), lol. He's been asked to make this shippy! 3. I have another video of this same staging with Keenlyside (though a different Carlo) and he plays it a little gentler; this Rodrigo is a little more soldierly and aggressive. Not sure how you envision Katte, although I (who know not much about him besides what you guys have told me) think of him as a little gentler than Keenlyside plays Rodrigo here. I can of course find that one for you as well :P This one is better though as a first introduction to Don Carlo because the videography is SO much better than the other one that it's clearly very exciting even if you don't care about the music, which you don't.)

-Here's where Posa takes Carlo's letters. You don't have to watch the trio preceding (where he gets into a scuffle with the Princess Eboli), although I like it too because Rodrigo's all "I keep having to get my boy Carlo out of trouble!" I just really like how the letters bit is staged in this version --

I'll have to give you some background here, as this is similar to but differs from the Schiller selenak and I have discussed previously. In the opera (second act, ~1:35:30) Carlo has gotten a note to meet him at the garden at night. He is in love with the Queen so assumes she has written the note. It was actually written by the Princess Eboli, who is in love with Carlo. (Carlo is kind of a failboat, if we didn't make this clear before.) Carlo meets this veiled lady -- in a scene which I believe is cut in revision (and is certainly cut in this production), it is clear that Eboli is wearing the Queen's veil so as to maximize plot confusion -- and gets all excited until he realizes it's Eboli, at which point he tries to put her off (even though Eboli points out she can help him, that he's in danger, that Posa and the King have been talking about him...). Eboli, meanwhile, because of the veil, realizes he must be in love with the Queen!

At this point Rodrigo who is apparently stalking Carlo in the evenings because his boyfriend jumps in (1:39:22 will give you a little of the flavor before the trio plus trio, but if you don't want to listen to the trio read on) and threatens Eboli if she tells everyone that Carlo is in love with the Queen; he almost stabs her at one point (but Carlo prevents him). Notably, he also threatens her with being the favorite of the King, which Carlo hears and is taken aback by, thus his reaction in -- and finally this is the place for Carlo/Rodrigo interaction -- 1:46:07 to end of act at 1:48:10.

(You may not notice, but the tune that plays at the end of this bit is the same as in the "love duet." This tune also comes back in the middle of Rodrigo's death scene, although when I watch it I'm always so emotional that I never really notice.)

-Also, auto-da-fe in this version, still sad pandas although out of context I like the first clip I showed you better. But this one has a swordfight! Here: 2:04:24 to 2:07:19, although rewinding a couple of minutes will show you the Flanders delegation and everything just ramping up. (Posa's shellshocked face as they take Carlo away, omg.)

[mildred_of_midgard]

Thank you for all this! My attention span for audio-visual media is very short, so I'm watching only a bit at a time, but I started with the part where you asked me about Keenlyside vs. Katte.

Notes:

1. OOMMMGG SOO SHIPPY THIS IS SHIPPIER THAN THE DEATH SCENE \O/ \O/ \O/ <333

I really like friendships in my fandoms and therefore I was probably the only person who didn't emphatically ship them, but now that I know about the Katte reference I see it's more of a canon ship than I thought...

Yes, sorry, I love friendships too, but canon ship is canon. :P

2. See Simon run! Heee.

3. Rodrigo's reaction to (I started to type 'Fr', lol) Carlo's declaration of love is exactly how I (and most of AO3) imagine Katte reacting Fritz proposing escape. "Betraying your king? Your country? Your oath?? No, no, you're suffering, nothing else matters to me." I really think that one line perfectly encapsulates Katte's struggles over his divided loyalties: Fritz's suffering and Katte's love for him won out over everything else: Katte's oaths, his desire not to let down his own family, his sense of self-preservation, everything. Not without a struggle. But I think every time he went around and around in his head, agonizing over what the right thing to do was, he came back to "Fritz is suffering."

Not sure how you envision Katte, although I (who know not much about him besides what you guys have told me) think of him as a little gentler than Keenlyside plays Rodrigo here.

Weeelll, it's really hard to get a read on Katte. There's so little evidence. I mean, for Fritz we have 76 volumes in his own hand, plus a gazillion eyewitness volumes, and the #1 word most used of him by scholars is "enigma." Katte? We have a few paragraphs here and there, and two of our major sources didn't like him? It's really, really hard to draw many firm conclusions. Most of my growing sense of his personality is a fanon interpretation, one of many possible interpretations, rather than anything I would defend as canonical.

Reasoning backwards from Fritz, I would say that you probably had to have a certain amount of gentleness to get anywhere with him (I can't find the quote rn, but contemporaries said this too), which is not to say that you couldn't also be firm with him on occasion. IF you can trust Wilhelmine's account, Katte wrote in no uncertain terms to tell Fritz that he wasn't going to follow him into exile (but later said he would, so who knows). As discussed elsewhere, I get the impression Fritz was more strong-willed than Katte, BUT, 1) we have a very small data set for the latter, 2) their situations were radically different on that occasion, and 3) if you cherry-picked a data set of the same size from Fritz's life, you could get a picture of a vacillating individual as well.

All of which is to say, I saw nothing in Keenlyside's reaction here that couldn't have mirrored Katte's, although it's also possible to read Katte as someone who would have patted Fritz on the head while silently freaking out in his own head. After all, Wilhelmine's memoirs are, for many reasons, not the same thing as having the letter in Katte's hand saying, "Hell no, I won't go!" (We do have a letter in Katte's hand saying, "Remember when I tried to talk you out of this?" but as discussed, that was meant for a lot more eyes than just Fritz's. I don't think we actually *know* how gentle or otherwise he was about his reluctance.)

I have to say, I loooove how Rodrigo segues from "You're in love with the Queen WTAF??!" to "This is exactly why you should go to Flanders!" I get the impression that if Carlo had announced, "I have developed a sudden passion for collecting giraffes," Rodrigo would have reacted with, "What a coincidence! Flanders is the perfect place to use your newfound freedom of action to collect giraffes to your heart's content, aided and abetted by the grateful people whom you will save!" <-- Not!Katte.

Aaaaalso, I love how during the "fight for freedom" song near the end of that clip, Carlo is staring into space and Rodrigo keeps looking over at Carlo. Also Keenlyside's Determinator face next to Alagna's "I guess" face, haha. So awesome.

Carlo is kind of a failboat, if we didn't make this clear before.

This has been made clear to me, as has the fact that this opera should have been called Posa. :P

I can of course find that one for you as well :P

Yes, please. :P

[cahn]

ahahaha let's hook you up with "Dieu, tu semas dans nos âmes" in Hampson/Alagna. Less focus on Flanders, much more shippy, much more Fritz/Katte:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1eIhYz4DgIj4YhJdwRo8aBpKqHkJja1BZ
34:40 to 44:17)

I have to say, I loooove how Rodrigo segues from "You're in love with the Queen WTAF??!" to "This is exactly why you should go to Flanders!" I get the impression that if Carlo had announced, "I have developed a sudden passion for collecting giraffes," Rodrigo would have reacted with, "What a coincidence! Flanders is the perfect place to use your newfound freedom of action to collect giraffes to your heart's content, aided and abetted by the grateful people whom you will save!" <-- Not!Katte.

LOL YES. Rodrigo is a little... obsessed. Not Katte :)

I can of course find that one for you as well :P
Yes, please. :P

Here you go:
First half: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-PN_u3VGnBAjgHWw0THoCdjdO9PwxkfI
"Dio, che nell'alma infondere" part of scene starts at 35:25
Second half: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1TR7mEcK5UaUeKt_F0yCIbtVxaqx-GiSM
Death scene starts at 39:35.//

(This is my evil mastermind plan to get you into my fandom! Heheheheh.)

[mildred_of_midgard]

Less focus on Flanders, much more shippy, much more Fritz/Katte

OMGGGG, they're so huggy! I read a parody of Prisoner of Azkaban where one of the characters reacts to a Remus/Sirius interaction with, "You know, I think that counts as a marriage ceremony in Massachusetts now." (Thus thoroughly dating itself to 2004.) I watch Hampson and Alagna interact in this and I'm like, "Pretty sure that counts as wedding vows!"

This is my evil mastermind plan to get you into my fandom! Heheheheh.

Turnabout is fair play! You know, I had to go rewatch the bit where Keenlyside/Rodrigo/Katte says "You suffer? Then nothing else in the world matters to me," because that's the closest I will ever come to seeing RL Katte say that to Fritz. <33 And that's how you can tell I'm getting sucked in involuntarily. :P

Also, I kind of really like Keenlyside's facial expressions, irrespective of Katte. <3

Will continue watching the suggested clips at my slow pace, but definitely enjoying. Many thanks for luring me into the fringes of your fandom!

[cahn]

AHAHAHAHA yep. I also adore the bit where Rodrigue and Carlos are all distant while the priest is around, and as soon as he leaves Carlos basically jumps into Rodrigue's arms. SO CUTE.

Keenlyside has great facial expressions! <33333

I'm glad you're enjoying it! (And, of course, don't feel obligated to watch just because I gave you a bunch of clips :) )